Faegre Baker Daniels? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Go to TX if the hours are even remotely similar. This thread is brutal.

[Anonymous User]

I also started out in a major market and looked to the Twin Cities as a possible good place to practice. I was able to get a lot of good info that convinced me otherwise. I don't want to reveal much more about my background - it's a small market and I may end up needing to be there. Here's what I found:

1. If you have choices, and it sounds like you do, just avoid the Twin Cities legal market entirely. The recent AmLaw midlevel associate satisfaction survey that ranks the Twin Cities the worst place in the nation to be an associate is spot on. There are a couple OK places to practice, but in general the market isn't robust enough to keep firms honest. As a result, associates are used and abused. The top firms are bigger sink or swim sweatshops than some of the worst east coast firms, with quality of life and partnership prospects just as dire, but with insanely worse pay and mediocre training and exit opportunities. Base salaries for eighth or ninth year associates top out at about as much as summer associate rates at Vault firms in any of a dozen major markets, and bonuses do not even come close to narrowing the gap.

2. Ignore what Minneapolis firm boosters say about cost-of-living. Remember, cost-of-living adjustments really only apply to locally-based costs -- your outlays for student loan payments, vacations, savings/investments, online purchases and purchases from most national retailers will stay the same. And the locally-based cost shifts won't be all in your favor... Minnesota is one of the highest tax states and your transportation costs may well increase as compared to in a major city with better transit options. Yes, once you buy a house, you'll find you can get much more for your money, but until then, extremely low apartment vacancy rates mean many young professionals here pay rents comparable with big cities. (The warehouse district is practically on par with Manhattan.)

3. If you must come to the Twin Cities, look to go in-house directly without a stopover in a local firm. Unlike in other markets where you have to take a pay cut or sacrifice sophistication to move in house, there are a lot of corporations here with large in-house law departments where you can get very sophisticated work and a great quality of life while making more than you would as an associate at one of the large local law firms. In the past, you may have needed a stopover at a local firm to build connections, but that is certainly no longer the case and might even hurt your prospects of making an in-house move.

4. If you really want to join a law firm as an associate, do not sell the mid-size firms short. A lot of them are much better places for young lawyers than the big mills (salaries/benefits, training, exit opportunities, quality of life), and still have enough relatively sophisticated work.

[nothingtosee]

I also started out in a major market and looked to the Twin Cities as a possible good place to practice. I was able to get a lot of good info that convinced me otherwise. I don't want to reveal much more about my background - it's a small market and I may end up needing to be there. Here's what I found:

1. If you have choices, and it sounds like you do, just avoid the Twin Cities legal market entirely. The recent AmLaw midlevel associate satisfaction survey that ranks the Twin Cities the worst place in the nation to be an associate is spot on. There are a couple OK places to practice, but in general the market isn't robust enough to keep firms honest. As a result, associates are used and abused. The top firms are bigger sink or swim sweatshops than some of the worst east coast firms, with quality of life and partnership prospects just as dire, but with insanely worse pay and mediocre training and exit opportunities. Base salaries for eighth or ninth year associates top out at about as much as summer associate rates at Vault firms in any of a dozen major markets, and bonuses do not even come close to narrowing the gap.

2. Ignore what Minneapolis firm boosters say about cost-of-living. Remember, cost-of-living adjustments really only apply to locally-based costs -- your outlays for student loan payments, vacations, savings/investments, online purchases and purchases from most national retailers will stay the same. And the locally-based cost shifts won't be all in your favor... Minnesota is one of the highest tax states and your transportation costs may well increase as compared to in a major city with better transit options. Yes, once you buy a house, you'll find you can get much more for your money, but until then, extremely low apartment vacancy rates mean many young professionals here pay rents comparable with big cities. (The warehouse district is practically on par with Manhattan.)

