Summer Associate Class of 2017 Forum

[Anonymous User]

I totally understand if y'all don't like the substance of the work and would rather be doing something else. But yikes, sounds like you guys just don't want a job. All jobs -- Public Interest, small law, midlaw, nonlegal, etc. have inherent responsibilites (e.g., do your work, get evaluated by superiors, play nice in the office by going to work events, etc.).

Going to be a tough road to hoe if the minimal responsibilites of a SA have y'all so shaken.

Again, I totally understand if its the substance of the work, but it sounds like your gripes are about the stuff that is inherent in any job. Don't kid yourselves -- your friends at public interest gigs/etc. are being evaluated, forced to attend events, etc.

Yeah FWIW I probably exaggerate in my anonymous complaining, but I dislike the substance of the work and the culture of biglaw. I wanted to give it a try, but it's just a terrible fit for me. I really loved the mission oriented public sector job I had 1L summer - I thought it would be easy to be motivated by the paycheck, but apparently not. As for the events, I just don't like the people or the job enough to spend time at evening events when I don't plan on returning.

[A. Nony Mouse]

TBF, they seem to be talking about the mandatory socializing stuff. I'm in fedgov and there are almost no mandatory fun events. And being evaluated on showing up to "fun" events during a 10-week summer interview is different from actually doing a job.

[Anonymous User]

I hate this so much. Ugh

Same. Have even though about quitting, as insane as that is.

Me too! It helps to know I'm not the only person not loving the SA life.

For me one of the worst parts is that people keep pressuring me to act like it's fun. I mean, there's only so much to enjoy about hanging out with associates who seem miserable and burnt out and partners who are clearly evaluating me...at this point it would be a relief to show up and just do work (that will inevitably be useless or, worse, wrong) and then go the fuck home without talking to anyone.

For me it would be tolerable if it was once a week thing - but there are usually at least 3 events a week and they're not exactly optional. Hard to keep up when we go to all of these while the attorneys can pick and choose.

I totally understand if y'all don't like the substance of the work and would rather be doing something else. But yikes, sounds like you guys just don't want a job. All jobs -- Public Interest, small law, midlaw, nonlegal, etc. have inherent responsibilites (e.g., do your work, get evaluated by superiors, play nice in the office by going to work events, etc.).

Going to be a tough road to hoe if the minimal responsibilites of a SA have y'all so shaken.

Again, I totally understand if its the substance of the work, but it sounds like your gripes are about the stuff that is inherent in any job. Don't kid yourselves -- your friends at public interest gigs/etc. are being evaluated, forced to attend events, etc.

I'm not the PI poster. I'm aware of what non-law jobs are like because I did one for 8 years before going to law school. Lawyers are, for some reason, really, really intent on forcing other people to pretend to enjoy things that should be "fun" (notably, unhappy self-medicating drinking). It's disturbing and deeply unpleasant in a way that does not compare to a yearly Christmas party (at a place where you already, you know, have a job).

[Anonymous User]

I totally understand if y'all don't like the substance of the work and would rather be doing something else. But yikes, sounds like you guys just don't want a job. All jobs -- Public Interest, small law, midlaw, nonlegal, etc. have inherent responsibilites (e.g., do your work, get evaluated by superiors, play nice in the office by going to work events, etc.).

Going to be a tough road to hoe if the minimal responsibilites of a SA have y'all so shaken.

Again, I totally understand if its the substance of the work, but it sounds like your gripes are about the stuff that is inherent in any job. Don't kid yourselves -- your friends at public interest gigs/etc. are being evaluated, forced to attend events, etc.

I'm not the PI poster. I'm aware of what non-law jobs are like because I did one for 8 years before going to law school. Lawyers are, for some reason, really, really intent on forcing other people to pretend to enjoy things that should be "fun" (notably, unhappy self-medicating drinking). It's disturbing and deeply unpleasant in a way that does not compare to a yearly Christmas party (at a place where you already, you know, have a job).

I'm the PI poster - FWIW also worked for ~5 years before law school in the private sector.

Also 100% share your sentiments about the "fun."

[Anonymous User]

I mean, that post about how we're clearly flawed human beings for not enjoying our SAs enough really just proves my point. Someone isn't enjoying their SA. A lawyer, not really knowing anything about what it's actually like for that person (because there are serious differences between different programs, people, experiences, even in the same firm) gets defensive and critical and insists that not liking something that has been determined by the legal hive mind to be enjoyable/easy is obviously a reflection of some kind of serious inability to have a career. It's so narrow-minded and weirdly controlling.

