3L. Screwed up. What to do? NYU LLM in Tax? Forum

[Anonymous User]

[Please don’t quote]

Guys, I f@#$ed up.

T-25 to T-35 jobless 3L. Just got dinged by two Big 4 firms after the final round interviews. I honestly do not know what went wrong. One of my networking ventures turned into a callback interview last year for a summer position. I did not get it. One year later, after obtaining more tax experience and finishing more tax courses, I emailed the same partner and he granted me a second chance. They flew me in and I somehow managed to blow it. Again. For the second firm, both rounds of interviews went really well. They all exceeded the scheduled time and I felt like I really clicked with the interviewers. Still got the ding. I did heavy prepping for all my interviews. I went over pages of behavioral questions, researched the firms, did mock interviews with people at my CSO. I even did mock interviews with local alumni that work at these firms. Everyone told me I was personable and that I will do well.

I took all the tax classes offered at my school, completed four tax internships, and have decent grades (top 25%). I networked like hell. I event went to undergrad job fairs where I introduced myself to people at the accounting firms. I actually obtained an interview from a firm by doing that.

Right now, I feel like I did all of this for nothing. I went tax or bust and right now, it feels pretty bust. I barely have any bar classes on my transcript (I took 5 tax courses + accounting/business/finance stuff). I have absolutely no litigation experience so that eliminates me from like 90% of the small law firms out there. I feel pretty crushed right now. My school is not the greatest, but sometimes I feel like the only person without an offer.

The question is what now? I check Symplicity every single day. I am actively applying through various job sites. I massmailed over the weekend. I still have one firm that I have not heard back from but it has been almost two weeks so it is not looking good. It has been hard to sleep. I have been pushing myself to not miss a single class to keep my grades up even though every fiber of my being feels like staying in bed. Oh yeah, I also applied to two local police academies. Had an offer before law school, chose law school instead. Right now my decision feels so not worth it.

Alternatively, I have thought about a tax LLM at NYU. However, I am concerned that if law school did not work out for me this time around, going to law school again just seems risky.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/l ... candidates

I found these employment stats on their site but these seem too good to be true. Can anyone weigh in on this? I feel like these stats could be misleading because there might be people who already had offers that are attending the institution. How hard is it to get Big 4 from NYU?

At the end of the day, I loved working with tax and I want a career in it. I really enjoyed working with the IRC and my state’s code. I think I would enjoy compliance work as well.

Anyone have any thoughts on any of this? Is there something else I should be doing? Is there an avenue I have not explored yet? TLS saved me from a terrible decision of taking a T-25 at sticker price four years ago. Everyday I thank god I retook. I am hoping for some piece of wisdom again.

Law school has been such a failed venture. Right now, it just feels like three years of my life gone. At least I will graduate with no debt and I possibly met my future wife.

[t-14orbust]

I think NYU Tax LLM is the way to go for you. I know someone that went to a TTT in CA and then got a tax LLM at another CA TTT and is now a senior associate at PWC in international tax

[Anonymous User]

Hey,

I would keep hustling. Did u exhaust all big 4? Also, their hiring tends to be more spring-focused, so u should take that into account as well.
And yes, NYU #s are inflated by those who already have a job. Only like 15 got biglaw out of it last year. Tho Big4 seems to be slightly easier to get (but still, consensus seems to be at least median at NYU Tax LLM).

Best of luck. And just know that u r not the only one w/o an offer. Many are hustling together. Dont keep your hopes down. You can do it!

[foregetaboutdre]

[Please don’t quote]

Guys, I f@#$ed up.

T-25 to T-35 jobless 3L. Just got dinged by two Big 4 firms after the final round interviews. I honestly do not know what went wrong. One of my networking ventures turned into a callback interview last year for a summer position. I did not get it. One year later, after obtaining more tax experience and finishing more tax courses, I emailed the same partner and he granted me a second chance. They flew me in and I somehow managed to blow it. Again. For the second firm, both rounds of interviews went really well. They all exceeded the scheduled time and I felt like I really clicked with the interviewers. Still got the ding. I did heavy prepping for all my interviews. I went over pages of behavioral questions, researched the firms, did mock interviews with people at my CSO. I even did mock interviews with local alumni that work at these firms. Everyone told me I was personable and that I will do well.

I took all the tax classes offered at my school, completed four tax internships, and have decent grades (top 25%). I networked like hell. I event went to undergrad job fairs where I introduced myself to people at the accounting firms. I actually obtained an interview from a firm by doing that.

Right now, I feel like I did all of this for nothing. I went tax or bust and right now, it feels pretty bust. I barely have any bar classes on my transcript (I took 5 tax courses + accounting/business/finance stuff). I have absolutely no litigation experience so that eliminates me from like 90% of the small law firms out there. I feel pretty crushed right now. My school is not the greatest, but sometimes I feel like the only person without an offer.

