Let's compare top-flight Plaintiffs' firms with biglaw lit Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm a biglaw litigator thinking about applying to some top plaintiffs' law firms in the area. Does anyone have advice on what to expect, what the biggest differences are, and what the biggest similarities are? I'll list my understandings, so please correct me or add information if you can.

In biglaw litigation, you work on a small number of cases at a time -- from one to five. You cross all your t's and dot all of your i's; you review each and every document you produce to the other side, and you painstakingly prepare for depositions. You bill your time down to the six-minute increment, regularly converse with your client to discuss the case and strategy, and junior attorneys generally do little substantive work compared to the senior people. You generally don't get locked into a particular practice area for a few years.

At respectable plaintiffs' firms like Lieff Cabraser, Cohen Milstein, Hagens Berman, Robins Geller, or motley rice, you work on a large number of cases -- maybe ranging from 10 to 50. You take more of a "file first, ask questions later" approach, play a numbers game, and don't dedicate too much time to the small issues. You try to keep the other side guessing, but don't have the time to read every document. You rarely talk to your clients, and do so more to educate them than to garner strategy insights. Billing is loose and less important. Junior attorneys handle more of the cases and the senior guys come in for trial and settlement talks. At most plaintiffs' firms, you are locked into a practice group pretty quickly.

I'm guessing you work a lot of hours at both, and whether you work weekends and feel like your hair is on fire all the time depends on whether the people you work for are, or are not, assholes. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Plaintiffs' lawyers likely feel they are doing "good," whereas biglaw lawyers might just think they are doing their job. Biglaw pays bigger base salaries and is generally higher-paying, but plaintiffs' side offers the opportunity to strike it big. Getting cases as a biglaw litigator is an "old boys' club," whereas getting cases as a plaintiffs' lawyer involves more pounding the pavement.

What say you? I'd love to get more info on this before I think about taking the plunge.

[20141023]

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[Yukos]

Since D&L only does one type of plaintiff-side work and it's an area that basically no other p-side firm does, I don't think they're representative.

[20141023]

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[run26.2]

It sounds like somebody who regularly reads TLS and ATL wrote their website promotional material.

[Anonymous User]

It sounds like somebody who regularly reads TLS and ATL wrote their website promotional material.

are you talking to me (OP) or the guy inexplicably posting about a boutique patent firm?

I work in biglaw litigation right now and have a number of friends at plaintiffs' firms, so I think my information is OK. I'd like to hear more from people who actually work at plaintiffs' firms, though.

[Anonymous User]

You'd still be tracking your time down to the .1s at LCHB.

[justinp]

Since D&L only does one type of plaintiff-side work and it's an area that basically no other p-side firm does, I don't think they're representative.

I'm confused as to what you mean here-- there are tons of plaintiff's side firms that specialize in, or at least do lots of, patent litigation. McKool, Susman, Desmarais just off the top of my head. Am I missing something about this Dovel place?

[juzam_djinn]

Since D&L only does one type of plaintiff-side work and it's an area that basically no other p-side firm does, I don't think they're representative.

I'm confused as to what you mean here-- there are tons of plaintiff's side firms that specialize in, or at least do lots of, patent litigation. McKool, Susman, Desmarais just off the top of my head. Am I missing something about this Dovel place?

look at the # of attorneys they have...

they're also a very young firm, and there's no real indication that their levels of bonuses will continue to be paid out in the long run

it's pretty easy to brag about how high a starting salary/bonus their associates get when there are ~3-4 associates firm-wide...

[justinp]

Since D&L only does one type of plaintiff-side work and it's an area that basically no other p-side firm does, I don't think they're representative.

I'm confused as to what you mean here-- there are tons of plaintiff's side firms that specialize in, or at least do lots of, patent litigation. McKool, Susman, Desmarais just off the top of my head. Am I missing something about this Dovel place?

look at the # of attorneys they have...

they're also a very young firm, and there's no real indication that their levels of bonuses will continue to be paid out in the long run

it's pretty easy to brag about how high a starting salary/bonus their associates get when there are ~3-4 associates firm-wide...

oh definitely agree that it's not a representative firm generally speaking-- just don't think the fact that they run big contingency-fee patent cases is the reason they're unrepresentative.

