Advice on Leaving the Law Forum

[Anonymous User]

5th year, V10 NYC, M&A associate (mostly sponsor side work). K-JD. BA from a TTT UG. T6 law school. Have a small savings and wife in Biglaw. Decided I am done being a lawyer.

Assume I have 3-6 months of burn time before people realize I am not billing +200 a month. What steps can I take short of an MBA to better position myself for a role in investment banking, consulting, corp. dev.?

Or do I need to prep for the GMAT, buckle down for a year and apply to bschool?

Without TLS I never would have attended a great law school, any suggestions from the community to get me out of the law are welcome.

[Future Ex-Engineer]

Not totally in line with what you are necessarily seeking, but in a few months you can code bootcamp yourself into becoming a reasonably competent programmer (think Python or SQL or some other database or scripting language). Given that you (presumably) did well enough on the LSAT to get into a T6, and have 5 years as a biglaw associate, you should have the logical basis needed for programming.

Lots of tech jobs open for competent computer programmers, and they have wayyyyyy better hours/telecommute options than just about every other job out there.

[Anonymous User]

How are those things you mentioned substantially better than law? Just asking before you end up comitting money and time and doing something else you don't like.

Edit: here comes the boot camp talk... Mvp99

[Lacepiece23]

5th year, V10 NYC, M&A associate (mostly sponsor side work). K-JD. BA from a TTT UG. T6 law school. Have a small savings and wife in Biglaw. Decided I am done being a lawyer.

Assume I have 3-6 months of burn time before people realize I am not billing +200 a month. What steps can I take short of an MBA to better position myself for a role in investment banking, consulting, corp. dev.?

Or do I need to prep for the GMAT, buckle down for a year and apply to bschool?

Without TLS I never would have attended a great law school, any suggestions from the community to get me out of the law are welcome.

I have no basis for this advice, and I'm junior to you, but I think b-school sounds like the play. I'm a litigator, and I enjoy it, but if I was M&A what else is there? I mean you could go in-house and do the same shit for less hours, but do you enjoy that? With an MBA a JD and 5 years biglaw, I bet you'd have some pretty nice job opportunities after you finish and you'd be in your early 30s. Doesn't seem like the worst thing ever. Idk, I'm just talking through your situation more so than offering advice.

[jkpolk]

I am a couple years behind you, but what I would do is craft a resume that highlights your demonstrated ability to manage a team, your financial literacy, your ability to work well under pressure, basically all the things that a business or consulting firm would like about you. Think of it like you just worked 5 years in an office job doing office things. Maybe think about what industries you've worked on deals for and try to tailor your applications accordingly (i.e. focus on your heath care deal work if you apply heath care).

I do not think you need another credential with your background/experience if you sell yourself correctly. I don't think it'll be easy, no one will do it for you, but I do think it's out there and what's the harm in trying at this point? (If you go the business school route that'll make it easier - but unclear if the money and time is worth the ease to you).

[Anonymous User]

Can you tell us more about what makes you hate law?

[Anonymous User]

Not totally in line with what you are necessarily seeking, but in a few months you can code bootcamp yourself into becoming a reasonably competent programmer (think Python or SQL or some other database or scripting language). Given that you (presumably) did well enough on the LSAT to get into a T6, and have 5 years as a biglaw associate, you should have the logical basis needed for programming.

OP here. Ya, I had thought of this (1) would have to quit current gig (12k a month take home gone) and (2) don't think my last 7/8 years (ls and job) would give me any edge, I would like to find something where they would. I have a buddy who is leading an investment into one of these and I am really interested to see if their internal success numbers are truthful.

[Anonymous User]

How are those things you mentioned substantially better than law? Just asking before you end up committing money and time and doing something else you don't like.

In some ways they aren't, your right. I do feel as an M&A lawyer I am just the scrivener/nanny and really lack control. Not making partner here (very few do and I am like top half, no better) so figured I should try something new, see if it makes me happier.

