Does Anyone Know How to Get Over Law School Butt Hurt? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Honestly man, I had a similar feeling as you in law school. Went to a T10, had shit 1L grades (bottom 10%) and saw all my friends paining over whether to take V25 firm or V100 firm they "loved" as I struck out completely after networking all summer. I decided instead of pitying myself, I was going to work smart. I started doing internships in areas of the law I found interesting, started working part-time at an alumni's hedge fund doing random shit (just having the fund on the resume was huge). You need to put yourself out there and try to get away from introverted tendencies. You also want to be doing things that you can use as great talking points in interviews. Sure, I didn't do that much cool stuff at the fund, but in an interview, I can make it sound like I learned a ton. You just need to go out and start doing "non-law school things". Everyone can talk about law review or journals, but you can hustle and talk about the pro bono work you do or the internship you did while studying for classes and it makes you much more interesting. It also takes you away from the law school group-think and social scene, which for me was a life saver.

I ended up at a V20 firm a year after I graduated from law school (Dream Job) and was so miserable I quit in less than 2 years. At a V100 firm now for about 10 months and on the verge of quitting again since its so miserable. Big law sucks. Even if you like your co-workers, it is a miserable way to live your life. Consider yourself lucky you don't have to do this shit and you have good grades from a decent school. Figure out what you really want to do and hustle hard to make it happen and you'll be good.

[AFS]

You can start at a smaller firm and work up from there. Now is the time to work even harder if you want to accomplish your goals.

It's extremely unlikely that someone can make the jump from a small law firm to big law. That's just not how it works.

Just keep in mind that biglaw isn't some fantasy land where everyone is happy and prestigious. Most people who enjoy their jobs in law are not big firm lawyers.

"Work[ing] your way up" can mean different things, not only biglaw. The nice thing about working in a small law firm is that you both learn quickly and have an opportunity to develop your own business quicker, as it's more viable for small law firms to work for smaller scale clients (whereas many smaller and mid-sized businesses won't be able to afford biglaw rates). Could give OP an opportunity to become self-sufficient.

[1styearlateral]

I ended up at a V20 firm a year after I graduated from law school (Dream Job) and was so miserable I quit in less than 2 years. At a V100 firm now for about 10 months and on the verge of quitting again since its so miserable. Big law sucks. Even if you like your co-workers, it is a miserable way to live your life. Consider yourself lucky you don't have to do this shit and you have good grades from a decent school. Figure out what you really want to do and hustle hard to make it happen and you'll be good.

What practice?

[zot1]

You can start at a smaller firm and work up from there. Now is the time to work even harder if you want to accomplish your goals.

It's extremely unlikely that someone can make the jump from a small law firm to big law. That's just not how it works.

Just keep in mind that biglaw isn't some fantasy land where everyone is happy and prestigious. Most people who enjoy their jobs in law are not big firm lawyers.

"Work[ing] your way up" can mean different things, not only biglaw. The nice thing about working in a small law firm is that you both learn quickly and have an opportunity to develop your own business quicker, as it's more viable for small law firms to work for smaller scale clients (whereas many smaller and mid-sized businesses won't be able to afford biglaw rates). Could give OP an opportunity to become self-sufficient.

Not everyone has the right personality/attitude to open their own shop. To begin with, you need financial (startup, overhead, malpractice insurance, etc) and knowledge resources (you know pretty much nothing out of graduation, good time to hit up other attorneys who've been practicing for a bit). I'm not sure I would be throwing this option into the mix just because.

[Phil Brooks]

OP, do you think during biglaw interviews it came across that your main (only?) reason for wanting the job for which you were interviewing was the money? That's the only reason you presented here. If that's what came across, it may have turned off some interviewers. I'm sure you will get more biglaw interviews, so this is something to think about.

[Anonymous User]

I ended up at a V20 firm a year after I graduated from law school (Dream Job) and was so miserable I quit in less than 2 years. At a V100 firm now for about 10 months and on the verge of quitting again since its so miserable. Big law sucks. Even if you like your co-workers, it is a miserable way to live your life. Consider yourself lucky you don't have to do this shit and you have good grades from a decent school. Figure out what you really want to do and hustle hard to make it happen and you'll be good.