[84651846190]

All attorneys - including young associates - run their own cases. This allows all attorneys to take ownership of and participate in the long-term strategy of their own case, develop relationships with clients, and marshal cases from filing through trial. This model also gives associates control over their lives and schedules. Our associates don’t work less than associates at big law firms, but they can predict their workload and control when and how they will handle it. Associates won't ever be subject to someone higher up who assigns work on Friday afternoons or sets arbitrary deadlines.

Salaries. Our base salaries start at $187,500 for first years and are among the highest in the country. The $160K-Plus Club: A Boutique With Biglaw-Beating Bonuses.
Bonuses. Our bonuses have historically exceeded those of any other firm, often by multiples. Bonuses are based on individual and firm results and class standing - not hours billed. Historically, bonuses have ranged from $50,000 to $700,000. We also pay judicial clerkship bonuses that are top of the market.

they hire like one person every three years, so good luck getting a job there

you've got a better chance in the NBA draft

[20141023]

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[run26.2]

It sounds like somebody who regularly reads TLS and ATL wrote their website promotional material.

are you talking to me (OP) or the guy inexplicably posting about a boutique patent firm?

I work in biglaw litigation right now and have a number of friends at plaintiffs' firms, so I think my information is OK. I'd like to hear more from people who actually work at plaintiffs' firms, though.

Talking to the other person. I'd like to hear more from people at these firms, as well. I have several friends at boutiques that are mainly plaintiff-side, but none at the firms you mentioned.

[Yukos]

Since D&L only does one type of plaintiff-side work and it's an area that basically no other p-side firm does, I don't think they're representative.

I'm confused as to what you mean here-- there are tons of plaintiff's side firms that specialize in, or at least do lots of, patent litigation. McKool, Susman, Desmarais just off the top of my head. Am I missing something about this Dovel place?

look at the # of attorneys they have...

they're also a very young firm, and there's no real indication that their levels of bonuses will continue to be paid out in the long run

it's pretty easy to brag about how high a starting salary/bonus their associates get when there are ~3-4 associates firm-wide...

oh definitely agree that it's not a representative firm generally speaking-- just don't think the fact that they run big contingency-fee patent cases is the reason they're unrepresentative.

Yeah you're probably right, and I'm no p-side expert. But when I think p-side work I don't think Susman (or, for that matter, Quinn) but more Lieff and Altshuler and other firms that do what seem to be the plaintiff mainstay practice areas--employment, civil rights, environmental, antitrust. In any case, for all the reasons other people have mentioned, D&L is clearly not representative.

[anon168]

Having been on both sides of the fence I can tell you that for the most part, especially for an associate, it's not that different.

At the margins there my be differences but it's also unfair to lump all defense firms and all plaintiffs firms into two homogeneous groups. Clearly, each firm - be it defense or plaintiff - is unique and its business model, while similar to its peers, will never be identical to all of its contemporaries.

Unless you have a specific comparison or a question about a particular firm, this just sounds like a 10,000 feet bird's eye view of the practice of law.

[Anonymous User]

Having been on both sides of the fence I can tell you that for the most part, especially for an associate, it's not that different.

At the margins there my be differences but it's also unfair to lump all defense firms and all plaintiffs firms into two homogeneous groups. Clearly, each firm - be it defense or plaintiff - is unique and its business model, while similar to its peers, will never be identical to all of its contemporaries.

Unless you have a specific comparison or a question about a particular firm, this just sounds like a 10,000 feet bird's eye view of the practice of law.

Here are some specific questions for you, if you can answer:
-how does pay at the firms mentioned in the OP compare to biglaw associate lockstep salary?
-in your experience, are associates involved with interviewing potential clients at the firms mentioned in the OP?
-are you freer to speak your mind / go to protests / have an eccentric personal life, at the firms mentioned in the OP, as compared with biglaw?

