Biglawyers. Are any of you happy? Was this job better than others you've had? Forum

[Frayed Knot]

This isn't exactly on point, but I'm wondering what kind of advice you guys have. In other words, should I quit biglaw/law with no job lined up? What would you do if you were me?

I'm a couple/few years into biglaw. My spouse and i make over 250k a year (obviously most is my income). We have combined 40k in student loan debt and between 150k to 180k liquid saved up/invested. We have no mortgage or kids. My parents as of next year will start giving us 13,500 (or whatever the tax exempt gift is) per year. In 15-20 years, we will probably inherit somewhere between 2 to 5 million or so (but that is a long, long time from now and we are expected to work hard in a "career".) I really hate my job and frankly, I don't like the practice of law. Should I quit after bonuses with no job lined up? I really need to figure out what i want to do with my life, but I have no idea at this point. I just know what I don't want to do.

I think a lot of the work in biglaw is boring and tedious. I think half the people are assholes and/or sociopaths who care about the most inane shit. Instead of envying partners and senior associates, I pity them. Really though, biglaw is full of crazies.

What is your annual spending? How long would your savings last if you kept that spending level but only had your wife's income? Are there any ways you could reduce that to last longer? (Moving/selling cars would be the big ones.) Do you have ideas about what you'd like to do if you leave the law? If so, are they things you can pursue before you leave or do you need more time to pursue them? If you don't know, why not? Can you figure that out before making an irrevocable decision? Do you plan to have kids? Ever? Soon? If so, what sort of standard of living would you like them to have? How would your spouse feel about all this? About lifestyle changes? About being the major breadwinner?

In general, I'd tend to say that quitting without something lined up is really dangerous—especially in the mental state you describe. It could be all too easy to give yourself a break to recharge after BigLaw and, before you know it, find yourself with a long resume gap that you have trouble explaining to the next employer. But you know yourself better than any of us can, and only you know how bad your current job is.

Good luck with your choice. Whatever you decide, I hope it works out for you. This profession can be really rough, and I hope things turn around for you.

[Johann]

as soon as i get off tonight im taking a cab to the south side and walking around for the next few hours. heres to hoping.

[Anonymous User]

This isn't exactly on point, but I'm wondering what kind of advice you guys have. In other words, should I quit biglaw/law with no job lined up? What would you do if you were me?

I'm a couple/few years into biglaw. My spouse and i make over 250k a year (obviously most is my income). We have combined 40k in student loan debt and between 150k to 180k liquid saved up/invested. We have no mortgage or kids. My parents as of next year will start giving us 13,500 (or whatever the tax exempt gift is) per year. In 15-20 years, we will probably inherit somewhere between 2 to 5 million or so (but that is a long, long time from now and we are expected to work hard in a "career".) I really hate my job and frankly, I don't like the practice of law. Should I quit after bonuses with no job lined up? I really need to figure out what i want to do with my life, but I have no idea at this point. I just know what I don't want to do.

I think a lot of the work in biglaw is boring and tedious. I think half the people are assholes and/or sociopaths who care about the most inane shit. Instead of envying partners and senior associates, I pity them. Really though, biglaw is full of crazies.

What is your annual spending? How long would your savings last if you kept that spending level but only had your wife's income? Are there any ways you could reduce that to last longer? (Moving/selling cars would be the big ones.) Do you have ideas about what you'd like to do if you leave the law? If so, are they things you can pursue before you leave or do you need more time to pursue them? If you don't know, why not? Can you figure that out before making an irrevocable decision? Do you plan to have kids? Ever? Soon? If so, what sort of standard of living would you like them to have? How would your spouse feel about all this? About lifestyle changes? About being the major breadwinner?

In general, I'd tend to say that quitting without something lined up is really dangerous—especially in the mental state you describe. It could be all too easy to give yourself a break to recharge after BigLaw and, before you know it, find yourself with a long resume gap that you have trouble explaining to the next employer. But you know yourself better than any of us can, and only you know how bad your current job is.

Good luck with your choice. Whatever you decide, I hope it works out for you. This profession can be really rough, and I hope things turn around for you.

We live in NYC - so our COL is high, but our savings could still last us a couple of years. I have ideas, but I may have to go back to school for a year or two....I don't want to go back to a similar office job so it would be something completely different. I haven't pinpointed it yet though. I wouldn't mind doing something crazy for a couple of years, like teach English abroad.