[Anonymous User]

I have no basis for this advice, and I'm junior to you, but I think b-school sounds like the play. I'm a litigator, and I enjoy it, but if I was M&A what else is there? I mean you could go in-house and do the same shit for less hours, but do you enjoy that? With an MBA a JD and 5 years biglaw, I bet you'd have some pretty nice job opportunities after you finish and you'd be in your early 30s. Doesn't seem like the worst thing ever. Idk, I'm just talking through your situation more so than offering advice.

So I would enroll in fall 2018 (the admissions deadlines to the M7 bschsools are all closed it seems) and graduate in spring of 2020 at like 33 years old...don't know how banks and companies would feel about that but its an idea.
In-house is a crap shoot. Sports jobs are cool, but super hard to get and don't pay that well. Banks/PE pay well, but still beat you up. Companies are all over the place but the horror stories and 'bide your time until retirement' gigs seem to outweigh the fun ones 10-1 (and are still very hard to land).

[Anonymous User]

I do not think you need another credential with your background/experience if you sell yourself correctly. I don't think it'll be easy, no one will do it for you, but I do think it's out there and what's the harm in trying at this point? (If you go the business school route that'll make it easier - but unclear if the money and time is worth the ease to you).

Trying this at the moment. Will let you know how it goes. Assuming my quantitative skills are very rusty - its been a long time sine the AP Calc. exams in high school (got a 4/5, last math course I took)- may try to tune those up.

[Lacepiece23]

I have no basis for this advice, and I'm junior to you, but I think b-school sounds like the play. I'm a litigator, and I enjoy it, but if I was M&A what else is there? I mean you could go in-house and do the same shit for less hours, but do you enjoy that? With an MBA a JD and 5 years biglaw, I bet you'd have some pretty nice job opportunities after you finish and you'd be in your early 30s. Doesn't seem like the worst thing ever. Idk, I'm just talking through your situation more so than offering advice.

So I would enroll in fall 2018 (the admissions deadlines to the M7 bschsools are all closed it seems) and graduate in spring of 2020 at like 33 years old...don't know how banks and companies would feel about that but its an idea.
In-house is a crap shoot. Sports jobs are cool, but super hard to get and don't pay that well. Banks/PE pay well, but still beat you up. Companies are all over the place but the horror stories and 'bide your time until retirement' gigs seem to outweigh the fun ones 10-1 (and are still very hard to land).

I wouldn't mind spending age 31-33 in b-school "networking." I probably wouldn't want something soul crushing after that, but I'm sure you could find a job that pays six figures and you work like 45-50 hours a week. Plus, no billing.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

You could get started on the CFA as an alternative credential (or some other related, less popular credential)... sounds like your UG credentials may preclude most bulge brackets/MBB and prestigious boutiques. B-school sounds fun if you're debt free, but a huge, expensive crap shoot as well.

*Take my thoughts with a grain of salt though as I am slightly junior to you. Also, after seeing friends move from biglaw to ibanking/consulting, I have little interest in totally exiting the law (despite wishing that I never got into law in the first place).

[Anonymous User]

... sounds like your UG credentials may preclude most bulge brackets/MBB and prestigious boutiques. B-school sounds fun if you're debt free, but a huge, expensive crap shoot as well.

Figured that out. Hilarious in a way that being lazy/poor at 16 means I can't even interview for a job at 30 but I do think you are right.

*Take my thoughts with a grain of salt though as I am slightly junior to you. Also, after seeing friends move from biglaw to ibanking/consulting, I have little interest in totally exiting the law (despite wishing that I never got into law in the first place).

Can you elaborate on the bolded?

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

... sounds like your UG credentials may preclude most bulge brackets/MBB and prestigious boutiques. B-school sounds fun if you're debt free, but a huge, expensive crap shoot as well.

Figured that out. Hilarious in a way that being lazy/poor at 16 means I can't even interview for a job at 30 but I do think you are right.

