Fordham Law EIW 2017 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Can we get started on this please? Grades, bid lists, interviews, callbacks...I'll start.

Ranking: Top 10% (somewhere in the top 6-8%, more specifically). Interested in NYC Big law and would like to do transactional work. My tentative bid list:

1. S & C
2. Davis, Polk
3. Cravath
4. Simpson Thatcher
5. Cleary Gottlieb
6. Latham
7. Skadden
8. Shearman & Sterling
9. Milbank
10. Debevoise
11. Cahill
12. Kirkland & Ellis
13. Paul, Weiss
14. Jones Day
15. White & Case
16. Weil
17. Morrison & Foerester
18. Fried Frank
19. Clifford Chance
20. Ropes & Gray
21. O’Melveney
22. Proskauer
23. Wilkie Farr
24. Mayer Brown
25. Akin Gump
26. Dechert
27. Reed Smith
28. Sidley
29. Baker McKenzie
30. Bracewell
31. Norton Rose
32. Cadwalader
33. Chadbourne
34. McDermott Will & Emery
35. Morgan Lewis

Any suggestions? I feel a little lost with the ranking system/spiel CPC has given us--it's almost like you have fewer options at the top of the class because you're not supposed to bid below your rank, so to speak (full disclosure: I'm not a snob and would be genuinely delighted to work at any of the above firms). How true is this thinking? Is there really no such thing as a "safety"? Can someone who has been through Fordham EIW weigh in?

[Anonymous User]

Rising 3L with a current SA at one of these firms, and offers from several others.

OCI/EIW is a black box; you may get an offer from one firm, but never make it past the screener phase at a peer firm. That's why the CPC says there are no safety firms. With your grades you can apply to any firm you'd like.

Some of your list doesn't make sense. For instance, you include both Norton Rose and Chadbourne. These firms are set to merge by the end of the year. Also, you included cadwalader. They've experienced such a mass exodus that I'm surprised they haven't ceased to exist already. Also, Dechert laid off a number of their first years in the past few months; business is slow and morale is real low.

Do you have something against Weil? They have really strong transactional practices and love Fordham. I would probably move them closer to the top. I'd also probably move Deb closer to the top, since they also took a lot of Fordham people last year (in fact, with your grades, you should be emailing them ASAP to try to get a pre-oci offer). You might also want to move kirkland higher.

[Anonymous User]

I'm in a similar boat. I think we applied for very similar firms overall but put our bids in a very different order. I think I also played it a bit more conservatively than OP. I'm top 10% (8-10% about) and hoping to go into transactional work. Real Estate is my preference but other than that I'm not too picky. If some of the choices on here seem a bit odd, it's probably because I liked the vibe of the firm from a reception or visit or other event.

1. Fried Frank
2. Sidley Austin
3. Paul Hastings
4. Weil
5. Debevoise
6. Kramer Levin
7. Akin
8. White and Case
9. Shearman
10. Mayer Brown
11. Katten
12. Cleary
13. Latham
14. Clifford
15. Proskauer
16. Latham
17. Kirkland
18. Davis Polk
19. Cooley
20. O’Melveny
21. Willkie
22. Gibson, Dunn
23. Chadbourne
24. Paul Weiss
25. Kaye Scholer
26. Schulte Roth
27. Cahill
28. Milbank
29. Winston Strawn
30. Cravath
31. Skadden
32. Linklaters
33. Ropes
34. Sullivan
35. Jones Day

[kay12345]

Some of your list doesn't make sense. For instance, you include both Norton Rose and Chadbourne. These firms are set to merge by the end of the year. Also, you included cadwalader. They've experienced such a mass exodus that I'm surprised they haven't ceased to exist already. Also, Dechert laid off a number of their first years in the past few months; business is slow and morale is real low.

Do you have something against Weil? They have really strong transactional practices and love Fordham. I would probably move them closer to the top. I'd also probably move Deb closer to the top, since they also took a lot of Fordham people last year (in fact, with your grades, you should be emailing them ASAP to try to get a pre-oci offer). You might also want to move kirkland higher.

OP here-- thanks for the advice, this is exactly the critique I was hoping for. Will definitely shift some of these around with this feeback in mind.

Can you please explain pre-oci offers? I have posted elsewhere and didn't get too much feedback. I was under the impression that mass mailing was only appropriate for firms not attending OCI--but it seems that's not true. Can you elaborate on this practice and your experience with it, if you have any?