What practice?

mostly finance and some general corp and securities

[AFS]

You can start at a smaller firm and work up from there. Now is the time to work even harder if you want to accomplish your goals.

It's extremely unlikely that someone can make the jump from a small law firm to big law. That's just not how it works.

Just keep in mind that biglaw isn't some fantasy land where everyone is happy and prestigious. Most people who enjoy their jobs in law are not big firm lawyers.

"Work[ing] your way up" can mean different things, not only biglaw. The nice thing about working in a small law firm is that you both learn quickly and have an opportunity to develop your own business quicker, as it's more viable for small law firms to work for smaller scale clients (whereas many smaller and mid-sized businesses won't be able to afford biglaw rates). Could give OP an opportunity to become self-sufficient.

Not everyone has the right personality/attitude to open their own shop. To begin with, you need financial (startup, overhead, malpractice insurance, etc) and knowledge resources (you know pretty much nothing out of graduation, good time to hit up other attorneys who've been practicing for a bit). I'm not sure I would be throwing this option into the mix just because.

I wasn't suggesting that OP open his own shop. Just commenting on how it's easier to develop a book of business within a small (already-established) law firm. Could be a good fit for OP.

[1styearlateral]

I ended up at a V20 firm a year after I graduated from law school (Dream Job) and was so miserable I quit in less than 2 years. At a V100 firm now for about 10 months and on the verge of quitting again since its so miserable. Big law sucks. Even if you like your co-workers, it is a miserable way to live your life. Consider yourself lucky you don't have to do this shit and you have good grades from a decent school. Figure out what you really want to do and hustle hard to make it happen and you'll be good.

What practice?

mostly finance and some general corp and securities

I ask only because I am considering a move to a V50 and am worried about losing my mind, even though I will be in litigation, which I have heard/read isn't as soul-crushing as corporate, but I have no real way to confirm that. I have a pretty good control over my hours at my boutique but I'm afraid that might not be possible at a bigger firm.

[zot1]

You can start at a smaller firm and work up from there. Now is the time to work even harder if you want to accomplish your goals.

It's extremely unlikely that someone can make the jump from a small law firm to big law. That's just not how it works.

Just keep in mind that biglaw isn't some fantasy land where everyone is happy and prestigious. Most people who enjoy their jobs in law are not big firm lawyers.

"Work[ing] your way up" can mean different things, not only biglaw. The nice thing about working in a small law firm is that you both learn quickly and have an opportunity to develop your own business quicker, as it's more viable for small law firms to work for smaller scale clients (whereas many smaller and mid-sized businesses won't be able to afford biglaw rates). Could give OP an opportunity to become self-sufficient.

Not everyone has the right personality/attitude to open their own shop. To begin with, you need financial (startup, overhead, malpractice insurance, etc) and knowledge resources (you know pretty much nothing out of graduation, good time to hit up other attorneys who've been practicing for a bit). I'm not sure I would be throwing this option into the mix just because.

I wasn't suggesting that OP open his own shop. Just commenting on how it's easier to develop a book of business within a small (already-established) law firm. Could be a good fit for OP.

The original suggestion was to start a small law firm. Nothing in your post suggested to me that you were against that and instead for OP to get a job at a small law firm. Either way, my comments remain at least for the original suggestion.

[jchiles]

You can start at a smaller firm and work up from there. Now is the time to work even harder if you want to accomplish your goals.

It's extremely unlikely that someone can make the jump from a small law firm to big law. That's just not how it works.

Just keep in mind that biglaw isn't some fantasy land where everyone is happy and prestigious. Most people who enjoy their jobs in law are not big firm lawyers.

"Work[ing] your way up" can mean different things, not only biglaw. The nice thing about working in a small law firm is that you both learn quickly and have an opportunity to develop your own business quicker, as it's more viable for small law firms to work for smaller scale clients (whereas many smaller and mid-sized businesses won't be able to afford biglaw rates). Could give OP an opportunity to become self-sufficient.