3. If you must come to the Twin Cities, look to go in-house directly without a stopover in a local firm. Unlike in other markets where you have to take a pay cut or sacrifice sophistication to move in house, there are a lot of corporations here with large in-house law departments where you can get very sophisticated work and a great quality of life while making more than you would as an associate at one of the large local law firms. In the past, you may have needed a stopover at a local firm to build connections, but that is certainly no longer the case and might even hurt your prospects of making an in-house move.

4. If you really want to join a law firm as an associate, do not sell the mid-size firms short. A lot of them are much better places for young lawyers than the big mills (salaries/benefits, training, exit opportunities, quality of life), and still have enough relatively sophisticated work.

Great post.

[bruinfan10]

Great post.

+1

[minnbills]

(The warehouse district is practically on par with Manhattan.)

Eh, this is a huge overstatement but w/e.

[Anonymous User]

(The warehouse district is practically on par with Manhattan.)

Eh, this is a huge overstatement but w/e.

Fair enough, it is an overstatement. But my buddy pays $1650/month for a decent Manhattan one bedroom and there are plenty of law firm associates paying that or more for one-bedroom apartments in Minneapolis's warehouse district (even though, yes, much cheaper rents can be had in the Twin Cities). The point is that you can't just multiply a salary number by some cost-of-living factor and get a meaningful comparison. You need to think about the line items in your budget in one city versus another and how they will change. For MOST Law Firm associates, many of the line items won't go down much or at all when moving to the Twin Cities - certainly not enough to bridge the pay gap between cities, especially at the more senior levels.

[rickgrimes69]

(The warehouse district is practically on par with Manhattan.)

Eh, this is a huge overstatement but w/e.

Fair enough, it is an overstatement. But my buddy pays $1650/month for a decent Manhattan one bedroom

Where? That's incredibly cheap for a 1BR

[MNbound]

$1625 a month? That's insane, I rent a one bedroom 5 min away from downtown mpls. that rents for $825 a month.

[bruinfan10]

$1625 a month? That's insane, I rent a one bedroom 5 min away from downtown mpls. that rents for $825 a month.

dude pm me the name of your building if you don't mind. i have a studio right next to the downtown target that's $900/month, i wouldn't mind switching. unless by 5 mins from downtown you mean like dinkytown, northeast, uptown, or somewhere that's similarly not downtown.

[minnbills]

$1625 a month? That's insane, I rent a one bedroom 5 min away from downtown mpls. that rents for $825 a month.

dude pm me the name of your building if you don't mind. i have a studio right next to the downtown target that's $900/month, i wouldn't mind switching. unless by 5 mins from downtown you mean like dinkytown, northeast, uptown, or somewhere that's similarly not downtown.

Ditto, looking for housing too, thanks man

[MNbound]

It's in Steven's square, so I'm not sure if that counts as downtown, but pretty close.

This isn't actually where I live, but it's just around the corner and seems like a nice place to me.

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/a ... 99593.html

[Anonymous User]

Anecdotally, some Minneapolis firms that have better reputations re how they treat associates include:

Lindquist
(Stinson) Leonard Street
Gray Plant

I've heard more mixed reviews of Briggs and Fredrickson.

Not sure on all, but at SL and GPM partnership chances are pretty good too, bc they hire a lower number of associates than they partners by a pretty decent margin.

The worst stories I've heard overall are from Robins, Faegre, and Dorsey (maybe in that order) and I think all the above firms pay roughly the same.

Source: working in the Twin Cities, have friends at most of these firms, went to UMN.

[bruinfan10]

Anyone know the exact MSP pay scale? Those old "infirmation" links aren't working for me.

I think it's like 110,000 and then maybe 5-10k bonuses, and 5-10k in base salary increases per year?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know the exact MSP pay scale? Those old "infirmation" links aren't working for me.

I think it's like 110,000 and then maybe 5-10k bonuses, and 5-10k in base salary increases per year?

Salary starts at 110k, 115k, or 120k, depending on the firm. Base salary increases vary from firm to firm but none are close to being proportional to the increases in major markets.