[Anonymous User]

I'm in a similar boat. I think we applied for very similar firms overall but put our bids in a very different order. I think I also played it a bit more conservatively than OP. I'm top 10% (8-10% about) and hoping to go into transactional work. Real Estate is my preference but other than that I'm not too picky. If some of the choices on here seem a bit odd, it's probably because I liked the vibe of the firm from a reception or visit or other event.

I agree, it seems that you bid more conservatively than me--did you have any strategy for ranking your firms, besides your perception of them from receptions, etc.?

[Anonymous User]

I'm in a similar boat. I think we applied for very similar firms overall but put our bids in a very different order. I think I also played it a bit more conservatively than OP. I'm top 10% (8-10% about) and hoping to go into transactional work. Real Estate is my preference but other than that I'm not too picky. If some of the choices on here seem a bit odd, it's probably because I liked the vibe of the firm from a reception or visit or other event.

I agree, it seems that you bid more conservatively than me--did you have any strategy for ranking your firms, besides your perception of them from receptions, etc.?

Part of it was the receptions or just general vibes of the firm. That's why Kaye Scholer and Katten are up there. A lot of it is that I'm doing it conservatively. I'm trying to maximize my chances of an offer. I'm not terribly picky as long as the firm meets the few minimum criteria I set (transactional, decent exit options, not likely to have surprise layoffs, etc). So while there are firms I'd like to work for more than others, if they only give out one offer each OCI season, then I'm not really maximizing my chances of an offer. There are also a few weak spots on my resume, so if I get a sense that a particular firm might really value something I lack, then they're not really on the table, especially if they're stingy with their offers.

[Anonymous User]

Some of your list doesn't make sense. For instance, you include both Norton Rose and Chadbourne. These firms are set to merge by the end of the year. Also, you included cadwalader. They've experienced such a mass exodus that I'm surprised they haven't ceased to exist already. Also, Dechert laid off a number of their first years in the past few months; business is slow and morale is real low.

Do you have something against Weil? They have really strong transactional practices and love Fordham. I would probably move them closer to the top. I'd also probably move Deb closer to the top, since they also took a lot of Fordham people last year (in fact, with your grades, you should be emailing them ASAP to try to get a pre-oci offer). You might also want to move kirkland higher.

OP here-- thanks for the advice, this is exactly the critique I was hoping for. Will definitely shift some of these around with this feeback in mind.

Can you please explain pre-oci offers? I have posted elsewhere and didn't get too much feedback. I was under the impression that mass mailing was only appropriate for firms not attending OCI--but it seems that's not true. Can you elaborate on this practice and your experience with it, if you have any?

The CPC will tell you not to do it, but they only care about their numbers and not yours. Send an email to the recruiting person (found on the NALP website), attach your resume and ask to come in for an interview (there are plenty of examples on TLS you can use). With your grades (>10%) some firms (Skadden, Deb, DPW) will invite you in for a pre-oci interview (or at least thats how it worked for many last year).

[Anonymous User]

Some of your list doesn't make sense. For instance, you include both Norton Rose and Chadbourne. These firms are set to merge by the end of the year. Also, you included cadwalader. They've experienced such a mass exodus that I'm surprised they haven't ceased to exist already. Also, Dechert laid off a number of their first years in the past few months; business is slow and morale is real low.

Do you have something against Weil? They have really strong transactional practices and love Fordham. I would probably move them closer to the top. I'd also probably move Deb closer to the top, since they also took a lot of Fordham people last year (in fact, with your grades, you should be emailing them ASAP to try to get a pre-oci offer). You might also want to move kirkland higher.

OP here-- thanks for the advice, this is exactly the critique I was hoping for. Will definitely shift some of these around with this feeback in mind.

Can you please explain pre-oci offers? I have posted elsewhere and didn't get too much feedback. I was under the impression that mass mailing was only appropriate for firms not attending OCI--but it seems that's not true. Can you elaborate on this practice and your experience with it, if you have any?

The CPC will tell you not to do it, but they only care about their numbers and not yours. Send an email to the recruiting person (found on the NALP website), attach your resume and ask to come in for an interview (there are plenty of examples on TLS you can use). With your grades (>10%) some firms (Skadden, Deb, DPW) will invite you in for a pre-oci interview (or at least thats how it worked for many last year).

I'm not the guy you're replying to, but how does this work if you plan on bidding on the firm? Can you do both? Which way would be most favorable if you do plan to bid on them?