We have thought about having kids in maybe 5 years or so, but definitely not in NYC or any big city. I'd prefer living in the suburbs or some smaller town/city somewhere cheap. My parents would probably buy us a house if we moved somewhere cheaper, and especially if we had kids (they bought my brother a house in the suburbs and he has no kids). If we had kids, I know they'd be a lot more generous (as awful as that sounds). If we ever have kids, I'd want them to have a regular, middle class upbringing in the suburbs and go to public school. The entire "raising kids in NYC" thing sounds insane to me, and spending 40k a year on private education is a waste of money. People here don't seem to mind spending insane amounts of money for everything, and they for the most part are wage slaves who don't seem very happy (or maybe it's just the lawyers).

It's not really a mental state - I've been thinking about this for at least a couple of years. I figure it's about time I do something. I can't spend literally every day thinking about doing another job. When I'm busy, I hate this job. When I'm slow, I hate this job and I get anxious about billables. Most of my close friends in this job hate this job. Maybe we're all bitter, but it seems like 90% of biglawyers hate their jobs.

[los blancos]

idk it's hard to say honestly but if I was you I'd just coast until I figure out what I really want to do. Don't see any real advantage to just ragequitting, though it matters a lot less since you don't want to practice law (just be totally sure about this first).

Don't needlessly eat into your savings, you've worked too damn hard to pile up dat cash. I'd figure out what comes next and then get the hell out of NYC.

[El Pollito]

maybe don't be a complete burden on your wife

[El Pollito]

This isn't exactly on point, but I'm wondering what kind of advice you guys have. In other words, should I quit biglaw/law with no job lined up? What would you do if you were me?

I'm a couple/few years into biglaw. My spouse and i make over 250k a year (obviously most is my income). We have combined 40k in student loan debt and between 150k to 180k liquid saved up/invested. We have no mortgage or kids. My parents as of next year will start giving us 13,500 (or whatever the tax exempt gift is) per year. In 15-20 years, we will probably inherit somewhere between 2 to 5 million or so (but that is a long, long time from now and we are expected to work hard in a "career".) I really hate my job and frankly, I don't like the practice of law. Should I quit after bonuses with no job lined up? I really need to figure out what i want to do with my life, but I have no idea at this point. I just know what I don't want to do.

I think a lot of the work in biglaw is boring and tedious. I think half the people are assholes and/or sociopaths who care about the most inane shit. Instead of envying partners and senior associates, I pity them. Really though, biglaw is full of crazies.

No. Get a job first.

What if I'm thinking of quitting law entirely?

i wouldn't recommend looking for a job with no job, looks like you got shitcanned or are unstable

[Anonymous User]

This isn't exactly on point, but I'm wondering what kind of advice you guys have. In other words, should I quit biglaw/law with no job lined up? What would you do if you were me?

I'm a couple/few years into biglaw. My spouse and i make over 250k a year (obviously most is my income). We have combined 40k in student loan debt and between 150k to 180k liquid saved up/invested. We have no mortgage or kids. My parents as of next year will start giving us 13,500 (or whatever the tax exempt gift is) per year. In 15-20 years, we will probably inherit somewhere between 2 to 5 million or so (but that is a long, long time from now and we are expected to work hard in a "career".) I really hate my job and frankly, I don't like the practice of law. Should I quit after bonuses with no job lined up? I really need to figure out what i want to do with my life, but I have no idea at this point. I just know what I don't want to do.

I think a lot of the work in biglaw is boring and tedious. I think half the people are assholes and/or sociopaths who care about the most inane shit. Instead of envying partners and senior associates, I pity them. Really though, biglaw is full of crazies.

No. Get a job first.

What if I'm thinking of quitting law entirely?

i wouldn't recommend looking for a job with no job, looks like you got shitcanned or are unstable

A few of my coworkers did this though to find other professions. A bunch ended up back in law......a year or two later. So I guess their plan didn't work out, but fortunately they all got out of biglaw. I think they wanted to do something completely different though.

As for being a "burden" - I pay most of the bills, 90% of our savings is my savings, and my parents are the ones that would help us out.

Also we don't have any kids, so who the fuck cares what we do at this point, right?

[Frayed Knot]

That all makes sense. It sounds like you've given it a lot of thought. Listening to you, my gut says to quit—but to quit with a plan. (And not a plan where step one is "figure out what I want to do").