*Take my thoughts with a grain of salt though as I am slightly junior to you. Also, after seeing friends move from biglaw to ibanking/consulting, I have little interest in totally exiting the law (despite wishing that I never got into law in the first place).

Can you elaborate on the bolded?

My Thoughts: Tough hours, steep learning curve, lower pay/seniority, younger colleagues/younger bosses (not necessarily bad depending on your stage in life), uncertain outcomes, consulting/banking is still within the service industry (and associate on up generally do not get the buy side exits, unless they get way up the food chain), and, at this point, I'm more envious of quasi-legal or more broad GC type roles.

Their Move: As mentioned above - sector specific (e.g., healthcare, but not healthcare) or had the credentials to do IBD or MBB consulting in the first place, but were affected by '08 and made the best of it in the meantime. Edit: Their seniority at the law firm counted for nothing and they were treated similarly to post-MBA hires, except, in one case, the person specifically wanted to come in as an analyst to get the training in order to reboot and move to the buy side, so that person was treated as a post-UG hire.

[Anonymous User]

My Thoughts: Tough hours, steep learning curve, lower pay/seniority, younger colleagues/younger bosses (not necessarily bad depending on your stage in life), uncertain outcomes, consulting/banking is still within the service industry (and associate on up generally do not get the buy side exits, unless they get way up the food chain), and, at this point, I'm more envious of quasi-legal or more broad GC type roles.

Their Move: As mentioned above - sector specific (e.g., healthcare, but not healthcare) or had the credentials to do IBD or MBB consulting in the first place, but were affected by '08 and made the best of it in the meantime. Edit: Their seniority at the law firm counted for nothing and they were treated similarly to post-MBA hires, except, in one case, the person specifically wanted to come in as an analyst to get the training in order to reboot and move to the buy side, so that person was treated as a post-UG hire.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I think your right, the good ibanking and consulting jobs have passed me by. Best bet maybe sticking around for another 1-3 years and fighting for a "quasi-legal or more broad GC type role" with a company.

[Anonymous User]

I am pretty sure MBB will interview you with your credentials. Your UG won't matter. After MBB you could exit into corp dev etc.

[Anonymous User]

I am pretty sure MBB will interview you with your credentials. Your UG won't matter. After MBB you could exit into corp dev etc.

I think this route would be the dream. Going to try and improve quant, network to an interview and then bother some Columbia MBAs to practice case interviews.

[elendinel]

Not totally in line with what you are necessarily seeking, but in a few months you can code bootcamp yourself into becoming a reasonably competent programmer (think Python or SQL or some other database or scripting language). Given that you (presumably) did well enough on the LSAT to get into a T6, and have 5 years as a biglaw associate, you should have the logical basis needed for programming.

Lots of tech jobs open for competent computer programmers, and they have wayyyyyy better hours/telecommute options than just about every other job out there.

Lolno.

Bootcamps will make you competent in coding specific things in a few months, but you won't be anything close to a competent programmer in just a few months. 4-year UG degrees in Comp Sci still exist for a reason. You will get pigeon-holed and you won't get to work at a Google or Microsoft where they're working on exciting new tech.

And the logic used in law does not necessarily translate to the sort used for programming. That's like saying all lawyers should be good at high level math if they did well on the LSAT.

People really need to stop acting like coding is an easy panacea for when someone hates their job.

[WhiteCollarBlueShirt]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I think your right, the good ibanking and consulting jobs have passed me by. Best bet maybe sticking around for another 1-3 years and fighting for a "quasi-legal or more broad GC type role" with a company.

I mean, if you hate the V10 (I think any sane person would), then definitely apply broadly and try everything. It's always easier to make up your mind with an offer in hand. And, let the crowd know how it goes... all the people I know who did the complete switch were 1st-3rd years (but the majority were not K-JD, so ages were probably similar).