[Anonymous User]

I interviewed at Lieff Cabraser. They told me first years make 100k, and the salary increments go up $5k a year until fifth year. Max bonus for year 1-5 was 25k. In year 6, your salary is 160 if you are promoted to non-equity partner (which they indicated was a high-probability thing), and your bonus is between 60 and 100k. Three years after that, you’re up for equity partner. That’s very difficult to get. If you get it, you buy an island.

[XxSpyKEx]

I interviewed at Lieff Cabraser. They told me first years make 100k, and the salary increments go up $5k a year until fifth year. Max bonus for year 1-5 was 25k. In year 6, your salary is 160 if you are promoted to non-equity partner (which they indicated was a high-probability thing), and your bonus is between 60 and 100k. Three years after that, you’re up for equity partner. That’s very difficult to get. If you get it, you buy an island.

I've seen posting for some of the other top-flight plaintiff's firms, and most seem to pay similar salaries to Lieff Cabraser. If you think about it, though, that's honestly pretty terrible compensation (except for the equity partners). If you have the credentials to work at one of these plaintiff's firms, you could probably get fed gvt. Fed government in major markets pays around the same amount by year 3, and most agencies aren't going to require you to work anywhere near the hours a plaintiff's firm will, and that's not even getting into the great benefits (e.g. tons of vacation time each year, insanely good long-term job security, etc.) and perks (e.g. some agencies give you more vacation time if you work more than 40 hours in a week, some agencies will allow you to work only 4 days a week, etc.) at fed gvt.

[Anonymous User]

Woah. That is a LOT less money. That... kind of changes my viewpoint.

[Anonymous User]

I interviewed at Lieff Cabraser. They told me first years make 100k, and the salary increments go up $5k a year until fifth year. Max bonus for year 1-5 was 25k. In year 6, your salary is 160 if you are promoted to non-equity partner (which they indicated was a high-probability thing), and your bonus is between 60 and 100k. Three years after that, you’re up for equity partner. That’s very difficult to get. If you get it, you buy an island.

I've seen posting for some of the other top-flight plaintiff's firms, and most seem to pay similar salaries to Lieff Cabraser. If you think about it, though, that's honestly pretty terrible compensation (except for the equity partners). If you have the credentials to work at one of these plaintiff's firms, you could probably get fed gvt. Fed government in major markets pays around the same amount by year 3, and most agencies aren't going to require you to work anywhere near the hours a plaintiff's firm will, and that's not even getting into the great benefits (e.g. tons of vacation time each year, insanely good long-term job security, etc.) and perks (e.g. some agencies give you more vacation time if you work more than 40 hours in a week, some agencies will allow you to work only 4 days a week, etc.) at fed gvt.

Ya. TBF, some of the other posting may have been by me, and Lieff is the only firm that ever broke down their pay scale for me, so I have no Idea what, e.g., BLBG or Robbins Geller pay. I'm not at Lieff, and the thought of paying rent in SF on a Lieff Cabraser salary is at least 50% of why I didn't end up there. On the other hand, partners at big v25 firms told me they thought the choice between them and Lieff was a "tough call" because all the Lieff associates they used to go against when they were starting out are now retired and rolling in a bathtub of gold coins, while they're still lowly v25 partners.

[XxSpyKEx]

I interviewed at Lieff Cabraser. They told me first years make 100k, and the salary increments go up $5k a year until fifth year. Max bonus for year 1-5 was 25k. In year 6, your salary is 160 if you are promoted to non-equity partner (which they indicated was a high-probability thing), and your bonus is between 60 and 100k. Three years after that, you’re up for equity partner. That’s very difficult to get. If you get it, you buy an island.

I've seen posting for some of the other top-flight plaintiff's firms, and most seem to pay similar salaries to Lieff Cabraser. If you think about it, though, that's honestly pretty terrible compensation (except for the equity partners). If you have the credentials to work at one of these plaintiff's firms, you could probably get fed gvt. Fed government in major markets pays around the same amount by year 3, and most agencies aren't going to require you to work anywhere near the hours a plaintiff's firm will, and that's not even getting into the great benefits (e.g. tons of vacation time each year, insanely good long-term job security, etc.) and perks (e.g. some agencies give you more vacation time if you work more than 40 hours in a week, some agencies will allow you to work only 4 days a week, etc.) at fed gvt.

