OCI Advice (CCBA) w/bad 1L grades Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm at the bottom bottom at Chicago. I thought I could test the waters with CCBA to see how it would play out before OCI. Would I have the best chance using my top bids on firms with large class sizes? I've also heard that indicating interest in other offices, such as NY, helps. Would I want to put, say Ropes, Jones, K&L, as my top bids if I indicate interest in the NY office as well as Chicago? I know I fucked up, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

[UVA2B]

Your bid list should be driven by Chicago's OCI grade/GPA data. Larger class sizes have probably dipped lower, and NYC classes are probably less grade sensitive generally. And you might have luck in secondary markets if you have ties because Chicago grads in Kansas City, for instance, are just fairly rare where they might take a liking to you. But that's only if you have ties.

You're at one of the few schools where you can legitimately be near the bottom of your class and still have a shot at Biglaw. But targeting firms like Ropes & Gray is probably not a great idea because they tend to be more grade sensitive (at least based on everything I've heard/seen about them). This data is available to you, and it's up to you to make best use of it.

[grades??]

I'm at the bottom bottom at Chicago. I thought I could test the waters with CCBA to see how it would play out before OCI. Would I have the best chance using my top bids on firms with large class sizes? I've also heard that indicating interest in other offices, such as NY, helps. Would I want to put, say Ropes, Jones, K&L, as my top bids if I indicate interest in the NY office as well as Chicago? I know I fucked up, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Good luck getting Ropes or Jones day at the bottom of your class. You need to focus on the larger, not grade sensitive firms AND be an excellent interviewer.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at the bottom bottom at Chicago. I thought I could test the waters with CCBA to see how it would play out before OCI. Would I have the best chance using my top bids on firms with large class sizes? I've also heard that indicating interest in other offices, such as NY, helps. Would I want to put, say Ropes, Jones, K&L, as my top bids if I indicate interest in the NY office as well as Chicago? I know I fucked up, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Good luck getting Ropes or Jones day at the bottom of your class. You need to focus on the larger, not grade sensitive firms AND be an excellent interviewer.

So would you suggest Kirkland & Sidley? I figured they would been even tougher.

[Anonymous User]

Your bid list should be driven by Chicago's OCI grade/GPA data. Larger class sizes have probably dipped lower, and NYC classes are probably less grade sensitive generally. And you might have luck in secondary markets if you have ties because Chicago grads in Kansas City, for instance, are just fairly rare where they might take a liking to you. But that's only if you have ties.

You're at one of the few schools where you can legitimately be near the bottom of your class and still have a shot at Biglaw. But targeting firms like Ropes & Gray is probably not a great idea because they tend to be more grade sensitive (at least based on everything I've heard/seen about them). This data is available to you, and it's up to you to make best use of it.

The reason I wanted to put Ropes and those firms is because they have larger class sizes, so I thought it would be easier. I have ties to LA (family lives there, + undergrad) so I figured Jones and Ropes (who are both interviewing for Chicago, as well as NY & LA) would be easier to get as well. No?

[UVA2B]

I'm at the bottom bottom at Chicago. I thought I could test the waters with CCBA to see how it would play out before OCI. Would I have the best chance using my top bids on firms with large class sizes? I've also heard that indicating interest in other offices, such as NY, helps. Would I want to put, say Ropes, Jones, K&L, as my top bids if I indicate interest in the NY office as well as Chicago? I know I fucked up, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Good luck getting Ropes or Jones day at the bottom of your class. You need to focus on the larger, not grade sensitive firms AND be an excellent interviewer.

So would you suggest Kirkland & Sidley? I figured they would been even tougher.

Maybe you're not getting this fully: K&E and Sidley are some of the more selective firms for the Chicago offices. They don't get dramatically less selective just because it's the NYC office.

Have you looked into getting the OCI data for Chicago? That'll be your best friend in crafting your bid list. Beggars, choosers, and all that. Find the least selective firms that your CSO (or OCS or whatever it's called at Chicago) show through data and target those firms.

[grades??]

I'm at the bottom bottom at Chicago. I thought I could test the waters with CCBA to see how it would play out before OCI. Would I have the best chance using my top bids on firms with large class sizes? I've also heard that indicating interest in other offices, such as NY, helps. Would I want to put, say Ropes, Jones, K&L, as my top bids if I indicate interest in the NY office as well as Chicago? I know I fucked up, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Good luck getting Ropes or Jones day at the bottom of your class. You need to focus on the larger, not grade sensitive firms AND be an excellent interviewer.

