Calling all immigration lawyers - What is up with TN? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Something that I'm familiar with that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is friends getting soft guarantees from firms to stash them in a foreign office (e.g., London -- but this was before Brexit) if they don't win the H-1B lottery. I'd guess that most firms are unwilling to do so, but it's probably worth asking about offer-in-hand.

[NoLongerALurker]

I promise you all I'm very well versed in this since I have spoken to numerous firms / friends at firms / immigration attorneys about this.

1. To reply to some comment upthread: you can enter on TN even if you're not called to bar yet. I haven't done it (I'm riding OPT) but I know multiple people who entered in August on TN long before being sworn in (i.e., they hadn't even got their bar results back yet). Also to reply to another comment upthread: literally every Canadian I know got paid in their 2L summer on CPT, so ignore that misinfo.

2. CPT/OPT is definitely the way to go as long as you can manage it. If nothing else, you dodge social security tax withholdings. Seriously, stay on OPT until the latest date possible. However, note that many firm salary advances require your OPT authorization to have started. So this might lead you to starting your OPT earlier (and thus also having it expire earlier)

3. People aren't sure what is happening with TN. I personally firmly believe it is toast as soon as NAFTA is renegotiated.

4. Some firms are forcing their juniors onto TN and hoping for the best. Some firms are submitting an H1B sponsorship application for literally every single associated currently on TN just in case. It differs by firm.

5. If H1B fails, firms want you to fall back on TN. If H1B fails and TN is gone, some firms want you out-out-out. Some firms will stash you in a foreign office.

MY ADVICE:

1. Fall in love with an American and marry them. But not for visa fraud because that's like totally illegal. MAKE IT TRUE LOVE.

2. Accept an offer at a firm with a foreign office. SPLIT YOUR SUMMER WITH US AND FOREIGN OFFICE. Get offers at both. Take US offer. If visa issues come up, you already have foot in door at foreign office.

3. Ask around about how amenable firms are about transferring within firms. Some firms are basically just brand initiatives and their foreign and local office might as well be entirely independently run. Some firms are actually very well connected and operate as a big global unit.

4. Make sure you're going into corporate. Preferably cap markets.

5. If you're a Canadian, take your 3LOL year and focus less on school and just study up on the 5 NCA exams you'll be assessed. You'll be able to turn around and knock them out as soon as you get your assessment back, and then you're covered in terms of at least being close to being admitted in Canada.

[Anonymous User]

I promise you all I'm very well versed in this since I have spoken to numerous firms / friends at firms / immigration attorneys about this.

1. To reply to some comment upthread: you can enter on TN even if you're not called to bar yet. I haven't done it (I'm riding OPT) but I know multiple people who entered in August on TN long before being sworn in (i.e., they hadn't even got their bar results back yet). Also to reply to another comment upthread: literally every Canadian I know got paid in their 2L summer on CPT, so ignore that misinfo.

2. CPT/OPT is definitely the way to go as long as you can manage it. If nothing else, you dodge social security tax withholdings. Seriously, stay on OPT until the latest date possible. However, note that many firm salary advances require your OPT authorization to have started. So this might lead you to starting your OPT earlier (and thus also having it expire earlier)

3. People aren't sure what is happening with TN. I personally firmly believe it is toast as soon as NAFTA is renegotiated.

4. Some firms are forcing their juniors onto TN and hoping for the best. Some firms are submitting an H1B sponsorship application for literally every single associated currently on TN just in case. It differs by firm.

5. If H1B fails, firms want you to fall back on TN. If H1B fails and TN is gone, some firms want you out-out-out. Some firms will stash you in a foreign office.

MY ADVICE:

1. Fall in love with an American and marry them. But not for visa fraud because that's like totally illegal. MAKE IT TRUE LOVE.

2. Accept an offer at a firm with a foreign office. SPLIT YOUR SUMMER WITH US AND FOREIGN OFFICE. Get offers at both. Take US offer. If visa issues come up, you already have foot in door at foreign office.

3. Ask around about how amenable firms are about transferring within firms. Some firms are basically just brand initiatives and their foreign and local office might as well be entirely independently run. Some firms are actually very well connected and operate as a big global unit.