Ya. TBF, some of the other posting may have been by me, and Lieff is the only firm that ever broke down their pay scale for me, so I have no Idea what, e.g., BLBG or Robbins Geller pay. I'm not at Lieff, and the thought of paying rent in SF on a Lieff Cabraser salary is at least 50% of why I didn't end up there. On the other hand, partners at big v25 firms told me they thought the choice between them and Lieff was a "tough call" because all the Lieff associates they used to go against when they were starting out are now retired and rolling in a bathtub of gold coins, while they're still lowly v25 partners.

Oh, I meant job postings (not TLS posts). Many of the top flight plaintiff's firms will sometimes post their salaries on job postings.

[anon168]

Here are some specific questions for you, if you can answer:
-how does pay at the firms mentioned in the OP compare to biglaw associate lockstep salary?

Lower. About 30% (on average) lower. Bonuses are tough to say. More variability in Plaintiff's shops than at biglaw.

-in your experience, are associates involved with interviewing potential clients at the firms mentioned in the OP?

No. Most plaintiff's firms have two types of clients. Institutional clients and stragglers off the street. With the former, it's the client that's interviewing the firm (i.e., it's usually a pitch or beauty contest by the firm). With the latter, most lawyers are not involved in the intake process. There are depts. that handle that sort of thing. At least there should be.

-are you freer to speak your mind / go to protests / have an eccentric personal life, at the firms mentioned in the OP, as compared with biglaw?

No idea what you are talking about. Lots of biglaw type firms as well as plaintiff shops are rather eccentric and liberal-leaning, and lots are buttoned-up and conservative.

[Lexaholik]

I'm an associate at one of the more highly respected plaintiffs' firms. (More similar to Lieff than Quinn) I used to work in biglaw so I like think I have some perspective.

Unlike biglaw, it's pretty tough to generalize across plaintiffs' firms--even the reputable ones. Fortunes are always rising or falling. And even if they weren't, how each firm is structured (associate heavy? partner heavy?) has implications for many aspects of the practice. And a lot of firm culture is driven by the one (or two) individual lawyer who dominates the firm.

Having said that here are some anecdotes:

Compensation - Your guaranteed comp is lower on the plaintiff's side, but your bonus potential is higher. When I was being recruited, a partner told me point blank what her base comp was. (It was not much more than the base I was eventually offered.) Comp is driven by bonus. When the firm does well, it tends to spread the wealth to compensate for low base. Also-my benefits are much worse here than in biglaw (which in turn was a lot worse than benis at the Fortune 500 I used to work at). Having said that, this is a business and you will be paid only as much as the firm needs to. Just because they hit a $100MM+ settlement does not mean they're necessarily going to give an associate a $500k bonus.

Clients - I'm in a consumer class action practice group, so our clients are individuals. (We have other practice areas that have institutional clients but I"m not too involved with them.) I still haven't figured out where these individuals come from, although I do know we get a lot of cases passed up to us from smaller firms. For example, a small firm might land a potentially enormous consumer class action that they can't handle. They will "sell" the case to us, and we'll handle.

Eccentric Life - In theory yes, we can have a more eccentric personal life. But if you're an associate, you are an employee of the business, and generally have to adhere to neutral behavior. If you're an equity partner who is a force to be reckoned with, then I would say you can do whatever the hell you please as long as you continue to get big verdicts and settlements.

Credentials - Most associates on the P side do not have biglaw type resumes. But you will see many biglaw-type resumes on the P side. Remember that maximizing income for the long term sometimes involves taking short-term paycuts. (This is why I took a roughly 50% pay cut to switch over) To those who focus too heavily on base salary, this seems incomprehensible.

[Anonymous User]

I'm an associate at one of the more highly respected plaintiffs' firms. (More similar to Lieff than Quinn) I used to work in biglaw so I like think I have some perspective.

Unlike biglaw, it's pretty tough to generalize across plaintiffs' firms--even the reputable ones. Fortunes are always rising or falling. And even if they weren't, how each firm is structured (associate heavy? partner heavy?) has implications for many aspects of the practice. And a lot of firm culture is driven by the one (or two) individual lawyer who dominates the firm.