So would you suggest Kirkland & Sidley? I figured they would been even tougher.

I don't think you are getting the hint. You need to stop looking at the vault 20, or even likely the vault 40-50. I would probably start looking at Milbank and the way down the list from there. Im not being hyperbolic, but unless your dad is a managing partner at a vault 10 firm, you aren't getting one of those.

Listen, if you want a biglaw job, you need to focus on the vault 50+ with big classes in NYC. Do anything else and you run a real risk of striking out. Even then, you still are a good candidate for striking out given your awful grades (and striking out does happen to people with better grades than you).

[Anonymous User]

CCBA is primarily Chicago firms. A couple out of state, a couple who are Chicago but also interviewing for other cities.

Another thing to note is that it is 50% preselect, 50% lottery.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at the bottom bottom at Chicago. I thought I could test the waters with CCBA to see how it would play out before OCI. Would I have the best chance using my top bids on firms with large class sizes? I've also heard that indicating interest in other offices, such as NY, helps. Would I want to put, say Ropes, Jones, K&L, as my top bids if I indicate interest in the NY office as well as Chicago? I know I fucked up, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Good luck getting Ropes or Jones day at the bottom of your class. You need to focus on the larger, not grade sensitive firms AND be an excellent interviewer.

So would you suggest Kirkland & Sidley? I figured they would been even tougher.

I don't think you are getting the hint. You need to stop looking at the vault 20, or even likely the vault 40-50. I would probably start looking at Milbank and the way down the list from there. Im not being hyperbolic, but unless your dad is a managing partner at a vault 10 firm, you aren't getting one of those.

Listen, if you want a biglaw job, you need to focus on the vault 50+ with big classes in NYC. Do anything else and you run a real risk of striking out. Even then, you still are a good candidate for striking out given your awful grades (and striking out does happen to people with better grades than you).

I'm at the bottom bottom at Chicago. I thought I could test the waters with CCBA to see how it would play out before OCI. Would I have the best chance using my top bids on firms with large class sizes? I've also heard that indicating interest in other offices, such as NY, helps. Would I want to put, say Ropes, Jones, K&L, as my top bids if I indicate interest in the NY office as well as Chicago? I know I fucked up, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Good luck getting Ropes or Jones day at the bottom of your class. You need to focus on the larger, not grade sensitive firms AND be an excellent interviewer.

So would you suggest Kirkland & Sidley? I figured they would been even tougher.

Maybe you're not getting this fully: K&E and Sidley are some of the more selective firms for the Chicago offices. They don't get dramatically less selective just because it's the NYC office.

Have you looked into getting the OCI data for Chicago? That'll be your best friend in crafting your bid list. Beggars, choosers, and all that. Find the least selective firms that your CSO (or OCS or whatever it's called at Chicago) show through data and target those firms.

Ok, that makes sense. Right now, my bid list is V50+, then firms not ranked on Vault, then V10-30. Based on class size and selectivity.

[dabigchina]

massmail and career fairs are your best friends. Take a look at the list of firms/offices participating at CCBA and bid the ones that aren't going to your OCI. In addition, mass mail in markets you have ties to but aren't bidding on at OCI.

[TheoO]

I'm at the bottom bottom at Chicago. I thought I could test the waters with CCBA to see how it would play out before OCI. Would I have the best chance using my top bids on firms with large class sizes? I've also heard that indicating interest in other offices, such as NY, helps. Would I want to put, say Ropes, Jones, K&L, as my top bids if I indicate interest in the NY office as well as Chicago? I know I fucked up, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Good luck getting Ropes or Jones day at the bottom of your class. You need to focus on the larger, not grade sensitive firms AND be an excellent interviewer.

So would you suggest Kirkland & Sidley? I figured they would been even tougher.

Maybe you're not getting this fully: K&E and Sidley are some of the more selective firms for the Chicago offices. They don't get dramatically less selective just because it's the NYC office.

Have you looked into getting the OCI data for Chicago? That'll be your best friend in crafting your bid list. Beggars, choosers, and all that. Find the least selective firms that your CSO (or OCS or whatever it's called at Chicago) show through data and target those firms.

Sidley NY is not particularly selective. Plenty I know who are going there from CN are median/below.