[fosterman90]

Here are some general pointers sort of specific to Fordham EIW:

In preparing your bidlist, use the following resources. No one resource will have everything you want unfortunately. The more data points you have, and the more a particular snippet of information is reenforced and backed up by other sources, the the better informed you will be and ultimately the better your list will be.

(a) Historical Bid/Offer Information from Career Center - The database is horrific and an absolute pain to use, but it pays off to suck it up and do it early on in the process when you have time and motivation. Make a spreadsheet/google doc with your firms and fill in the raw data going back 2-3 years for each firm. That way it is all in one place and you can look at trends by firm and compare firms year to year. Most importantly, you will only need to navigate that atrocious database once.

(b) NALP Directory of Law Firms - general information like whether there are minimum hours, how many lawyers, how many offices, practice areas, offer rate, size of summer class, diversity information, etc.

(c) Vault - besides the controversial rankings that Vault provides, there are useful nuggets of information available. I think the overview/why work here pages give you a sense of how firms see themselves (since the information is largely compiled from recruiting material and interviews with the managing and hiring partners). This is important because how firms see themselves/want to be seen can tell you a lot about them. If you take the information here with a grain of salt, it can be very useful.

(d) Chambers & Partners - generally credited band rankings by practice area and location. Good place to find peers of a particular firm in terms of quality of work, reputation, etc.

(e) TLS - Huge grain of salt with advice and information on TLS, but I personally think that for any firm you think you are serious about, TLS will have at least some useful information (positive and negative). Go to google and search "[law firm name] site:top-law-schools.com". This will give you all the threads that mention that firm. You can pretty quickly figure out which threads will be useful based on the title and the date. Note that you can sort the results by date to see the most recent stuff first.

You'll notice that I didn't include the firm's website. I honestly don't think for most firms you will find anything there that you haven't found in the other sources in a format that is quicker to read and easier to comprehend.

Some common sense pointers about making a bid list. Think about how many people a firm you are considering is interviewing. 21? 42? Whatever the case, 60% of the spots are firm chosen. So if a firm has 42 interview spots, that means they pick 25 of the interviews and student bids will account for the remaining 17. If you are really shooting for Weil, for instance, and you don't think your GPA will be among the 25 they pick to interview, you will want to bid high (like, #1 or 2) to get one of the remaining 17 interview spots. But be sure to cross reference with the Bid/Offer data from the Career Center. Has this firm every given an offer to a preference student or do they only offer to students among the 60% they choose to interview? If it's the latter, don't waste a top bid on that firm because chances are they just don't give offers to students they don't preselect.

Remember that if a firm you really like happens to aim for students below you in GPA ranking, you need to bid them high because firms yield protect just like schools. If you are top 5% and really want to work at Strook because of their strong real estate practice, you need to bid high and explain your interest in your cover letter. Chances are, you are not going to get a firm preselect interview.

Before Interviews:

Congratulations, you have finished bidding and now you have interviews. Take stock, make a calendar. I recommend making a single page sheet for each firm you will interview with. This way you can put sheets away in your folio once you are done with an interview and pull the next on out, you can take notes and add stuff as you go, and you won't be in the embarrassing position of having your interviewer see a piece of paper you have with another firm's name on it. Now is the time you should visit each firm's website. The sheet should have:

- in an upper corner, the date, time and room number of the interview. this is handy for quick access. EIW is a crazy time so making it easy and stress free is key.
- the firm name and lines for each of the basic stats (how many attorneys, how many offices, biggest practice areas, head office location, big recent cases, unique or differentiating qualities (e.g. Shearman = global reach, Cravath = rotation system))
- any information you have gathered about your interviewer if that information is available to you (partner? associate? Fordham grad? practice area? other previous firms or government experience you want to ask about?)
- questions you have specific to that firm or interviewer (not questions that can be easily answered by the firm's website) (e.g. how did you know you wanted to be a litigator?)
- names of any people you have met previously from recruiting events, students you know who summered, past work experience, etc. This is mostly just so you have organized your thoughts and really have everything you know about the firm on one piece of paper. Also, you may have a nice opportunity to share at some point that you spoke to so and so who said great things about the firm.

Good luck and remember--it's not crazy to spend 35 hours compiling a list of 35 firms, one of which may be your first legal employer. These are pretty big decision that will in some sense define the beginning of your career as a lawyer so don't take it lightly.