The question is what now? I check Symplicity every single day. I am actively applying through various job sites. I massmailed over the weekend. I still have one firm that I have not heard back from but it has been almost two weeks so it is not looking good. It has been hard to sleep. I have been pushing myself to not miss a single class to keep my grades up even though every fiber of my being feels like staying in bed. Oh yeah, I also applied to two local police academies. Had an offer before law school, chose law school instead. Right now my decision feels so not worth it.

Alternatively, I have thought about a tax LLM at NYU. However, I am concerned that if law school did not work out for me this time around, going to law school again just seems risky.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/l ... candidates

I found these employment stats on their site but these seem too good to be true. Can anyone weigh in on this? I feel like these stats could be misleading because there might be people who already had offers that are attending the institution. How hard is it to get Big 4 from NYU?

At the end of the day, I loved working with tax and I want a career in it. I really enjoyed working with the IRC and my state’s code. I think I would enjoy compliance work as well.

Anyone have any thoughts on any of this? Is there something else I should be doing? Is there an avenue I have not explored yet? TLS saved me from a terrible decision of taking a T-25 at sticker price four years ago. Everyday I thank god I retook. I am hoping for some piece of wisdom again.

Law school has been such a failed venture. Right now, it just feels like three years of my life gone. At least I will graduate with no debt and I possibly met my future wife.

Are you at all by chance from a secondary market? Some of the biglaw/midlaw firms in my secondary market (I've noticed) have tax attorneys that are NYU/NW LLMs, but went to a TTT law school (you'd be in better shape). Some of these I got dinged at....(which is kind of lame when I expressed an interest in tax, went to a decent school, but lacked an LLM). Tax LLM seems like a backdoor into these secondary market big/midlaw firms (that pay over 100k) into their tax/estate planning/employee benefits practice.

Tax LLM also looks like a good way to get into a big 4.

Tax LLM doesn't look so hot for NYC/major market biglaw if you lack it. But better than nothing.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for the responses!

I'm going to look into the NYU Tax LLM. I will probably talk to one of my tax professors about giving me contact information from alumni that are currently in the program (I think there are 2...). I am just wondering how much of NYU's "41% in accounting firms" is from non-pre-offered-before-LLM people.

Yeah, I will keep hustling. It's so easy to feel down sometimes. I have moments where I am really motivated and moments where I am too down to do anything. I also did not know about the hiring season in Spring.

No, I am from a major market. Unfortunately, my school's location is not which honestly kind of sucks and adds to my frustration. My school's market is really insular. Almost all of the hometown kids are employed (and they vary in wide range in class rankings). I like my school, but if I had to do it all over again, I probably would have taken a full ride from a Tier 2 school in my hometown. I kind of had to go out and beyond in networking to get those two interviews from my home market, which I converted both into in office interviews.

I want Big 4 over Biglaw so that's not too bad. I just don't want to spend an extra year and like 50-70 grand if I don't have to.

[Johann]

Do the tax llm.

[lavarman84]

You're graduating with no debt. I'd say you're in a good position. You can do the NYU LLM. It would likely help you out immensely. I also recommend you keep hustling this year. You still have a shot at getting a job. I wouldn't blame yourself for those interviews. You just have to keep in mind that you're competing with a bunch of other for one or a few spots. You not getting the job doesn't mean you bombed the interview or your credentials sucked. It just means that somebody else was more impressive. Nothing you can control there. Just do your best to be calm and relaxed.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

Thanks everyone! I am going to keep looking for jobs but will definitely apply. I will contact a professor and two former tax employers for LORs today. How badly will it hurt that no matter what I do, my undergrad degree is complete garbage? If anything, I regret my major in UG more than anything that happened in law school. Knowing what I do now, I definitely would have majored in finance/accounting.

I have to say, I am a bit surprised that people on here are not that negative towards the NYU LLM tax path. Maybe the times have changed, but I remember TLS being a lot more negative to the idea of shelling out money for more law school.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

Thanks everyone! I am going to keep looking for jobs but will definitely apply. I will contact a professor and two former tax employers for LORs today. How badly will it hurt that no matter what I do, my undergrad degree is complete garbage? If anything, I regret my major in UG more than anything that happened in law school. Knowing what I do now, I definitely would have majored in finance/accounting.

I have to say, I am a bit surprised that people on here are not that negative towards the NYU LLM tax path. Maybe the times have changed, but I remember TLS being a lot more negative to the idea of shelling out money for more law school.

I think it's all fact dependent and in your case, NYU tax llm is a much more justifiable path because:
1) you have a genuine, demonstrated interest in tax with reasonable grades in your JD program,
2) you would be willing to work for big4 (not biglaw or bust), and
3) you are graduating debt free, so the debt you will incur at NYU won't be another 70k on top of 100-150k most ppl have in their negative accounts.

good luck op. Best case scenario would be to apply, get accepted, keep it as an option, keep hustling during the spring and hopefully land a job that will pay for your llm along the way.

[Winter is Coming]

For most people, I worry about them "doubling-down" on an LLM. But your situation (combined with the lack of debt) makes it really seem like its probably worth it. Definitely talk to your professors and do some more research.

[FloridaCoastalorbust]

Agreed with everyone. Do the LLM for sure. And try to get a job up until then and even during it. If you land a job you like while or just before you start your LLM, just drop.