4. Make sure you're going into corporate. Preferably cap markets.

5. If you're a Canadian, take your 3LOL year and focus less on school and just study up on the 5 NCA exams you'll be assessed. You'll be able to turn around and knock them out as soon as you get your assessment back, and then you're covered in terms of at least being close to being admitted in Canada.

Why do you think the TN is toast. Do you really think that Canada would allow 30 to 40K people people in the U.S. to be out of a job?

[Npret]

Calm down dude. No one suggested Visa fraud. I think it's ridiculous to say that marriage not for love is Visa fraud when arranged marriages are perfectly fine. There is no "love" requirement. The intention is that at the time you marry, you will stay married. But, even that doesn't last.

Visa fraud is when you pay someone to marry you for immigration benefits or when you are married only in name, but don't live together and never intend to live together.

[jess]

.

[Anonymous User]

One final note, the OP is mistaken about using CPT for summers.. Under CPT, one cannot get paid since CPT = externship.... so, if OP wants/aspires to summer at a big law firm during 2L summer, he/she needs to use OPT, which then will eat into post-graduate OPT.... UPDATE: ABA rules now allow for paid externships, if the school allows it.

Uh, you can use CPT to do paid work at a law firm for your summers. I did it last year, as did pretty much all the international students that I know going a few years back, so it's been that way for a while.

[Anonymous User]

social security tax withholdings

Not the OP, but can Canadians be exempt from FICA tax if they work on OPT? I thought it depends on whether you're resident alien or non-resident alien for tax purposes, and has nothing to do with visa status.

[Npret]

I will accept arranged marriage applications from Canadians, and I am an immigration atty. This could be a very loving and successful matrimonial union

Yeah I know it's not a great argument to support that love isn't required, but it is true. People get upset when you suggest immigrants get married to US citizens but it's the most certain way to stay. That doesn't mean I'm suggesting Visa fraud. I do immigration law as well and nowhere did I suggest that OP commit Visa fraud to stay and practice law in the US.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.. just to clarify I wouldn’t commit my life to someone for a work visa.. Canada isn’t too shabby I might add. I want to be working and have some income before I pop the question though. I’ve been with this girl for several years and was planning on getting married after school so really this is just a timing issue..

[NoLongerALurker]

social security tax withholdings

Not the OP, but can Canadians be exempt from FICA tax if they work on OPT? I thought it depends on whether you're resident alien or non-resident alien for tax purposes, and has nothing to do with visa status.

I think you need to be a non-resident alien and also on OPT, but I'm not sure. I'm positive there are more taxes if on TN (a classmate who graduated same year as me and I compared W2s, and visa status is our only difference) -- or my firm screwed up.

[NoLongerALurker]

Calm down dude. No one suggested Visa fraud. I think it's ridiculous to say that marriage not for love is Visa fraud when arranged marriages are perfectly fine. There is no "love" requirement. The intention is that at the time you marry, you will stay married. But, even that doesn't last.

Visa fraud is when you pay someone to marry you for immigration benefits or when you are married only in name, but don't live together and never intend to live together.

I'm calm. Tongue in cheek. You're right, obviously.

[Anonymous User]

Huzzah!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/c ... -1.4030179

[Calka]

Also to reply to another comment upthread: literally every Canadian I know got paid in their 2L summer on CPT, so ignore that misinfo.

News to me.

CPT is any alternative work/study, internship, cooperative education, or other type of required internship or practicum that is offered by sponsoring employers through cooperative agreements with the school. CPT must be an integral part of an established curriculum. https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/compl ... t%20status

So, if you're on CPT then you're doing an externship since it must be a part of an "established curriculum"

Before August 2016, the ABA did not allow for paid externships. http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... ition.html

So, I guess some of your Canadian friends were skirting the law / ABA rules if they were summering without taking any classes / writing papers. Since I don't know anyone from HLS, I don't know for sure whether they really do advise students to apply for CPT during their 2L summers.

At least, from reading the relevant rules, it's illegal to work in the US unless an F-1 student on CPT/OPT. If the student is on CPT, it's (not illegal) but against ABA rules (pre-2016) to get paid. http://www.cleaweb.org/Resources/Docume ... nships.pdf

[esther0123]

Also to reply to another comment upthread: literally every Canadian I know got paid in their 2L summer on CPT, so ignore that misinfo.

News to me.