I've heard that at my firm, you can count on your bonus being roughly $50/hour for hours over required billables.

[Jchance]

^ This. Also, IP associates start at 15-25k higher than normal associates.

[nothingtosee]

^ This. Also, IP associates start at 15-25k higher than normal associates.

Is there any intra-office bitterness about that, or do the non-IP people know that's just the way it is

[Anonymous User]

$1625 a month? That's insane, I rent a one bedroom 5 min away from downtown mpls. that rents for $825 a month.

dude pm me the name of your building if you don't mind. i have a studio right next to the downtown target that's $900/month, i wouldn't mind switching. unless by 5 mins from downtown you mean like dinkytown, northeast, uptown, or somewhere that's similarly not downtown.

Ditto, looking for housing too, thanks man

Disagree. Currently living in a non-downtown-but-still-within-the-"city" area and paying north of $1600 for a one bedroom + den. It's on the "nicer" side but very difficult to justify those prices in any midwestern city outside Chicago no matter how nice. Twin-Cities COL shouldn't be underestimated.

[MNbound]

$1625 a month? That's insane, I rent a one bedroom 5 min away from downtown mpls. that rents for $825 a month.

dude pm me the name of your building if you don't mind. i have a studio right next to the downtown target that's $900/month, i wouldn't mind switching. unless by 5 mins from downtown you mean like dinkytown, northeast, uptown, or somewhere that's similarly not downtown.

Ditto, looking for housing too, thanks man

Disagree. Currently living in a non-downtown-but-still-within-the-"city" area and paying north of $1600 for a one bedroom + den. It's on the "nicer" side but very difficult to justify those prices in any midwestern city outside Chicago no matter how nice. Twin-Cities COL shouldn't be underestimated.

I think you're just looking in the wrong places or going for apartments that are super nice. Here's a bunch that are way less than that.

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/ ... 37655.html

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/ ... 08612.html

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/ ... 31493.html

[UVAIce]

I think the idea that Minneapolis is "cheap" only works when you compare it to DC, NYC, LA, etc. But so is just about every other metro area in the United States. There are some parts of the metro area that are affordable (not Edina, Eden Prairie, etc.), but no more so than other comparable metro areas. And the nice parts of town are EXPENSIVE. And some of the areas that keep the metro area cheap are cheap for a reason. It's the Saint Paul suburbs that are just too far away to make a commute to Minneapolis easy. It's communities like North Minneapolis Brooklyn Center, or Brooklyn Park where most young associates are not going to want to live. I do, however, think the Twin Cities are the best small metro area in the United States. It hurts sometimes not to be going to the Twin Cities, but it doesn't make sense for me career wise.

But there are downsides. I'm married and the major reasons we didn't go back were: compensation, weather, and the lack of other nearby metro areas. You are not going to be taking a jaunt to the coast or to some other cool city on the weekend, unless you're buying plane tickets. And on the compensation front, look at the small bonuses and pay raises the big firms in the Twin Cities. the firm I worked for as a 1L was giving $2,500 raises a year and zero bonuses for the majority of associates. I'm not going to be practicing in a "major market" and my 1st year associate pay is more than a 7th year associate in the Twin Cities at Faegre or Dorsey and the annual pay raises are larger. And the cost of living where I am at is LESS than the Twin Cities.

Personally I feel that the big firms in the Twin Cities know that they don't have a lot of competition for the top folks going to Minnesota or the other regional schools.

[UVAIce]

$1625 a month? That's insane, I rent a one bedroom 5 min away from downtown mpls. that rents for $825 a month.

dude pm me the name of your building if you don't mind. i have a studio right next to the downtown target that's $900/month, i wouldn't mind switching. unless by 5 mins from downtown you mean like dinkytown, northeast, uptown, or somewhere that's similarly not downtown.

Ditto, looking for housing too, thanks man

Disagree. Currently living in a non-downtown-but-still-within-the-"city" area and paying north of $1600 for a one bedroom + den. It's on the "nicer" side but very difficult to justify those prices in any midwestern city outside Chicago no matter how nice. Twin-Cities COL shouldn't be underestimated.