Like, what about someone who is introverted or shy and doesn't like meeting a ton of new people all the time? What about a person from a non-White non-UMC background who has to work a lot harder to figure out what the appropriate behavior is? What about someone who has a personal or family emergency during their SA and isn't in a good place for extended unstructured socializing? What about someone who has an alcohol problem and is trying to avoid it? All of those people just obviously can't have a career because they're not finding their SA to be a nonstop party?

[clshopeful]

[someone, go answer my question is the student section, regarding diversity/state court]

[Anonymous User]

I mean, that post about how we're clearly flawed human beings for not enjoying our SAs enough really just proves my point. Someone isn't enjoying their SA. A lawyer, not really knowing anything about what it's actually like for that person (because there are serious differences between different programs, people, experiences, even in the same firm) gets defensive and critical and insists that not liking something that has been determined by the legal hive mind to be enjoyable/easy is obviously a reflection of some kind of serious inability to have a career. It's so narrow-minded and weirdly controlling.

Like, what about someone who is introverted or shy and doesn't like meeting a ton of new people all the time? What about a person from a non-White non-UMC background who has to work a lot harder to figure out what the appropriate behavior is? What about someone who has a personal or family emergency during their SA and isn't in a good place for extended unstructured socializing? What about someone who has an alcohol problem and is trying to avoid it? All of those people just obviously can't have a career because they're not finding their SA to be a nonstop party?

Thank youuuu. Doesn't even have to be an emergency. I'd rather be around my family than some tipsy 24 yr olds.

[buckiguy_sucks]

Smh this thread used to be about models and bottles and what days to wear suits and Allen Edmonds what has happened to it

[BlendedUnicorn]

Yeah, I mean TLS tried to tell y'all that it's a terrible profession.

[Anonymous User]

Maybe it's because I come from humble beginnings, but there are many worse things I can imagine doing for $35k gross for 10 weeks of "work" and forced social events. If it's not for you, don't accept the offer; still going to be a fantastic credential on your resume. Unless you're working like a Cravath summer, I don't see a justifiable reason to complain.

[Anonymous User]

Where are you all working? Damn.

I have found the after-work socializing events to be tiresome if it's 3 in a row and I have some type of deadline by the end of the week. But it's not every week and I deal. It helps that I like what I am doing, like the people I meet (some can be dry/let's just talk about sports), the other summer associates are cool, I know no one else in the city, and hey it's free food at the very least.

I'm a URM and a woman but living in the US and being ambitious generally meant that I had to interact in a lot of white spaces. While I may unconsciously gravitate toward the very few other minorities at the firm, it doesn't mean that I do not get along with or have great mentorship from other people. Generally I try to ask about personal life and hobbies instead of the dry/boring old "So, you've been asked this question 99 times and now it's my shot as we stand at a bar together to ask you what you do."

Despite all this, I have noticed that it's harder for me to talk to my friends with more 'conventional' jobs and/or those who are back to school for a MAs. They literally don't understand how the SA experience is/advise me to not go to events when they're all mandatory.

[RaceJudicata]

I mean, that post about how we're clearly flawed human beings for not enjoying our SAs enough really just proves my point. Someone isn't enjoying their SA. A lawyer, not really knowing anything about what it's actually like for that person (because there are serious differences between different programs, people, experiences, even in the same firm) gets defensive and critical and insists that not liking something that has been determined by the legal hive mind to be enjoyable/easy is obviously a reflection of some kind of serious inability to have a career. It's so narrow-minded and weirdly controlling.

Like, what about someone who is introverted or shy and doesn't like meeting a ton of new people all the time? What about a person from a non-White non-UMC background who has to work a lot harder to figure out what the appropriate behavior is? What about someone who has a personal or family emergency during their SA and isn't in a good place for extended unstructured socializing? What about someone who has an alcohol problem and is trying to avoid it? All of those people just obviously can't have a career because they're not finding their SA to be a nonstop party?

Woah, settle down. I didn't say you had to enjoy it and I definitely don't give a crap if you are enjoying the internship- I said that your complaints would exist at just about any corporate internship (that is, social events, evaluations, forced socialization). Nor was I defensive. SA gigs are, on aggregate, pretty easy... the fact that some folks are ready to walk out and quit or mail it in after 5 weeks is pretty soft, tbh.

also, your second paragraph - part of adulting is dealing with uncomfortable situations. No job is going to perfectly match every possible personality or personal situation. .