[Anonymous User]

Some of your list doesn't make sense. For instance, you include both Norton Rose and Chadbourne. These firms are set to merge by the end of the year. Also, you included cadwalader. They've experienced such a mass exodus that I'm surprised they haven't ceased to exist already. Also, Dechert laid off a number of their first years in the past few months; business is slow and morale is real low.

Do you have something against Weil? They have really strong transactional practices and love Fordham. I would probably move them closer to the top. I'd also probably move Deb closer to the top, since they also took a lot of Fordham people last year (in fact, with your grades, you should be emailing them ASAP to try to get a pre-oci offer). You might also want to move kirkland higher.

OP here-- thanks for the advice, this is exactly the critique I was hoping for. Will definitely shift some of these around with this feeback in mind.

Can you please explain pre-oci offers? I have posted elsewhere and didn't get too much feedback. I was under the impression that mass mailing was only appropriate for firms not attending OCI--but it seems that's not true. Can you elaborate on this practice and your experience with it, if you have any?

The CPC will tell you not to do it, but they only care about their numbers and not yours. Send an email to the recruiting person (found on the NALP website), attach your resume and ask to come in for an interview (there are plenty of examples on TLS you can use). With your grades (>10%) some firms (Skadden, Deb, DPW) will invite you in for a pre-oci interview (or at least thats how it worked for many last year).

I'm not the guy you're replying to, but how does this work if you plan on bidding on the firm? Can you do both? Which way would be most favorable if you do plan to bid on them?

A bird in the hand . . . Its better to have an offer today than an interview tomorrow. I recommend reaching out prior to OCI and trying to snag a pre-OCI interview. If you get a screener before OCI & an interview at OCI, you'll drop the interview at OCI (which allows a fellow student to pick it up and have their shot).

[Anonymous User]

Any updates from Fordham peeps now that EIW schedules are available?

[Anonymous User]

Didn't do so hot. Top ten percent but only thirteen interviews. Only a few hire large classes from Fordham so it's full on panic attack time.

Cooley

Milbank

Latham

Ropes

Willkie

Clifford

Mayer

Proskauer

Shearman

Jones Day

Norton Rose

Paul Hastings

White and Case.

Obviously opted in to everything. I didn't mass mail the firms I bid on (probably a mistake) so do I mail them now or hope to get an opt in interview? Or both?

[Anonymous User]

Didn't do so hot. Top ten percent but only thirteen interviews. Only a few hire large classes from Fordham so it's full on panic attack time.

Cooley

Milbank

Latham

Ropes

Willkie

Clifford

Mayer

Proskauer

Shearman

Jones Day

Norton Rose

Paul Hastings

White and Case.

Obviously opted in to everything. I didn't mass mail the firms I bid on (probably a mistake) so do I mail them now or hope to get an opt in interview? Or both?

I get your concern, but 13 screeners is still a good amount. What are your other stats--are you on a journal or are you part of a competition team? Good undergrad? How does your resume look--could it look better? Clearly the issue is not your LS grades.

I am also in top 10%, and I got 27 screeners (FWIW I did not mass mail any of these firms, so I don't think that's where you went wrong). I didn't get some firms towards the top of my list, however, so I plan on emailing their respective NALP contacts with my resume, grade sheet, and an enthusiastic, but not desperate, cover letter. I also plan on visiting the hospitality suite during OCI. What else can you do?

[Anonymous User]

Didn't do so hot. Top ten percent but only thirteen interviews. Only a few hire large classes from Fordham so it's full on panic attack time.

Cooley

Milbank

Latham

Ropes

Willkie

Clifford

Mayer

Proskauer

Shearman

Jones Day

Norton Rose

Paul Hastings

White and Case.

Obviously opted in to everything. I didn't mass mail the firms I bid on (probably a mistake) so do I mail them now or hope to get an opt in interview? Or both?

I get your concern, but 13 screeners is still a good amount. What are your other stats--are you on a journal or are you part of a competition team? Good undergrad? How does your resume look--could it look better? Clearly the issue is not your LS grades.

I am also in top 10%, and I got 27 screeners (FWIW I did not mass mail any of these firms, so I don't think that's where you went wrong). I didn't get some firms towards the top of my list, however, so I plan on emailing their respective NALP contacts with my resume, grade sheet, and an enthusiastic, but not desperate, cover letter. I also plan on visiting the hospitality suite during OCI. What else can you do?

No journal or competition team which I'm assuming is the issue. Good extracurriculars aside from those which clearly doesn't mean much. Great undergrad.

I get not getting screeners from the top firms but missing out on ones like Katten and Schulte is what I'm most shocked by.