You have the luxury of low debt, (relatively) high savings, and generous parental support. Those are all great, but they also make it all-too-easy to muddle around without a plan for long enough to do real damage to your employability. Even for non-law jobs, sitting out from the workforce without a good reason for more than a few months isn't a great look.

I know it's hard to make concrete plans while dealing with the hours/stress of BigLaw, but I think that's the best option. At least that's my 2¢.

EDIT: You've probably already seen it, but if not: this blog might interest you. It's by a lawyer who went through a similar debate. He ended up sticking it out long enough to "retire" on his savings in his 30s, though that's not the path for everyone. (Some of the old posts are likely the most relevant)

[El Pollito]

This isn't exactly on point, but I'm wondering what kind of advice you guys have. In other words, should I quit biglaw/law with no job lined up? What would you do if you were me?

I'm a couple/few years into biglaw. My spouse and i make over 250k a year (obviously most is my income). We have combined 40k in student loan debt and between 150k to 180k liquid saved up/invested. We have no mortgage or kids. My parents as of next year will start giving us 13,500 (or whatever the tax exempt gift is) per year. In 15-20 years, we will probably inherit somewhere between 2 to 5 million or so (but that is a long, long time from now and we are expected to work hard in a "career".) I really hate my job and frankly, I don't like the practice of law. Should I quit after bonuses with no job lined up? I really need to figure out what i want to do with my life, but I have no idea at this point. I just know what I don't want to do.

I think a lot of the work in biglaw is boring and tedious. I think half the people are assholes and/or sociopaths who care about the most inane shit. Instead of envying partners and senior associates, I pity them. Really though, biglaw is full of crazies.

No. Get a job first.

What if I'm thinking of quitting law entirely?

i wouldn't recommend looking for a job with no job, looks like you got shitcanned or are unstable

A few of my coworkers did this though to find other professions. A bunch ended up back in law......a year or two later. So I guess their plan didn't work out, but fortunately they all got out of biglaw. I think they wanted to do something completely different though.

As for being a "burden" - I pay most of the bills, 90% of our savings is my savings, and my parents are the ones that would help us out.

Also we don't have any kids, so who the fuck cares what we do at this point, right?

it's pretty silly if you don't think being unemployed would be burdensome in a number of ways, but you do you since you obviously want people to tell you to quit

[Anonymous User]

That all makes sense. It sounds like you've given it a lot of thought. Listening to you, my gut says to quit—but to quit with a plan. (And not a plan where step one is "figure out what I want to do").

You have the luxury of low debt, (relatively) high savings, and generous parental support. Those are all great, but they also make it all-too-easy to muddle around without a plan for long enough to do real damage to your employability. Even for non-law jobs, sitting out from the workforce without a good reason for more than a few months isn't a great look.

I know it's hard to make concrete plans while dealing with the hours/stress of BigLaw, but I think that's the best option. At least that's my 2¢.

Yeah, I probably need to shadow people in the jobs I'm thinking about though, before I commit to another profession. It's just impossible to do while in biglaw since you are on call 24/7 and people bitch and moan if you aren't in the office when they call.

This profession wouldn't be nearly as bad if all of the senior people weren't neurotic.

[los blancos]

As for being a "burden" - I pay most of the bills, 90% of our savings is my savings, and my parents are the ones that would help us out.

Also we don't have any kids, so who the fuck cares what we do at this point, right?

I may be misreading, and this is a bit of a digression, but "you" don't pay any of the bills, your salary does. (there's a difference)

I know it's hard to make concrete plans while dealing with the hours/stress of BigLaw, but I think that's the best option. At least that's my 2¢.

This is what I was trying to get at earlier with just coasting. Idk if his workflow makes it possible, but there's no reason to quit until they make you quit and/or fire you. So just bill 5 hours a day and spend the rest doing research and/or plotting your escape.

[Frayed Knot]

Yeah, I probably need to shadow people in the jobs I'm thinking about though, before I commit to another profession. It's just impossible to do while in biglaw since you are on call 24/7 and people bitch and moan if you aren't in the office when they call.

Yeah, you may have to drop the ball/disappoint people/get yelled at some to be able to do the research you need to do. It won't be easy, but it's still worth doing.

This profession wouldn't be nearly as bad if all of the senior people weren't neurotic.