[UVA2B]

I'm at the bottom bottom at Chicago. I thought I could test the waters with CCBA to see how it would play out before OCI. Would I have the best chance using my top bids on firms with large class sizes? I've also heard that indicating interest in other offices, such as NY, helps. Would I want to put, say Ropes, Jones, K&L, as my top bids if I indicate interest in the NY office as well as Chicago? I know I fucked up, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Good luck getting Ropes or Jones day at the bottom of your class. You need to focus on the larger, not grade sensitive firms AND be an excellent interviewer.

So would you suggest Kirkland & Sidley? I figured they would been even tougher.

Maybe you're not getting this fully: K&E and Sidley are some of the more selective firms for the Chicago offices. They don't get dramatically less selective just because it's the NYC office.

Have you looked into getting the OCI data for Chicago? That'll be your best friend in crafting your bid list. Beggars, choosers, and all that. Find the least selective firms that your CSO (or OCS or whatever it's called at Chicago) show through data and target those firms.

Sidley NY is not particularly selective. Plenty I know who are going there from CN are median/below.

True, I meant the Chicago office, and even if median or slightly below is the standard, that's not what we're talking about here. OP is not getting Sidley Chicago at the bottom of the class, even at UChicago.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Sidley is only interviewing for the Chicago office at CCBA so I'm not even bidding on them. Don't think I can put my exact bid list on here, don't know if that's the best idea, but this is my general bid list:


2-9: V40-100
10-21: non vault ranked Chicago firms
22-25: V20-40 (Chicago firms also interviewing for NY & LA offices)

[UVA2B]

OP here. Sidley is only interviewing for the Chicago office at CCBA so I'm not even bidding on them. Don't think I can put my exact bid list on here, don't know if that's the best idea, but this is my general bid list:


2-9: V40-100
10-21: non vault ranked Chicago firms
22-25: V20-40 (Chicago firms also interviewing for NY & LA offices)

This is pretty generic, but I think you're on the right track with this. Also make sure you're mass mailing every market you could possibly see yourself ending up in. This is not the time to be picky. Don't be afraid to fire off emails endlessly until you get bites. They're probably out there, but since your 1L grades didn't work out, it's time to put in the sweat equity by shotgunning as many markets as you can while hustling, networking, and killing your interview skills. No one is going to hire you because of your grades. You need to get them to hire you in spite of your grades, and while that's not easy, it's possible out of Chicago.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Sidley is only interviewing for the Chicago office at CCBA so I'm not even bidding on them. Don't think I can put my exact bid list on here, don't know if that's the best idea, but this is my general bid list:


2-9: V40-100
10-21: non vault ranked Chicago firms
22-25: V20-40 (Chicago firms also interviewing for NY & LA offices)

This is pretty generic, but I think you're on the right track with this. Also make sure you're mass mailing every market you could possibly see yourself ending up in. This is not the time to be picky. Don't be afraid to fire off emails endlessly until you get bites. They're probably out there, but since your 1L grades didn't work out, it's time to put in the sweat equity by shotgunning as many markets as you can while hustling, networking, and killing your interview skills. No one is going to hire you because of your grades. You need to get them to hire you in spite of your grades, and while that's not easy, it's possible out of Chicago.

Thank you. When would you suggest I start mass mailing? Should I wait until OCI interviews are handed out (end of July)?

[grades??]

OP here. Sidley is only interviewing for the Chicago office at CCBA so I'm not even bidding on them. Don't think I can put my exact bid list on here, don't know if that's the best idea, but this is my general bid list:


2-9: V40-100
10-21: non vault ranked Chicago firms
22-25: V20-40 (Chicago firms also interviewing for NY & LA offices)

This is pretty generic, but I think you're on the right track with this. Also make sure you're mass mailing every market you could possibly see yourself ending up in. This is not the time to be picky. Don't be afraid to fire off emails endlessly until you get bites. They're probably out there, but since your 1L grades didn't work out, it's time to put in the sweat equity by shotgunning as many markets as you can while hustling, networking, and killing your interview skills. No one is going to hire you because of your grades. You need to get them to hire you in spite of your grades, and while that's not easy, it's possible out of Chicago.

Thank you. When would you suggest I start mass mailing? Should I wait until OCI interviews are handed out (end of July)?

You should have started a week ago. You actually need to start tonight (seriously). Last summer, a lot of firms had SA's hired in June, if not by the start of July. No one is waiting for OCI anymore. I know two v20 firms in my market (major market- NYC/DC/Chicago) that filled their classes BEFORE oci started. You literally need to start asap.