I'm worried that I won't land anything because all buta few have low hiring numbers.

[Anonymous User]

Just outside top 33%, secondary journal.

12 EIW, 1 Resume Advance, 3 mass mail interviews so far

[Its_Thyme]

So, just thought I'd give everyone here a laugh. I have 5 interviews. 4 EIW, 1 Advance. They range from Vault 1 to Vault 80ish, and I know a couple of the loftier ones were not lottery because I ranked them pathetically low on my bid list.

In other words, this is all a crap shoot, don't listen to people's bs (especially not the CPC's), and kill the game till you have yourself a job.

EDITED because I'm an idiot

[Its_Thyme]

Didn't do so hot. Top ten percent but only thirteen interviews. Only a few hire large classes from Fordham so it's full on panic attack time.

Cooley

Milbank

Latham

Ropes

Willkie

Clifford

Mayer

Proskauer

Shearman

Jones Day

Norton Rose

Paul Hastings

White and Case.

Obviously opted in to everything. I didn't mass mail the firms I bid on (probably a mistake) so do I mail them now or hope to get an opt in interview? Or both?

Why does it look like OP is posting as someone else and then responding to themselves? Maybe it's because I'm a TLS novice, but that's what it looks like.

[Anonymous User]

[/quote] Why does it look like OP is posting as someone else and then responding to themselves? Maybe it's because I'm a TLS novice, but that's what it looks like.[/quote]

Does it matter? Let's keep this a supportive space where Fordham students feel free to discuss their job searches.

[Anonymous User]

Didn't do so hot. Top ten percent but only thirteen interviews. Only a few hire large classes from Fordham so it's full on panic attack time.

Cooley

Milbank

Latham

Ropes

Willkie

Clifford

Mayer

Proskauer

Shearman

Jones Day

Norton Rose

Paul Hastings

White and Case.

Obviously opted in to everything. I didn't mass mail the firms I bid on (probably a mistake) so do I mail them now or hope to get an opt in interview? Or both?

Why does it look like OP is posting as someone else and then responding to themselves? Maybe it's because I'm a TLS novice, but that's what it looks like.

Nah. I'm not OP. I just want to retain some anonymity on here.

[Anonymous User]

Any more Fordham feedback? Anyone contacting firms they didn't get interviews with? Trying to figure out a tactful way to beg for a pre-OCI interview.

[Anonymous User]

Grades around median. Secondary journal and extremely conservative bidding strategy focusing on NJ firms. Received 10 interviews, mainly in NJ which was expected as I bid the highest on them. However also received an unexpected interview at Mayer Brown which I ranked 32 on my list so I doubt Fordham matched me there, but I guess it's possible. Any recommendations for how to handle this interview at a firm that I feel like I have no chance at getting an offer?

[Anonymous User]

Grades around median. Secondary journal and extremely conservative bidding strategy focusing on NJ firms. Received 10 interviews, mainly in NJ which was expected as I bid the highest on them. However also received an unexpected interview at Mayer Brown which I ranked 32 on my list so I doubt Fordham matched me there, but I guess it's possible. Any recommendations for how to handle this interview at a firm that I feel like I have no chance at getting an offer?

This may be stating the obvious but if I were you, I'd research the hell out of the firm and make sure you present yourself (1) as a person anybody would want to work with (hardworking, upbeat) and similarly (2) in a way that aligns with the firm culture. You have a real opportunity here to make a great impression.

I'd also take a good hard look at my transcript if I were you. If there is an upward trend in your grades from Semester 1-2, point that out to your interviewer. Otherwise, think about what went wrong 1L year and have something to say to your interviewer about how your grades are going to improve next semester.

[Anonymous User]

I'll add a data point...Top 33%, non law review journal, couple years decent work experience, 10 interviews.

[Anonymous User]

I'll add a data point...Top 33%, non law review journal, couple years decent work experience, 10 interviews.

Congrats! What kinds of firms?

[Anonymous User]

Any more Fordham feedback? Anyone contacting firms they didn't get interviews with? Trying to figure out a tactful way to beg for a pre-OCI interview.

Rising 3L finishing an SA now. You should be emailing any contacts you made the past year at firms that you either (1) didn't bid on or (2) didn't get an interview with, and seeing if they could squeeze you in. I went from 18 interviews to 24 or 27 this way, with one of these back-channel interviews leading to an offer (not the firm I am at). This should be done ASAP, as space is limited.