I guess my overall point is this: you don't have to like the job, you definitely don't have to accept the job, but your current reasons seem petty.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Well, you originally said "inherent in any job," not "just about any corporate internship," and I don't think that's true.

[BasilHallward]

In other news, corporate section sucks. I didn't realize going into an SA HOW MUCH sections vary culturally. I mean damn, talk about depressing.

[Anonymous User]

I mean, that post about how we're clearly flawed human beings for not enjoying our SAs enough really just proves my point. Someone isn't enjoying their SA. A lawyer, not really knowing anything about what it's actually like for that person (because there are serious differences between different programs, people, experiences, even in the same firm) gets defensive and critical and insists that not liking something that has been determined by the legal hive mind to be enjoyable/easy is obviously a reflection of some kind of serious inability to have a career. It's so narrow-minded and weirdly controlling.

Like, what about someone who is introverted or shy and doesn't like meeting a ton of new people all the time? What about a person from a non-White non-UMC background who has to work a lot harder to figure out what the appropriate behavior is? What about someone who has a personal or family emergency during their SA and isn't in a good place for extended unstructured socializing? What about someone who has an alcohol problem and is trying to avoid it? All of those people just obviously can't have a career because they're not finding their SA to be a nonstop party?

Woah, settle down. I didn't say you had to enjoy it and I definitely don't give a crap if you are enjoying the internship- I said that your complaints would exist at just about any corporate internship (that is, social events, evaluations, forced socialization). Nor was I defensive. SA gigs are, on aggregate, pretty easy... the fact that some folks are ready to walk out and quit or mail it in after 5 weeks is pretty soft, tbh.

also, your second paragraph - part of adulting is dealing with uncomfortable situations. No job is going to perfectly match every possible personality or personal situation. .

I guess my overall point is this: you don't have to like the job, you definitely don't have to accept the job, but your current reasons seem petty.

"adulting" lol. Adulting is doing things you don't want to do, not always loving everything. I am not at all shocked that I have to spell out this basic distinction. Again, this is the weird need to control/criticize people for acknowledging --- even anonymously and in an appropriate setting! --- not enjoying things they are supposed to enjoy.

[Anonymous User]

the fact that some folks are ready to walk out and quit or mail it in after 5 weeks is pretty soft, tbh.

part of adulting is dealing with uncomfortable situations.

It's really patronizing to address us like we're KJDs. I put up with really terrible boss in a stressful job for 3 years, because while it was uncomfortable, it was a job that I cared about and wanted to do well in. One of the best (or most "adult") decisions I ever made was quitting a lucrative job that was a very poor fit. I'm obviously not going to do that now, but that doesn't mean I don't think about how great it would be if I never had to come back.

I can't speak for any of the other anons, but I am "dealing with this" by talking about it with other people who share my dislike of the work and the culture. It's difficult to feel comfortable talking about it with other SAs, even friends, so using TLS anonymously is one of the only ways to let it out. I am not sure what you think criticizing us is going to accomplish.

[Anonymous User]

I hate this so much. Ugh

Same. Have even though about quitting, as insane as that is.

Me too! It helps to know I'm not the only person not loving the SA life.

For me one of the worst parts is that people keep pressuring me to act like it's fun. I mean, there's only so much to enjoy about hanging out with associates who seem miserable and burnt out and partners who are clearly evaluating me...at this point it would be a relief to show up and just do work (that will inevitably be useless or, worse, wrong) and then go the fuck home without talking to anyone.

For me it would be tolerable if it was once a week thing - but there are usually at least 3 events a week and they're not exactly optional. Hard to keep up when we go to all of these while the attorneys can pick and choose.

You're on a 10-week long interview for a job that most people would kill for. I suspect you've dealt with a lot worse over your law school career than people making you go out to dinner and socializing. As I often say, you only have one shot at making a first impression and if there are partners at any of these events or even higher-level associates, it's a great time for them to get to know and remember you. Not a huge sacrifice in the grand scheme of things.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I feel like the people who don't get the hell of forced socializing are not introverts. (And no, it's not hell like working in a coal mine or something, but it can be awfully exhausting and brain-frying, I would imagine especially when you've decided you're not going to work there permanently anyway.)

[Anonymous User]

I feel like the people who don't get the hell of forced socializing are not introverts. (And no, it's not hell like working in a coal mine or something, but it can be awfully exhausting and brain-frying, I would imagine especially when you've decided you're not going to work there permanently anyway.)