Not everyone has the right personality/attitude to open their own shop. To begin with, you need financial (startup, overhead, malpractice insurance, etc) and knowledge resources (you know pretty much nothing out of graduation, good time to hit up other attorneys who've been practicing for a bit). I'm not sure I would be throwing this option into the mix just because.

I wasn't suggesting that OP open his own shop. Just commenting on how it's easier to develop a book of business within a small (already-established) law firm. Could be a good fit for OP.

The original suggestion was to start a small law firm. Nothing in your post suggested to me that you were against that and instead for OP to get a job at a small law firm. Either way, my comments remain at least for the original suggestion.

Bro the original suggestion was to "start at a small firm"

[RaceJudicata]

You can start at a smaller firm and work up from there. Now is the time to work even harder if you want to accomplish your goals.

Bro the original suggestion was to "start at a small firm"

You must be looking at a different post.

Note; bad quoting/deleting quotes by me, but we get the point.

[zot1]

You can start at a smaller firm and work up from there. Now is the time to work even harder if you want to accomplish your goals.

It's extremely unlikely that someone can make the jump from a small law firm to big law. That's just not how it works.

Just keep in mind that biglaw isn't some fantasy land where everyone is happy and prestigious. Most people who enjoy their jobs in law are not big firm lawyers.

"Work[ing] your way up" can mean different things, not only biglaw. The nice thing about working in a small law firm is that you both learn quickly and have an opportunity to develop your own business quicker, as it's more viable for small law firms to work for smaller scale clients (whereas many smaller and mid-sized businesses won't be able to afford biglaw rates). Could give OP an opportunity to become self-sufficient.

Not everyone has the right personality/attitude to open their own shop. To begin with, you need financial (startup, overhead, malpractice insurance, etc) and knowledge resources (you know pretty much nothing out of graduation, good time to hit up other attorneys who've been practicing for a bit). I'm not sure I would be throwing this option into the mix just because.

I wasn't suggesting that OP open his own shop. Just commenting on how it's easier to develop a book of business within a small (already-established) law firm. Could be a good fit for OP.

The original suggestion was to start a small law firm. Nothing in your post suggested to me that you were against that and instead for OP to get a job at a small law firm. Either way, my comments remain at least for the original suggestion.

Bro the original suggestion was to "start at a small firm"

Hahahahahahahahahaha. I wasn't. I missed the a. I can take it all back now.

[Anonymous User]

I ended up at a V20 firm a year after I graduated from law school (Dream Job) and was so miserable I quit in less than 2 years. At a V100 firm now for about 10 months and on the verge of quitting again since its so miserable. Big law sucks. Even if you like your co-workers, it is a miserable way to live your life. Consider yourself lucky you don't have to do this shit and you have good grades from a decent school. Figure out what you really want to do and hustle hard to make it happen and you'll be good.

What practice?

mostly finance and some general corp and securities

I ask only because I am considering a move to a V50 and am worried about losing my mind, even though I will be in litigation, which I have heard/read isn't as soul-crushing as corporate, but I have no real way to confirm that. I have a pretty good control over my hours at my boutique but I'm afraid that might not be possible at a bigger firm.

Honestly, depends what you want. Why are you going to move to the V50? Litigation definitely seems more predictable then corporate, but I know plenty of people that get crushed. In big law you never really have control over your own time, regardless of practice area, but I work in NYC, so it is probably worse here then elsewhere.

[AVBucks4239]

You can start at a smaller firm and work up from there. Now is the time to work even harder if you want to accomplish your goals.

It's extremely unlikely that someone can make the jump from a small law firm to big law. That's just not how it works.

Just keep in mind that biglaw isn't some fantasy land where everyone is happy and prestigious. Most people who enjoy their jobs in law are not big firm lawyers.

"Work[ing] your way up" can mean different things, not only biglaw. The nice thing about working in a small law firm is that you both learn quickly and have an opportunity to develop your own business quicker, as it's more viable for small law firms to work for smaller scale clients (whereas many smaller and mid-sized businesses won't be able to afford biglaw rates). Could give OP an opportunity to become self-sufficient.

I'm in a small firm (25 lawyers) and can confirm this. I've acquired enough of my own clients that I originated about $50k in fees last year. I've already picked up a few big clients this year and probably am on track to have more receipts than my firm pays me. I imagine I could generate more business if I wasn't putting out partners' fires and instead was networking/marketing/looking for clients full time.