CPT is any alternative work/study, internship, cooperative education, or other type of required internship or practicum that is offered by sponsoring employers through cooperative agreements with the school. CPT must be an integral part of an established curriculum. https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/compl ... t%20status

So, if you're on CPT then you're doing an externship since it must be a part of an "established curriculum"

Before August 2016, the ABA did not allow for paid externships. http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... ition.html

So, I guess some of your Canadian friends were skirting the law / ABA rules if they were summering without taking any classes / writing papers. Since I don't know anyone from HLS, I don't know for sure whether they really do advise students to apply for CPT during their 2L summers.

At least, from reading the relevant rules, it's illegal to work in the US unless an F-1 student on CPT/OPT. If the student is on CPT, it's (not illegal) but against ABA rules (pre-2016) to get paid. http://www.cleaweb.org/Resources/Docume ... nships.pdf

You have to write a paper about your summer work experience/related to your summer work experience to be on CPT at HLS.

[esther0123]

I promise you all I'm very well versed in this since I have spoken to numerous firms / friends at firms / immigration attorneys about this.

1. To reply to some comment upthread: you can enter on TN even if you're not called to bar yet. I haven't done it (I'm riding OPT) but I know multiple people who entered in August on TN long before being sworn in (i.e., they hadn't even got their bar results back yet). Also to reply to another comment upthread: literally every Canadian I know got paid in their 2L summer on CPT, so ignore that misinfo.

2. CPT/OPT is definitely the way to go as long as you can manage it. If nothing else, you dodge social security tax withholdings. Seriously, stay on OPT until the latest date possible. However, note that many firm salary advances require your OPT authorization to have started. So this might lead you to starting your OPT earlier (and thus also having it expire earlier)

3. People aren't sure what is happening with TN. I personally firmly believe it is toast as soon as NAFTA is renegotiated.

4. Some firms are forcing their juniors onto TN and hoping for the best. Some firms are submitting an H1B sponsorship application for literally every single associated currently on TN just in case. It differs by firm.

5. If H1B fails, firms want you to fall back on TN. If H1B fails and TN is gone, some firms want you out-out-out. Some firms will stash you in a foreign office.

MY ADVICE:

1. Fall in love with an American and marry them. But not for visa fraud because that's like totally illegal. MAKE IT TRUE LOVE.

2. Accept an offer at a firm with a foreign office. SPLIT YOUR SUMMER WITH US AND FOREIGN OFFICE. Get offers at both. Take US offer. If visa issues come up, you already have foot in door at foreign office.

3. Ask around about how amenable firms are about transferring within firms. Some firms are basically just brand initiatives and their foreign and local office might as well be entirely independently run. Some firms are actually very well connected and operate as a big global unit.

4. Make sure you're going into corporate. Preferably cap markets.

5. If you're a Canadian, take your 3LOL year and focus less on school and just study up on the 5 NCA exams you'll be assessed. You'll be able to turn around and knock them out as soon as you get your assessment back, and then you're covered in terms of at least being close to being admitted in Canada.

Why do you think the TN is toast. Do you really think that Canada would allow 30 to 40K people people in the U.S. to be out of a job?

I also wonder what made you come to that conclusion, since all talks of NAFTA negotiation on Canadian front seemed to be soft-pedalling. The only TN consideration that I've heard being floated around was instead to expand its categories to include Tech-related jobs.

[NoLongerALurker]

Also to reply to another comment upthread: literally every Canadian I know got paid in their 2L summer on CPT, so ignore that misinfo.

News to me.

CPT is any alternative work/study, internship, cooperative education, or other type of required internship or practicum that is offered by sponsoring employers through cooperative agreements with the school. CPT must be an integral part of an established curriculum. https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/compl ... t%20status

So, if you're on CPT then you're doing an externship since it must be a part of an "established curriculum"

Before August 2016, the ABA did not allow for paid externships. http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... ition.html

So, I guess some of your Canadian friends were skirting the law / ABA rules if they were summering without taking any classes / writing papers. Since I don't know anyone from HLS, I don't know for sure whether they really do advise students to apply for CPT during their 2L summers.