[UVA2B]

OP here. Sidley is only interviewing for the Chicago office at CCBA so I'm not even bidding on them. Don't think I can put my exact bid list on here, don't know if that's the best idea, but this is my general bid list:


2-9: V40-100
10-21: non vault ranked Chicago firms
22-25: V20-40 (Chicago firms also interviewing for NY & LA offices)

This is pretty generic, but I think you're on the right track with this. Also make sure you're mass mailing every market you could possibly see yourself ending up in. This is not the time to be picky. Don't be afraid to fire off emails endlessly until you get bites. They're probably out there, but since your 1L grades didn't work out, it's time to put in the sweat equity by shotgunning as many markets as you can while hustling, networking, and killing your interview skills. No one is going to hire you because of your grades. You need to get them to hire you in spite of your grades, and while that's not easy, it's possible out of Chicago.

Thank you. When would you suggest I start mass mailing? Should I wait until OCI interviews are handed out (end of July)?

Yesterday. Today. Tomorrow. Whenever you have a cover letter and resume ready along with the appropriate contact at the firm, send it off. If you can find alumni at that firm, reach out for informational interviews. Make as many contacts and network as many opportunities as you possibly can. Be as available as you possibly can with every opportunity. You need to be just about the most accessible person you can be. You never know when that one person you meet at an event will lead to a relationship that could one day turn into an interview that maybe becomes an offer.

The more proactive you are, the better.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Sidley is only interviewing for the Chicago office at CCBA so I'm not even bidding on them. Don't think I can put my exact bid list on here, don't know if that's the best idea, but this is my general bid list:


2-9: V40-100
10-21: non vault ranked Chicago firms
22-25: V20-40 (Chicago firms also interviewing for NY & LA offices)

This is pretty generic, but I think you're on the right track with this. Also make sure you're mass mailing every market you could possibly see yourself ending up in. This is not the time to be picky. Don't be afraid to fire off emails endlessly until you get bites. They're probably out there, but since your 1L grades didn't work out, it's time to put in the sweat equity by shotgunning as many markets as you can while hustling, networking, and killing your interview skills. No one is going to hire you because of your grades. You need to get them to hire you in spite of your grades, and while that's not easy, it's possible out of Chicago.

Thank you. When would you suggest I start mass mailing? Should I wait until OCI interviews are handed out (end of July)?

You should have started a week ago. You actually need to start tonight (seriously). Last summer, a lot of firms had SA's hired in June, if not by the start of July. No one is waiting for OCI anymore. I know two v20 firms in my market (major market- NYC/DC/Chicago) that filled their classes BEFORE oci started. You literally need to start asap.

Thank you. Will do.

[grades??]

OP here. Sidley is only interviewing for the Chicago office at CCBA so I'm not even bidding on them. Don't think I can put my exact bid list on here, don't know if that's the best idea, but this is my general bid list:


2-9: V40-100
10-21: non vault ranked Chicago firms
22-25: V20-40 (Chicago firms also interviewing for NY & LA offices)

This is pretty generic, but I think you're on the right track with this. Also make sure you're mass mailing every market you could possibly see yourself ending up in. This is not the time to be picky. Don't be afraid to fire off emails endlessly until you get bites. They're probably out there, but since your 1L grades didn't work out, it's time to put in the sweat equity by shotgunning as many markets as you can while hustling, networking, and killing your interview skills. No one is going to hire you because of your grades. You need to get them to hire you in spite of your grades, and while that's not easy, it's possible out of Chicago.

Thank you. When would you suggest I start mass mailing? Should I wait until OCI interviews are handed out (end of July)?

You should have started a week ago. You actually need to start tonight (seriously). Last summer, a lot of firms had SA's hired in June, if not by the start of July. No one is waiting for OCI anymore. I know two v20 firms in my market (major market- NYC/DC/Chicago) that filled their classes BEFORE oci started. You literally need to start asap.

Thank you. Will do.

Best of luck, I hope it works out. But another poster said it well- no one is gonna hire you unless you impress them enough and get your foot in the door yourself. Every day you delay from here on out makes your odds worse and worse.

[Anonymous User]

Vault ranking does not equal firm selectivity. Yeah, White & Case is "V20," but it hires most of its class basically from median and below at every T13, and it should absolutely be at or near the top of a bidlist for someone with low grades at UChi. Telling people to apply to between V[#]~V[#] is dumb as fuck and you can fuck your legal career up following that advice.