QFT

[ballouttacontrol]

I mean, having grown up in the hood but also going to a solid middle class high school across town, w/ friends from both, I don't know a single person near my age that makes anywhere close to a biglaw salary.

I get a lot of you like most ppl I know from top 10 law schools general grew up around the 1% and shit but saying you can so easily make 6 figs in these other industries with easy hours is laughable

The next highest paid person I know after myself is a contruction super, who makes probably $110k all in, and while I'd probably rather do that than work biglaw is not a cushy job. Several programmer friends and, in their mid 20s are in the 60-90k range

[A. Nony Mouse]

But you have to keep in mind that the people unhappy in biglaw are doing all their own work, rather than outsourcing any of it to a Chinese kid.

[Anonymous User]

EDIT: You've probably already seen it, but if not: this blog might interest you. It's by a lawyer who went through a similar debate. He ended up sticking it out long enough to "retire" on his savings in his 30s, though that's not the path for everyone. (Some of the old posts are likely the most relevant)

Thanks for this, good blog

[Anonymous User]

I mean, having grown up in the hood but also going to a solid middle class high school across town, w/ friends from both, I don't know a single person near my age that makes anywhere close to a biglaw salary.

I get a lot of you like most ppl I know from top 10 law schools general grew up around the 1% and shit but saying you can so easily make 6 figs in these other industries with easy hours is laughable

The next highest paid person I know after myself is a contruction super, who makes probably $110k all in, and while I'd probably rather do that than work biglaw is not a cushy job. Several programmer friends and, in their mid 20s are in the 60-90k range

I have a lot of the same sentiments. I grew up in a rough immigrant neigborhood, was in foster care all of the childhood I can remember, and went to really shitty and dangerous inner city public schools in one of the worst parts of my city. So sure, much of the work I do is tedious, boring, and there are some stressful moments on filing days or whatever, but biglaw feels like a walk in the park compared to what my life was like before. I now live in one of the nicest and safest parts of that same city, I feel lucky and grateful to have my job. Admittedly, I actually like my co-workers and have a pretty decent work-life balance though.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a year and a half in at a standard big law firm, transactional, and absolutely miserable. My hours are objectively bad compared to my 9-5 friends, but not bad by big law standards.

The real issue with transactional big law is the work. It's mind-numbing paper pushing and, most importantly, doesn't get better. You're not "putting in your dues" on the way to a better position. Even the most senior partners are pushing paper with client management responsibility. By the time work gets to a transactional lawyer the business people have ironed out what actually matters.

If you have other prospects don't go, although litigation seems marginally better.

[Anonymous User]

As a stub year reading this, I feel scared about what could come up but also trying to gauge how many people here are complainers/negative outlook no matter what job they have.

I've averaged 40-45 hour weeks over the past few months and there have been some stressful moments. But all in all, I like this job (NYC, 160k, V100). I look at the senior associates and partners and it doesn't seem that bad. I know they are busier than I am and I see them send emails around midnight pretty frequently. I know this will be me if I don't get fired before then.

I keep trying to reconcile if my firm is a special snowflake. There is no face time requirement. The associates and partners are nice to me and seem like balanced people who are involved with their families. I can work remotely at any point. I am the only stub year in my practice group. No one expects a tight turnaround outside of business hours.

But I read TLS frequently and the common refrain seems to be "you can't judge it after a few months" and "things will get shitty later" so i feel like I am just waiting for the shitstorm to arrive. I like it right now. I get a dumptruck of cash in my bank account every 2 weeks, have a nice apartment, and sit in an office with free coffee whenever I want it. What is so bad about it? Why is this supposed to be hell on earth?

Maybe high debt load affects how people feel about biglaw? I have around 60k so I feel that pain but it seems manageable. Different people are different. Different practice groups are different. Different law firms are different. I think that's my main takeaway as a naive biglaw attorney.

[ballouttacontrol]

But you have to keep in mind that the people unhappy in biglaw are doing all their own work, rather than outsourcing any of it to a Chinese kid.

ahhh ctfu!! lol it was clearly a hypo!!

it was not my intent to speak to job satisfaction, being a 3L and all

I have worked before LS and my point was more directed at the people acting like these other jobs will just be paying you nearly biglaw money at age 25. I have a desirable technical degree and still couldn't find anything close to what law offers.

[PMan99]

As a stub year reading this, I feel scared about what could come up but also trying to gauge how many people here are complainers/negative outlook no matter what job they have.