I certainly still have a ton to learn about the law and practice, but I think I have enough of a book of business to go out on my own already after just about three years.

[Anonymous User]

I turned down an offer for a government position because I thought my V10 was the much better path. I'm 7 or 8 months in and I regret it every day. I'm looking to leave ASAP. I'm not saying that biglaw sucks uniformly for everyone, but I think what you're experiencing is disappointment for not being able to ascend to the esteemed ranks of biglaw. It's always going to look prestigious and amazing from the outside looking in. But when you're here all that prestige drops away and you're stuck grinding out shit work for the foreseeable future.

I'm not saying biglaw isn't a great opportunity for some, but your life isn't over. I want to echo that the people I know who struck out are doing just fine, and in many cases are better off than me. I went to a t14, but i still think the point stands. There are good opportunities out there and you still have time to explore them.

[AVBucks4239]

Not everyone has the right personality/attitude to open their own shop. To begin with, you need financial (startup, overhead, malpractice insurance, etc) and knowledge resources (you know pretty much nothing out of graduation, good time to hit up other attorneys who've been practicing for a bit). I'm not sure I would be throwing this option into the mix just because.

The cure to much of these concerns is to find an office share arrangement with other solo attorneys. They can refer you overflow and you can bounce ideas off them. This also greatly limits startup cost because you do not need to commit to a commercial lease and the office equipment (scanners, copiers, internet, etc.) are jointly shared.

Startup costs are basically a good computer, a couple months rent in office share, membership dues, money to start your own website (nominal if you use something like Square Space), and malpractice insurance. While young attorneys may be more likely to commit malpractice, malpractice insurance is not that much for young lawyers because they don't have many clients. Your local bar association also almost certainly has an amazing library (including a Westlaw subscription) that you can use whenever you want.

Not saying someone should go solo right out of school, but everyone I know who has done it in my small market is doing just fine. In fact, I'd say 2/3 I know make more money than I do because they manage overhead well and have cultivated relationships with more senior lawyers in town.

If you want to read more about it, "How to Start and Build a Law Practice" and "Solo by Choice" are great references.

[Anonymous User]

Don't worry about them. You'll eventually realize that a lot of law students lie or put up a front about how they're doing. They make it seem like they have good grades, landed a sweet job, and all that when sometimes it's not true. So whatever they say or make it seem like, take it with a grain of salt unless they bring receipts (show their transcript, biglaw offer letter, etc, which will never happen).

It's likely that your interviews just didn't go well. Since you went to SMU, I'm guessing that the firms that interviewed there were almost all local. They usually pay and hire less than the national biglaw firms. So even if you were at the top of your class and law review, there aren't as many spots to fill as there are top students looking. So it comes down to fit during the interview.

And I can see maybe two things that would hurt you with "fitting in." First, and unfortunately, even if the firm won't say it outright, the age of the applicant plays a role at least implicitly and so if you are much older, they might hesitate on you a bit.

Second, your attitude you displayed here might have come off in the interview. You have to understand that the vast majority of people in law school come from well off backgrounds. They didn't have to worry about making ends meet, or working shitty jobs, or anything like that. Their "hard work" was the prep class for the ACT and LSAT, or some unpaid internship at a nonprofit they got to enjoy because, "like, I totes already got money so why not help those poor people. Totes looks great on the resume." I once overheard a girl at my law school complaining how she forgot to bring the right shoes on her recent trip to Belize and almost died from trying to figure out logistically how she would meet up with her parents back in the U.S. because they were coming in from the virgin islands a day later. She. Totes. Almost. Died. Man! So people from this type of background, probably the same ones you're complaining about on your law review, are the norm in the legal profession. And, as I've realized, no matter how much better you are than them at legal research and writing, grades, law review, hard work, etc., you won't succeed unless you pretend to like them and be like them. That means learning stupid follow up questions or phrases like, "Oh wow! Tell me more about your ski trip to aspen." Or, " I'm sorry to hear that. I also can't stand it when I reserve a Tee time on the golf course but my assistant has to take a sick day so I can't go." You already likely don't have these experiences to start with so you can't share any of your own, so if you don't get used to being "interested" in their experiences, then you'll be the silent weirdo in convos who has nothing to contribute and is awkward working with. So put on that fake ass overly professional, oh-this-old-thing-I-got-while-backpacking-through-europe? facade and go get yourself a firm job!