[Future Ex-Engineer]

Not totally in line with what you are necessarily seeking, but in a few months you can code bootcamp yourself into becoming a reasonably competent programmer (think Python or SQL or some other database or scripting language). Given that you (presumably) did well enough on the LSAT to get into a T6, and have 5 years as a biglaw associate, you should have the logical basis needed for programming.

Lots of tech jobs open for competent computer programmers, and they have wayyyyyy better hours/telecommute options than just about every other job out there.

Lolno.

Bootcamps will make you competent in coding specific things in a few months, but you won't be anything close to a competent programmer in just a few months. 4-year UG degrees in Comp Sci still exist for a reason. You will get pigeon-holed and you won't get to work at a Google or Microsoft where they're working on exciting new tech.

And the logic used in law does not necessarily translate to the sort used for programming. That's like saying all lawyers should be good at high level math if they did well on the LSAT.

People really need to stop acting like coding is an easy panacea for when someone hates their job.

I mean it is true though. If you just start programming, you'll pick it up very quickly. My current job wanted me to learn python for a task, and within a month I've developed a pretty well rounded set of abilities in the language. All you really need to be good at this stuff is a semi-functional brain and the ability to use google.

Also, your high level math comparison is flawed. I didn't say he'd be good at programming because he was a lawyer, it's the fact that he has a strong enough grasp on logical analysis (the basis for coding) to score high enough on the LSAT to get into a T6. Some kid from Cooley would probably be awful at programming, but they would have already showcased their low ceiling by going to Cooley in the first place.

[albanach]

5th year, V10 NYC, M&A associate (mostly sponsor side work). K-JD. BA from a TTT UG. T6 law school. Have a small savings and wife in Biglaw. Decided I am done being a lawyer.

Assume I have 3-6 months of burn time before people realize I am not billing +200 a month. What steps can I take short of an MBA to better position myself for a role in investment banking, consulting, corp. dev.?

Curious, why you seek to move into something with possibly worse working conditions, still awful hours and high pressure as opposed to leveraging your experience to move in house where you could expect more autonomy, control and input to the business side of things?

[juzam_djinn]

Not totally in line with what you are necessarily seeking, but in a few months you can code bootcamp yourself into becoming a reasonably competent programmer (think Python or SQL or some other database or scripting language). Given that you (presumably) did well enough on the LSAT to get into a T6, and have 5 years as a biglaw associate, you should have the logical basis needed for programming.

Lots of tech jobs open for competent computer programmers, and they have wayyyyyy better hours/telecommute options than just about every other job out there.

Lolno.

Bootcamps will make you competent in coding specific things in a few months, but you won't be anything close to a competent programmer in just a few months. 4-year UG degrees in Comp Sci still exist for a reason. You will get pigeon-holed and you won't get to work at a Google or Microsoft where they're working on exciting new tech.

And the logic used in law does not necessarily translate to the sort used for programming. That's like saying all lawyers should be good at high level math if they did well on the LSAT.

People really need to stop acting like coding is an easy panacea for when someone hates their job.

I mean it is true though. If you just start programming, you'll pick it up very quickly. My current job wanted me to learn python for a task, and within a month I've developed a pretty well rounded set of abilities in the language. All you really need to be good at this stuff is a semi-functional brain and the ability to use google.

Also, your high level math comparison is flawed. I didn't say he'd be good at programming because he was a lawyer, it's the fact that he has a strong enough grasp on logical analysis (the basis for coding) to score high enough on the LSAT to get into a T6. Some kid from Cooley would probably be awful at programming, but they would have already showcased their low ceiling by going to Cooley in the first place.

Yeah I gotta chime in on this. Coding isn't easy, and you won't become great at it within a few months. That being said, I know nearly a dozen people (business or econ majors in UG) who did business for a while and weren't progressing. They went to coding bootcamps in the bay and within a year were getting SWE jobs at facebook, microsoft, etc. These were bright but not exceptionally smart people. The jobs they were getting were legit software engineer positions though. Not on the most exciting projects, but they weren't completely relegated to back-end stuff or site reliability work either.