I've averaged 40-45 hour weeks over the past few months and there have been some stressful moments. But all in all, I like this job (NYC, 160k, V100). I look at the senior associates and partners and it doesn't seem that bad. I know they are busier than I am and I see them send emails around midnight pretty frequently. I know this will be me if I don't get fired before then.

I keep trying to reconcile if my firm is a special snowflake. There is no face time requirement. The associates and partners are nice to me and seem like balanced people who are involved with their families. I can work remotely at any point. I am the only stub year in my practice group. No one expects a tight turnaround outside of business hours.

But I read TLS frequently and the common refrain seems to be "you can't judge it after a few months" and "things will get shitty later" so i feel like I am just waiting for the shitstorm to arrive. I like it right now. I get a dumptruck of cash in my bank account every 2 weeks, have a nice apartment, and sit in an office with free coffee whenever I want it. What is so bad about it? Why is this supposed to be hell on earth?

Maybe high debt load affects how people feel about biglaw? I have around 60k so I feel that pain but it seems manageable. Different people are different. Different practice groups are different. Different law firms are different. I think that's my main takeaway as a naive biglaw attorney.

I felt the exact same my stub year. Biglaw was GREAT and cashing that check was fantastic as well.

Then that case settled, I got staffed on a couple of different cases, and the all nighters, 7 AM Saturday firedrills, out-of-the-blue Friday afternoon assignment dumps, etc. started coming and haven't stopped since. There is some wisdom in your last paragraph - not about debt (though that's partially true as well), but about differences between partners, practice groups, law firms, etc... Who you work for will absolutely make or break your experience.

[homestyle28]

15 months in. I would say I'm content like 55% of the time. It's better than the other menial jobs I've had, but it's rare that I'm excited to come to work. I'm in Lit, sometimes I get to go to court (small matters/Pro bono) and those are good days. Had a 2-week trial in my first year, which was intense (like 180 hours in 2 weeks), but also engaging and was better than doc review.

There are 2 things that really bother me: a) all my friends here are unhappy/planning to leave b) the future is so uncertain. Who even knows what it takes to make partner (we're not ewyk, but still), in-house isn't very appealing on the lit side (review bills and...???), gov gigs can't pay my bills, etc.

But I've gotten to do some decent resume-building things, learned some shit (even if it wasn't hard), and paid my bills. Not the worst thing ever.

[nealric]

I'm a year and a half in at a standard big law firm, transactional, and absolutely miserable. My hours are objectively bad compared to my 9-5 friends, but not bad by big law standards.

The real issue with transactional big law is the work. It's mind-numbing paper pushing and, most importantly, doesn't get better. You're not "putting in your dues" on the way to a better position. Even the most senior partners are pushing paper with client management responsibility. By the time work gets to a transactional lawyer the business people have ironed out what actually matters.

If you have other prospects don't go, although litigation seems marginally better.

Switch to tax my friend

[BmoreOrLess]

No. Get a job first.

What if I'm thinking of quitting law entirely?

i wouldn't recommend looking for a job with no job, looks like you got shitcanned or are unstable

This. One of my best friends is a non-law recruiter and basically said this exact thing when I was considering switching careers before law school.

[krads153]

But you have to keep in mind that the people unhappy in biglaw are doing all their own work, rather than outsourcing any of it to a Chinese kid.

ahhh ctfu!! lol it was clearly a hypo!!

it was not my intent to speak to job satisfaction, being a 3L and all

I have worked before LS and my point was more directed at the people acting like these other jobs will just be paying you nearly biglaw money at age 25. I have a desirable technical degree and still couldn't find anything close to what law offers.

We're not saying programmers make on average 160k or whatever. We're saying many still make six figures straight out of college (which is objectively true) with better hours. Yes, you may have to live in the Bay Area where it's expensive, but a lot of lawyers are living in expensive areas anyway. And many, if not most of these programmers don't have any student loans from undergrad.

I don't think anyone said that you will make biglaw money with just a college degree (although to be honest, a fair number of my friends in finance do make that with just a college degree after 5+ years in the industry). But these people aren't throwing 200k into the trash for a degree either.

I don't know what state you're from, but a lot of people make six figures in my experience at least by their late 20s by just working up in their industry without going to grad school.

[ballouttacontrol]

Most entry level programming gigs definitely do not start at 100k