I think you're just looking in the wrong places or going for apartments that are super nice. Here's a bunch that are way less than that.

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/ ... 37655.html

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/ ... 08612.html

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/ ... 31493.html

I would watch out for that first apartment. I've been in a lot of buildings like that during undergrad and there were always problems.

The other two seem fine, but you're paying close to a grand a month for ~500 square feet and nothing special. In my opinion that isn't a cheap, just better deals in the Twin Cities. And, of course, cheaper than Manhattan.

[Anonymous User]

Surely someone has something good to say about working in Minneapolis?

[bruinfan10]

Surely someone has something good to say about working in Minneapolis?

Minneapolis is a great city! Cost of living is cheap! The couple months out of the year where it's warm are *phenomenal.* And I bet there are some solid mid-law firms tucked away somewhere that require hours from you that fairly accord with the low salary. But good luck breaking into them unless your dad works there; outside of the "big" firms in the TCs, hiring can be parochial as hell up in here.

The "big" firms here work you hours (and make 24/7 demands on your time) that very nearly match real biglaw firms, but at a comparatively outrageous pittance of a salary. I'm not even talking starting salary dude--the bonuses are a god damn laughable insult and the salary progression is so minimal it's borderline nonexistent. And, the cherry on top, which I learned recently, is that the salary scales you can sometimes find online are misleading because many firms group associates into "bands" of experience (i.e. 1-3 years, 3-5 years, etc--like what a government office does), so you might not even get that miserable salary step increase every year.

If you can get a real biglaw job, working in MN is a bloodbath from an opportunity cost standpoint, but hey, it's still a six fig salary if you're a UMN grad who can't land a market-paying firm, and it's a winning lotterly ticket if you're a Hamline, UST, or William Mitchell grad. Like I said, Minneapolis is a nice city! If the firms either paid more to offeset the opportunity cost of giving up real biglaw or demanded a little less of you in accordance with the below market salary, I would forget about the cold and set up here tomorrow. Bottom line is that these firms are losing top talent because of their absurd compensation model, and they don't care.

[Anonymous User]

3. If you must come to the Twin Cities, look to go in-house directly without a stopover in a local firm. Unlike in other markets where you have to take a pay cut or sacrifice sophistication to move in house, there are a lot of corporations here with large in-house law departments where you can get very sophisticated work and a great quality of life while making more than you would as an associate at one of the large local law firms. In the past, you may have needed a stopover at a local firm to build connections, but that is certainly no longer the case and might even hurt your prospects of making an in-house move.

I don't know if you are still on this thread or not, but I was wondering how hard it would be to get a decent in-house job (140k) with a Twin Cities company coming from a V10 firm in Chicago. I'm originally from Minnesota, but came to UChicago. All of my family is from Minnesota, and I did undergrad there. Around 5 years of experience as an associate. Will it be tough without a ton of connections?

[Anonymous User]

A good friend of mine is a junior associate at FBD in their Indy office, FWIW. She seems to like the firm itself but last I heard she was on pace to bill around 2300 for the year, so there's that.

[Anonymous User]

I live and practice in the Midwest. I went to law school in the Midwest. I have friends at pretty much all of the biggest law firms in the Midwest, and they generally have been working at their firms for 3-6 years.

Faegre would be the absolute dead last place I would choose to work out of all of them, just edging out Jones Day. As a matter of fact, it would be near the bottom of the list of places I would want to work in the entire legal profession. Hell, I would maybe rather prosecute the misdemeanor docket in some rural county for < $50k per year.

Much of it has already been discussed, just tossing in an extra opinion. As has been stated, more or less: You work. It's boring. You don't get paid much. It's not interesting. Minneapolis is a good city, but it's not as cheap as you might think and it's cold and windy for five months of the year. This isn't shaping up to be a very good recruiting pitch.