I know someone that got a no-offer from a normally 100% offer firm, pretty much because he rubbed one partner the wrong way. It can and does happen. If you've decided that it's not the place for you, then by all means, check out early, but don't generalize and suggest it's a strategy that people should feel comfortable about rationalizing away.

[Anonymous User]

I know someone that got a no-offer from a normally 100% offer firm, pretty much because he rubbed one partner the wrong way.

This is kind of the stuff that makes being an SA difficult. Love the lunches, love the work, enjoy learning what big law is all about, even like most of the people. Do not like the fact that I'm putting my career at jeopardy and could get no offered for no apparent reason. Wouldn't mind being "at-will" so much with experience under my belt, but there's clearly unequal bargaining power here as a rookie.

Also, my SA is a small satellite office of a huge global firm. I haven't been out to eat in 2-3 weeks with anyone at the firm, so obviously I'm getting nervous a no offer is coming. Because, if they were planning to offer me wouldn't they be going out of their way to make an investment in me? on the other hand everyone is ridiculously busy, so why should I expect them to cater to me? This has been the hardest part about the job.

[UVA2B]

Smh this thread used to be about models and bottles and what days to wear suits and Allen Edmonds what has happened to it

If it makes you feel better, I realized the error of my ways earlier this week, pulled some AEs from Saks Off Fifth for 60% off and hit a strip club.*


*One of these claims is false

[A. Nony Mouse]

I feel like the people who don't get the hell of forced socializing are not introverts. (And no, it's not hell like working in a coal mine or something, but it can be awfully exhausting and brain-frying, I would imagine especially when you've decided you're not going to work there permanently anyway.)

I know someone that got a no-offer from a normally 100% offer firm, pretty much because he rubbed one partner the wrong way. It can and does happen. If you've decided that it's not the place for you, then by all means, check out early, but don't generalize and suggest it's a strategy that people should feel comfortable about rationalizing away.

I never suggested someone who wants to get an offer should blow off social events. Neither have either of the anons. Saying that you hate going to them doesn't mean you're saying you won't/shouldn't go to them. I'm only defending not liking them, not remotely defending not going (again, presuming you want to try to get an offer). No one has.

I mean, it wouldn't matter so much that you hated them if you decided you just weren't going to go. The whole point is you hate them because you recognize you need to go.

[SmokeytheBear]

Smh this thread used to be about models and bottles and what days to wear suits and Allen Edmonds what has happened to it

If it makes you feel better, I realized the error of my ways earlier this week, pulled some AEs from Saks Off Fifth for 60% off and hit a strip club.*


*One of these claims is false

Any 2L who walks into my office for a call back wearing AEs is going to have to explain to me why they didnt buy Aldens.

[UVA2B]

Smh this thread used to be about models and bottles and what days to wear suits and Allen Edmonds what has happened to it

If it makes you feel better, I realized the error of my ways earlier this week, pulled some AEs from Saks Off Fifth for 60% off and hit a strip club.*


*One of these claims is false

Any 2L who walks into my office for a call back wearing AEs is going to have to explain to me why they didnt buy Aldens.

Pretentious LA style-snob. All dress shoes should look the same under the harsh glow of fluorescent lighting.

Edit: unless your firm is super West Coast-y and has remodeled with exclusively natural light

[Anonymous User]

I feel like the people who don't get the hell of forced socializing are not introverts. (And no, it's not hell like working in a coal mine or something, but it can be awfully exhausting and brain-frying, I would imagine especially when you've decided you're not going to work there permanently anyway.)

I know someone that got a no-offer from a normally 100% offer firm, pretty much because he rubbed one partner the wrong way. It can and does happen. If you've decided that it's not the place for you, then by all means, check out early, but don't generalize and suggest it's a strategy that people should feel comfortable about rationalizing away.

I never suggested someone who wants to get an offer should blow off social events. Neither have either of the anons. Saying that you hate going to them doesn't mean you're saying you won't/shouldn't go to them. I'm only defending not liking them, not remotely defending not going (again, presuming you want to try to get an offer). No one has.

I mean, it wouldn't matter so much that you hated them if you decided you just weren't going to go. The whole point is you hate them because you recognize you need to go.

I'd like to think of these as "entitled people's problems." If your life is at such a point as to where actually getting what you wish for is a burden, then it' may be time to head to a monastery. Or, at the very least, spend the same 10 weeks as a bottom-third 3L in a TTTT struggling to find a paying job.