At least, from reading the relevant rules, it's illegal to work in the US unless an F-1 student on CPT/OPT. If the student is on CPT, it's (not illegal) but against ABA rules (pre-2016) to get paid. http://www.cleaweb.org/Resources/Docume ... nships.pdf

Should add it's a course -- you need to write a paper and HLS gives credit. As to its interaction with ABA rules, I can't speak to that. I can assure you that probably every summer class at every large NY firm has F1 students being paid on CPT. My firm had CPT students from multiple schools so it's not just an HLS thing.

[NoLongerALurker]

I promise you all I'm very well versed in this since I have spoken to numerous firms / friends at firms / immigration attorneys about this.

1. To reply to some comment upthread: you can enter on TN even if you're not called to bar yet. I haven't done it (I'm riding OPT) but I know multiple people who entered in August on TN long before being sworn in (i.e., they hadn't even got their bar results back yet). Also to reply to another comment upthread: literally every Canadian I know got paid in their 2L summer on CPT, so ignore that misinfo.

2. CPT/OPT is definitely the way to go as long as you can manage it. If nothing else, you dodge social security tax withholdings. Seriously, stay on OPT until the latest date possible. However, note that many firm salary advances require your OPT authorization to have started. So this might lead you to starting your OPT earlier (and thus also having it expire earlier)

3. People aren't sure what is happening with TN. I personally firmly believe it is toast as soon as NAFTA is renegotiated.

4. Some firms are forcing their juniors onto TN and hoping for the best. Some firms are submitting an H1B sponsorship application for literally every single associated currently on TN just in case. It differs by firm.

5. If H1B fails, firms want you to fall back on TN. If H1B fails and TN is gone, some firms want you out-out-out. Some firms will stash you in a foreign office.

MY ADVICE:

1. Fall in love with an American and marry them. But not for visa fraud because that's like totally illegal. MAKE IT TRUE LOVE.

2. Accept an offer at a firm with a foreign office. SPLIT YOUR SUMMER WITH US AND FOREIGN OFFICE. Get offers at both. Take US offer. If visa issues come up, you already have foot in door at foreign office.

3. Ask around about how amenable firms are about transferring within firms. Some firms are basically just brand initiatives and their foreign and local office might as well be entirely independently run. Some firms are actually very well connected and operate as a big global unit.

4. Make sure you're going into corporate. Preferably cap markets.

5. If you're a Canadian, take your 3LOL year and focus less on school and just study up on the 5 NCA exams you'll be assessed. You'll be able to turn around and knock them out as soon as you get your assessment back, and then you're covered in terms of at least being close to being admitted in Canada.

Why do you think the TN is toast. Do you really think that Canada would allow 30 to 40K people people in the U.S. to be out of a job?

I also wonder what made you come to that conclusion, since all talks of NAFTA negotiation on Canadian front seemed to be soft-pedalling. The only TN consideration that I've heard being floated around was instead to expand its categories to include Tech-related jobs.

It just seems to me that the first order of business in any negotiation session is going to be to do away anything with an immigration facet and work from there. I can't fathom that the same US administration that's looking to amend H1B to cut back on tech workers is going to open up another route under TN. Well, fathom is a strong word -- it's not unthinkable. But I wouldn't bet on it. I could be wrong -- we'll see how it plays out. FWIW most immigration experts I've spoken to disagree with me and regard TN as safe. I'll go on record here saying I think it's DOA (or that an income minimum will be enforced -- which could be fine for biglaw, I suppose). I don't think Canada would "support" stripping TN but I also don't think their view is likely to be conclusive and that there are much more important aspects for them to focus on (e.g., softwood lumber) that they wouldn't go to bat for TN. And I think the American position is going to be anti-TN because of their approach to immigration and foreign workers generally.

[Hand]

I will accept arranged marriage applications from Canadians, and I am an immigration atty. This could be a very loving and successful matrimonial union

given the lack of response to this ITT I assume you have received a lot of PMs about this offer, right?

[jess]

.

[Anonymous User]

Also to reply to another comment upthread: literally every Canadian I know got paid in their 2L summer on CPT, so ignore that misinfo.

News to me.

CPT is any alternative work/study, internship, cooperative education, or other type of required internship or practicum that is offered by sponsoring employers through cooperative agreements with the school. CPT must be an integral part of an established curriculum. https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/compl ... t%20status

So, if you're on CPT then you're doing an externship since it must be a part of an "established curriculum"

Before August 2016, the ABA did not allow for paid externships. http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... ition.html

So, I guess some of your Canadian friends were skirting the law / ABA rules if they were summering without taking any classes / writing papers. Since I don't know anyone from HLS, I don't know for sure whether they really do advise students to apply for CPT during their 2L summers.