[Anonymous User]

Honestly man, I had a similar feeling as you in law school. Went to a T10, had shit 1L grades (bottom 10%) and saw all my friends paining over whether to take V25 firm or V100 firm they "loved" as I struck out completely after networking all summer. I decided instead of pitying myself, I was going to work smart. I started doing internships in areas of the law I found interesting, started working part-time at an alumni's hedge fund doing random shit (just having the fund on the resume was huge). You need to put yourself out there and try to get away from introverted tendencies. You also want to be doing things that you can use as great talking points in interviews. Sure, I didn't do that much cool stuff at the fund, but in an interview, I can make it sound like I learned a ton. You just need to go out and start doing "non-law school things". Everyone can talk about law review or journals, but you can hustle and talk about the pro bono work you do or the internship you did while studying for classes and it makes you much more interesting. It also takes you away from the law school group-think and social scene, which for me was a life saver.

I ended up at a V20 firm a year after I graduated from law school (Dream Job) and was so miserable I quit in less than 2 years. At a V100 firm now for about 10 months and on the verge of quitting again since its so miserable. Big law sucks. Even if you like your co-workers, it is a miserable way to live your life. Consider yourself lucky you don't have to do this shit and you have good grades from a decent school. Figure out what you really want to do and hustle hard to make it happen and you'll be good.

This. I had a similar path. Struck out and busted my ass doing multiple PT jobs and internships during law school. That led to a pretty cool job that several years later led to a biglaw job. Am now a biglaw midlevel.

I'm not going to say that it's a terrible job, and the pay is great. But there are definite negatives, including shitty people, shitty work that doesn't develop any real skills (I spend a substatial portion of my time just managing people). Given the volume of work and my attempts to actually have a life outside of work there is little time to be entreprenurial or develop skills that would lead to building a business. As for the money, debt takes a lot of it and your lifestyle tends to rise to meet your current salary. I am still saving a lot but not nearly enough to turn that cash into any sort of income producing asset beyond just index funds, never mind to go out and start my own firm or non-law business.

[dbalkaran]

You can start at a smaller firm and work up from there. Now is the time to work even harder if you want to accomplish your goals.

I know that you're just trying to be helpful, but 0Ls aren't really supposed to post in this forum (no questions/comments or answers only if they have very specialized experience relevant to the question).

My bad...I was just speaking from my experience missing out on the Big 3 consulting firms. I know law firms are different, but I started somewhere smaller and that's opened up different doors for me and I've still made very good money. Just didn't want OP to lose hope since I was in a similar spot. Felt like shit for sure, but just because you don't achieve your goals the first time you attempt them doesn't mean you're destined for failure. Anyways I'll leave now!

[andythefir]

I certainly felt the "law school butt hurt" when I had top 10% grades and was no-offered along with the rest of the summers at the firm where I worked. People who worked way less hard were cruising to ludicrous salaries while I was convinced I would never be an attorney. The reality, however, is that (1) there are jobs out there if you're flexible re geography and practice area, and (2) the jobs people are bragging about are awful. If you're willing to move around and leverage your experience you can have a nice career.

"Butt hurt" would have been appropriate if I was staring down the barrel of never being an attorney. But there are jobs that go unfilled because there isn't a single resume coming in. I know of places that do recruiting trips to Cooley and Charloette just to get bodies and still can't fill all their positions. 12 months in one of those jobs and all of a sudden you're pretty competitive for a better job. Good luck.