[J. Unfriendly]

Apply to Grant, BDO or another large accounting firm. You won't have any problems lateraling to a big four after a year or two, if you still want to.

[Anonymous User]

In the same boat as OP. Interviewed with two Big 4 accounting firms and struck out. Planning to try again in the spring and maybe apply for an LLM Tax program as aback up, but I've been in school for so long and really just want some full time work experience. (K-JD). Unlike OP, I don't have any tax experience, I was a business major in undergrad and somehow developed an interest in taxation. My question is, if I reapply for positions with Big 4 accounting firms with no tax experience, would I have a better chance with core tax or would I be better off with transfer pricing?

The accounting firms have different names for both, I think KPMG calls their transfer pricing group economics valuation or something. Either way, I'm interested to hear on people's experience/advice.

Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

OP here. FWIW, my classmate with worse grades and two tax internships landed an offer and I did not. We did the same two tax internships but I did two additional ones. We went to the same undergrad but he was a business major and I was a dumpster fire political science major. I think you will be fine either way. I think having a business major is definitely a plus.

I had final round interviews with transfer pricing at another big 4 firm and they basically said they expect no one to know anything about transfer pricing. The partner that interviewed me herself had no accounting background and she mentioned she did not know what it was when she started either. I don't think it matters as much as long as you can show a demonstrated interest. Then again, a guy with the same stats + experience would probably get in before you. In the mean time, is it possible to get some tax experience?

[Anonymous User]

As a current tax associate, if you are at all interested in tax, it is definitely worth it to hold out for a tax job instead of settling for a corporate slot.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. FWIW, my classmate with worse grades and two tax internships landed an offer and I did not. We did the same two tax internships but I did two additional ones. We went to the same undergrad but he was a business major and I was a dumpster fire political science major. I think you will be fine either way. I think having a business major is definitely a plus.

I had final round interviews with transfer pricing at another big 4 firm and they basically said they expect no one to know anything about transfer pricing. The partner that interviewed me herself had no accounting background and she mentioned she did not know what it was when she started either. I don't think it matters as much as long as you can show a demonstrated interest. Then again, a guy with the same stats + experience would probably get in before you. In the mean time, is it possible to get some tax experience?

I doubt I'll be able to get tax experience before I graduate (I'm a 3L graduating in May). The big four firms recruit heavily from the business school, that's how I got one of my interviews. Hopefully I have better luck in the spring semester. I'm interested in smaller size accounting firms but none seem to be hiring international students.

[JD2013Tax]

OP here. Thanks for the responses!

I want Big 4 over Biglaw so that's not too bad. I just don't want to spend an extra year and like 50-70 grand if I don't have to.

What market are you in? Shoot me a PM.
Same goes for other anon in this thread trying for big 4.

[UnfrozenCaveman]

At least apply. Then if you find a job, don't go.

I think NYU and Georgetown both have visiting 3L programs too. So maybe a way to start early?

[dabigchina]

This may have been addressed, but have you applied to the big nationals (BDO, Grant Thornton, Whatever the hell McGladrey is calling themselves nowadays)?

I'm not sure if they would give you a JD bump but my gut says they would.

Also, if you really want that Big4 preftige you can always lateral as a senior.

As for why you struck out, it's probably more a function of the market than anything. All the firms over-hired in the last few years. See Deloitte's mass layoffs.

[Anonymous User]

I once attended an information session provided by an accounting firm. Attorneys who worked there gave the presentation and especially the Transfer Pricing division hired several lawyers with a JD. There were a bunch of job opportunities back then ( after OCI but before summer). You can start working at this type of firm and then move to a law firm, I guess.

p.s. I don't do any tax stuff and accidentally attended this session.
p.s. 2. I re-read your post and learned that Big 4 firms meant the Big 4 accounting firms. So never mind.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Wow, has it really been a year since I posted this?

As for the results, I enrolled in the program. I ended up getting 3 callbacks the first month I was here and accepted an offer at a firm that I feel I will be really happy at. Best part is, it is in my significant other's market so it all turned out for the best!

Anyway, I wanted to thank everyone again for their help. I was kind of in a dark place and even a little assurance from strangers gave me a push in the right direction.

...and now, back to studying tax 6-8 hours a day.

[Anonymous User]

Any chance you could PM me? As it goes, I'm also in a weird spot right now and considering a Tax LLM. And congrats!

[beautyistruth]

^Sorry, did not mean to post anon! (I'm the poster above, not the original OP, by the way).

[Alt123]

nvm

[foregetaboutdre]

OP here. Wow, has it really been a year since I posted this?

As for the results, I enrolled in the program. I ended up getting 3 callbacks the first month I was here and accepted an offer at a firm that I feel I will be really happy at. Best part is, it is in my significant other's market so it all turned out for the best!

Anyway, I wanted to thank everyone again for their help. I was kind of in a dark place and even a little assurance from strangers gave me a push in the right direction.

...and now, back to studying tax 6-8 hours a day.

This is awesome! Congrats!