At least, from reading the relevant rules, it's illegal to work in the US unless an F-1 student on CPT/OPT. If the student is on CPT, it's (not illegal) but against ABA rules (pre-2016) to get paid. http://www.cleaweb.org/Resources/Docume ... nships.pdf

Except that CPT from any school requires the school's approval. You can't "skirt" CPT rules on your own. Presumably the schools know what the legal requirements are? You obviously know shit about this, and have been called out by multiple posters who have gone through the process. What's the deal?

[Npret]

At least the new consular review process for visas doesn't apply to Canada yet. "Every visa decision is a security decision."

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN16U12X

[Anonymous User]

one way or another....

OPT/H1B/TN

Canadians can start working at firms after graduation under all three visa statuses...

Yes but it's up to the employee to make sure they have status, not the firm. OP should be in good shape, but is worried about not getting TN or H1B. As I posted, even the top biglaw firms don't promise anything regarding employment if you don't get the visa you need.

Ultimately, it's up to USCIS...not the employee. The firm, having made the investment i.e. spending $$ on summers, spending $$ in writing off accountable hours during recruitment, opportunity cost if the associate can't work... won't be sitting on their hands... in fact, they are pretty proactive about helping the associate to file the requisite paperwork.

One final note, the OP is mistaken about using CPT for summers.. Under CPT, one cannot get paid since CPT = externship.... so, if OP wants/aspires to summer at a big law firm during 2L summer, he/she needs to use OPT, which then will eat into post-graduate OPT.... UPDATE: ABA rules now allow for paid externships, if the school allows it.

This is absolutely not true. At HLS, to use the school I'm familiar with, the default form of summer work authorization for both paid and unpaid work is CPT.

IIRC, at Michigan, you are supposed to state what how much you'll be making in order to get the CPT approval from the school. So the school immigration offices and the firms are all completely aware that students on CPT are/were getting paid. I didn't read the relevant rules the one guy was citing, but I think he's missing some exception or something - every CPT person gets paid at a law firm.

[Anonymous User]

Except that CPT from any school requires the school's approval. You can't "skirt" CPT rules on your own. Presumably the schools know what the legal requirements are? You obviously know shit about this, and have been called out by multiple posters who have gone through the process. What's the deal?

https://www.law.gwu.edu/sites/www.law.g ... rd-305.pdf

Standard 305. FIELD PLACEMENTS AND OTHER STUDY OUTSIDE
THE CLASSROOM

Interpretation 305-2
A law school may not grant credit to a student for participation in a field placement program for which the student receives compensation. This Interpretation does not preclude reimbursement of reasonable out-of-pocket expenses related to the field placement.

Again, getting paid on CPT is NOT an immigration issue. No one is breaking the law by getting paid while they are on CPT. It's an ABA issue. If the schools want to do it, they will... I'm sure HLS is not about to lose their ABA accreditation because they allow paid externship.

Unless you can show me a rule that states otherwise, why flame?

[Anonymous User]

one way or another....

One final note, the OP is mistaken about using CPT for summers.. Under CPT, one cannot get paid since CPT = externship.... so, if OP wants/aspires to summer at a big law firm during 2L summer, he/she needs to use OPT, which then will eat into post-graduate OPT.... UPDATE: ABA rules now allow for paid externships, if the school allows it.

This is absolutely not true. At HLS, to use the school I'm familiar with, the default form of summer work authorization for both paid and unpaid work is CPT.

https://hls.harvard.edu/content/uploads ... -Form.pdf

At last, mystery is solved. At HLS, students do work over the summer on CPT but the writing credit that they receive is recorded in the following "fall semester" Basically a credit-less summer program that will lead to a writing-credit in the fall.

As such, the "credit" was not granted contemporaneously with the "externship" therefore circumventing the ABA rules.

[Npret]

Just FYI there were 199,000 H1B visa applications for 20,000 advanced degree and the 65,000 general category cap.

Also if you don't get chosen in the lottery the firms check would be returned to them, not that it helps you any.