Having said that here are some anecdotes:

Compensation - Your guaranteed comp is lower on the plaintiff's side, but your bonus potential is higher. When I was being recruited, a partner told me point blank what her base comp was. (It was not much more than the base I was eventually offered.) Comp is driven by bonus. When the firm does well, it tends to spread the wealth to compensate for low base. Also-my benefits are much worse here than in biglaw (which in turn was a lot worse than benis at the Fortune 500 I used to work at). Having said that, this is a business and you will be paid only as much as the firm needs to. Just because they hit a $100MM+ settlement does not mean they're necessarily going to give an associate a $500k bonus.

Clients - I'm in a consumer class action practice group, so our clients are individuals. (We have other practice areas that have institutional clients but I"m not too involved with them.) I still haven't figured out where these individuals come from, although I do know we get a lot of cases passed up to us from smaller firms. For example, a small firm might land a potentially enormous consumer class action that they can't handle. They will "sell" the case to us, and we'll handle.

Eccentric Life - In theory yes, we can have a more eccentric personal life. But if you're an associate, you are an employee of the business, and generally have to adhere to neutral behavior. If you're an equity partner who is a force to be reckoned with, then I would say you can do whatever the hell you please as long as you continue to get big verdicts and settlements.

Credentials - Most associates on the P side do not have biglaw type resumes. But you will see many biglaw-type resumes on the P side. Remember that maximizing income for the long term sometimes involves taking short-term paycuts. (This is why I took a roughly 50% pay cut to switch over) To those who focus too heavily on base salary, this seems incomprehensible.

you got pm

[Anonymous User]

I'm an associate at one of the more highly respected plaintiffs' firms. (More similar to Lieff than Quinn) I used to work in biglaw so I like think I have some perspective.

Unlike biglaw, it's pretty tough to generalize across plaintiffs' firms--even the reputable ones. Fortunes are always rising or falling. And even if they weren't, how each firm is structured (associate heavy? partner heavy?) has implications for many aspects of the practice. And a lot of firm culture is driven by the one (or two) individual lawyer who dominates the firm.

Having said that here are some anecdotes:

Compensation - Your guaranteed comp is lower on the plaintiff's side, but your bonus potential is higher. When I was being recruited, a partner told me point blank what her base comp was. (It was not much more than the base I was eventually offered.) Comp is driven by bonus. When the firm does well, it tends to spread the wealth to compensate for low base. Also-my benefits are much worse here than in biglaw (which in turn was a lot worse than benis at the Fortune 500 I used to work at). Having said that, this is a business and you will be paid only as much as the firm needs to. Just because they hit a $100MM+ settlement does not mean they're necessarily going to give an associate a $500k bonus.

Clients - I'm in a consumer class action practice group, so our clients are individuals. (We have other practice areas that have institutional clients but I"m not too involved with them.) I still haven't figured out where these individuals come from, although I do know we get a lot of cases passed up to us from smaller firms. For example, a small firm might land a potentially enormous consumer class action that they can't handle. They will "sell" the case to us, and we'll handle.

Eccentric Life - In theory yes, we can have a more eccentric personal life. But if you're an associate, you are an employee of the business, and generally have to adhere to neutral behavior. If you're an equity partner who is a force to be reckoned with, then I would say you can do whatever the hell you please as long as you continue to get big verdicts and settlements.

Credentials - Most associates on the P side do not have biglaw type resumes. But you will see many biglaw-type resumes on the P side. Remember that maximizing income for the long term sometimes involves taking short-term paycuts. (This is why I took a roughly 50% pay cut to switch over) To those who focus too heavily on base salary, this seems incomprehensible.

How do overall hours compare? Say, compare doing antitrust at Lieff Cabraser / Cohen Milstein to doing antitrust at Cleary or Latham. I'm a current federal clerk thinking about what to do when I start practicing. In these threads, I see some talk comparing plaintiff firms to biglaw wrt to salary / responsibility level of work assignments / feeling of autonomy and control. But what if I want to have hours in the day to have friends or watch Netflix?