Countless examples abound. Shearman (V36) is more selective than White & Case (V20). Cahill (V50) and Freshfields (V48) are both more selective than Paul Hastings (V24). Irell (V58) and Susman (V60) are more selective than just about any firm in the country with the exception of a handful of firms, and so on.

Rely on the past years' OCI data that your school provides + use NALP directory to get a list of firms that pull from median and below at UChi and that also has a SA class size of 20+. Taking class size into account is huge. Yeah, McDermott is a "V59" but its NY office hires like 5 SAs. It's a waste of a bid to place it high on your list. Firms with bigger classes make more offers. Be strategic about this. Small SA class size usually also means that the firm is more selective about non-quantifiable things like "fit" during the interview stage. Also be mindful about the differences between offices at the same firm (e.g., Kirkland Chi is harder to get than Kirkland NY).

UChi does well in NY and a lot of firms are willing to dip below median at UChi. Stay focused and you will come out with a job.

[PeanutsNJam]

TBH, firms like Katten, Dentons, or even Quarles & Brady should be above White & Case. Get an offer first and then shoot for reaches.

Assuming "bottom bottom" means like bottom 10%, not sorta below median.

[Vincent Adultman]

Unless you are URM I would caution against bidding Chicago. I would bid NYC.

[SmokeytheBear]

Vault ranking does not equal firm selectivity. Yeah, White & Case is "V20," but it hires most of its class basically from median and below at every T13, and it should absolutely be at or near the top of a bidlist for someone with low grades at UChi. Telling people to apply to between V[#]~V[#] is dumb as fuck and you can fuck your legal career up following that advice.

Countless examples abound. Shearman (V36) is more selective than White & Case (V20). Cahill (V50) and Freshfields (V48) are both more selective than Paul Hastings (V24). Irell (V58) and Susman (V60) are more selective than just about any firm in the country with the exception of a handful of firms, and so on.

Rely on the past years' OCI data that your school provides + use NALP directory to get a list of firms that pull from median and below at UChi and that also has a SA class size of 20+. Taking class size into account is huge. Yeah, McDermott is a "V59" but its NY office hires like 5 SAs. It's a waste of a bid to place it high on your list. Firms with bigger classes make more offers. Be strategic about this. Small SA class size usually also means that the firm is more selective about non-quantifiable things like "fit" during the interview stage. Also be mindful about the differences between offices at the same firm (e.g., Kirkland Chi is harder to get than Kirkland NY).

This should be at the top of any OCI thread.

[hangingtree]

Hustle, then hustle some more, but don't become a robot. Be that person you yourself would want to hire. Don't apologize for your grades, but at the same time be self-aware to know your place. Strike the right balance of being confident and eager, while not arrogant or off-putting.

I realize I'm basically saying be charming. It's not that hard, however, to charm an interviewer. Just show that you'd be a pleasure to work late nights with, can be relied upon to do your tasks thoroughly and generally be eager to do your job well. That's the perfect associate in a nutshell.

Don't approach this process with dread and anxiety, and don't lose yourself in it. Just focus on being the best version of yourself.

[Anonymous User]

Vault ranking does not equal firm selectivity. Yeah, White & Case is "V20," but it hires most of its class basically from median and below at every T13, and it should absolutely be at or near the top of a bidlist for someone with low grades at UChi. Telling people to apply to between V[#]~V[#] is dumb as fuck and you can fuck your legal career up following that advice.

Countless examples abound. Shearman (V36) is more selective than White & Case (V20). Cahill (V50) and Freshfields (V48) are both more selective than Paul Hastings (V24). Irell (V58) and Susman (V60) are more selective than just about any firm in the country with the exception of a handful of firms, and so on.

Rely on the past years' OCI data that your school provides + use NALP directory to get a list of firms that pull from median and below at UChi and that also has a SA class size of 20+. Taking class size into account is huge. Yeah, McDermott is a "V59" but its NY office hires like 5 SAs. It's a waste of a bid to place it high on your list. Firms with bigger classes make more offers. Be strategic about this. Small SA class size usually also means that the firm is more selective about non-quantifiable things like "fit" during the interview stage. Also be mindful about the differences between offices at the same firm (e.g., Kirkland Chi is harder to get than Kirkland NY).

UChi does well in NY and a lot of firms are willing to dip below median at UChi. Stay focused and you will come out with a job.

COULD NOT AGREE WITH YOU MORE