[Anonymous User]

Second, your attitude you displayed here might have come off in the interview. You have to understand that the vast majority of people in law school come from well off backgrounds. They didn't have to worry about making ends meet, or working shitty jobs, or anything like that. Their "hard work" was the prep class for the ACT and LSAT, or some unpaid internship at a nonprofit they got to enjoy because, "like, I totes already got money so why not help those poor people. Totes looks great on the resume." I once overheard a girl at my law school complaining how she forgot to bring the right shoes on her recent trip to Belize and almost died from trying to figure out logistically how she would meet up with her parents back in the U.S. because they were coming in from the virgin islands a day later. She. Totes. Almost. Died. Man! So people from this type of background, probably the same ones you're complaining about on your law review, are the norm in the legal profession. And, as I've realized, no matter how much better you are than them at legal research and writing, grades, law review, hard work, etc., you won't succeed unless you pretend to like them and be like them. That means learning stupid follow up questions or phrases like, "Oh wow! Tell me more about your ski trip to aspen." Or, " I'm sorry to hear that. I also can't stand it when I reserve a Tee time on the golf course but my assistant has to take a sick day so I can't go." You already likely don't have these experiences to start with so you can't share any of your own, so if you don't get used to being "interested" in their experiences, then you'll be the silent weirdo in convos who has nothing to contribute and is awkward working with. So put on that fake ass overly professional, oh-this-old-thing-I-got-while-backpacking-through-europe? facade and go get yourself a firm job!

Yeah, I wondered how much that fact played in, I do not have a lot of experience in the well-heeled set, and the fit issue probably killed me, not being in the same age/life experience group as the other interviewees. I think sometimes I let the class issue get in my head too much, like I was striving too hard to make myself into something I am not.

Maybe the stars of prestige and big salary got in my eyes and that showed up in my interviews, I was too eager to show that, given the opportunity, I could play in the land of BMW's and Vineyard Vines.

I am going to keep digging and hustling. Hopefully, I can find my "thing" out there where I can do good work, do it reasonably well, and not desire to claw my eyeballs out every other day.

It's not everyday I feel crappy about stuff, usually just when more law review drudgery pops up. For some reason, law review "triggers" all my class insecurities. I am sure everyone can see my (metaphorical) red neck no matter how nice my suit is.

[147221]

Deleted

[Voyager]

A flower does not think of competing with the flowers next to it. It just blooms.

lol. Cute.

OP: yeah, man. That sucks. I hate getting beat out for anything, much less a job that pays a truly ridiculous sum of money.

The only thing I have found that makes me feel better is finding a better opportunity and dominating it or figuring out a way to get a second shot at the one I missed to begin with.

Otherwise it gnaws at me... forever...

I've lost big like this 3 times in 20 years. Each time I either successfully lined up a second shot or found something better... but it takes a ton of work, resiliency and stubbornness. One time it took me 2 entire years to recover and find that next awesome thing that was better than what I lost. RESILIENCY, man.

I feel your pain, friend, and you can recover.

Here is an alternative to Biglaw that I always thought was actually superior: Presidential Management Fellowship. U.S. Civil Service management fast track program. They hire graduate students like yourself.

EDIT: the "well heeled set"? Ah, dude. The people you interviewed with are just people. I doubt very much there was a problem with how you came across due to class... if anything, perhaps your "introverted" nature proved an obstacle? Hard to say. Also: keep in mind that lawyers are generally a miserable lot (in both meanings of that phrase)

[nealric]

I did all this stuff that I thought would get me biglaw: good grades, law review, extra curricular activities.

With respect, you didn't really do the stuff that would get you biglaw because you attended SMU instead of hustling to get into a T14 (or whatever arbitrary cutoff one wants to draw). The good news is that with law review and good grades, you will get a good job if you keep at it. And your end result may be much better than someone who god biglaw if you can end up at a place that is willing and able to properly train you.

[PeanutsNJam]

Is the whole "law students are oil baron children" thing a Texas thing?

At my T20, yeah there are a handful of people who are "travel Europe during break" rich, but they are few and far between. Most people (like, I'd guess 90%) are independent and not supported by family, so how wealthy can you really be as a law student?

Although my particular school is very generous with scholarships so maybe there's some causality there.

I think almost all of this "people look down on me because I'm poor" is entirely in your head, OP. If anything, people from lower socioeconomic classes are respected because people know it's harder for poor people to get into law school.

Also, if your grades are outside the top 15%, biglaw was never an expected outcome from SMU.