TLDR: If you're willing to put in some time, you can become a competent programmer within a year. Whether or not that's worth it is another question.

[Anonymous User]

Curious, why you seek to move into something with possibly worse working conditions, still awful hours and high pressure as opposed to leveraging your experience to move in house where you could expect more autonomy, control and input to the business side of things?

OP here. If I wanted quality of life, I would move from NYC to any one of a number of cities with a lower CoL, and get a 9-5 in-house gig. The in-house roles where you make NYC salaries and have actually have legitimate business side decision making capability are few and far between. I was just thinking I would rather retool then have to put up with NDA review at a Hedge Fund or PE shop. While I know the business folks have their own drudgery work, I am willing to take that on. Could be grass is always greener, could be I am not cut out to be a lawyer.

[Lincoln]

Buddy of mine who was in corporate studied quant stuff after work and on weekends with this place: http://pillarsofwallstreet.com/. He eventually landed a gig as an associate at a top investment bank. I have no idea if that's typical, but it worked for him.

[elendinel]

Not totally in line with what you are necessarily seeking, but in a few months you can code bootcamp yourself into becoming a reasonably competent programmer (think Python or SQL or some other database or scripting language). Given that you (presumably) did well enough on the LSAT to get into a T6, and have 5 years as a biglaw associate, you should have the logical basis needed for programming.

Lots of tech jobs open for competent computer programmers, and they have wayyyyyy better hours/telecommute options than just about every other job out there.

Lolno.

Bootcamps will make you competent in coding specific things in a few months, but you won't be anything close to a competent programmer in just a few months. 4-year UG degrees in Comp Sci still exist for a reason. You will get pigeon-holed and you won't get to work at a Google or Microsoft where they're working on exciting new tech.

And the logic used in law does not necessarily translate to the sort used for programming. That's like saying all lawyers should be good at high level math if they did well on the LSAT.

People really need to stop acting like coding is an easy panacea for when someone hates their job.

I mean it is true though. If you just start programming, you'll pick it up very quickly. My current job wanted me to learn python for a task, and within a month I've developed a pretty well rounded set of abilities in the language. All you really need to be good at this stuff is a semi-functional brain and the ability to use google.

"[A] semi-functional brain and the ability to use google" and a few months of training is not going to get you a job that's less mind-numbing that first-year doc review. It's just not. Learning how to design a website by putting together code snippets from Stack Overflow doesn't make you a good programmer capable of getting a good job.

The only exception I know to this is that particular bootcamps have ins with particular companies and push for their students to get hired doing low-end work in those companies so that they can say "Our students get jobs at ____!" You will get pigeon-holed and you will have trouble advancing until you get trained on things you would have been trained on had you entered a full CS/SWE program.

Also, your high level math comparison is flawed. I didn't say he'd be good at programming because he was a lawyer, it's the fact that he has a strong enough grasp on logical analysis (the basis for coding) to score high enough on the LSAT to get into a T6. Some kid from Cooley would probably be awful at programming, but they would have already showcased their low ceiling by going to Cooley in the first place.

You misunderstand my comparison. I was saying that arguing that good LSAT score = good programming acumen is as logical as arguing that good LSAT score = talent for high-level mathematics. Which is a reasonable comparison, considering CS is heavily based on math, and because both math and CS require different skills and different logical reasoning than law. For sure there are people who are good at both, but that's because they can think in both modes, and not because being good at making legal arguments or LSAT logic games makes you a good mathematician/a good coder, or vice-versa. Plenty of good engineers can't get good scores on the LSAT, and vice-versa. It is illogical to think that a perfect LSAT score directly indicates anything about a person's ability to understand scientific concepts (which you do need to understand to write good code/to work on projects that aren't completely mind-numbing), or vice-versa.

The idea that someone from a bad law school would be bad at programming is illogical for much the same reasons.