Associates: Compare Your Job to Your Time with TFA Forum

[Anonymous User]

Even if you spend 58 hours a week (which I doubt) that is objectively longer than most teachers work. You are as much of an outlier as those who bill 3k hours in big law.

So I'm an outlier among teachers but I don't believe I'm an outlier for 1st year TFAs. Which is what we are talking about here.

[Anonymous User]

I don't know if yall are assuming teaching middle school math/english is harder than teaching freshman level intro to computer science but I guess maybe having only done the latter doesn't qualify me to speak on the topic? Unclear if just because it wasn't TFA means I don't know what I'm talking about.

But for me the vast majority of my prep for the semester course was done in the 3 weeks before school was in session. I made sure to get half of the semester concretely laid out before the semester started. So that's 3 weeks of working just 9-5 at my own pace. Then classes start and each day before teaching (didn't teach every day because this is freshman in college) I prep for an hour. I spend 1.5hrs in class. 1/2 hour after class on questions. That's 3x a week. The other two days I do 9-5 work on getting the rest of the semester solidified. Then i have one day where i have 3hours of office time reserved for students. When I have a lab that I need to grade (one lab per week) that adds about 20hours into the week.
so...

(1 + 2.5 + .5) x3days = 9hours prepping to lecture and in-class time
8*2days = 16 hours of prepping material
3*1day = 3 hours of office hours
====
28hours per week + 20hrs grading labs = 48hours per week
plus the three weeks of 9-5 prep before the semester started.

I was not a tenured prof and had no research obligation. I was hired by the department to teach an intro level course.

If I had any week as an associate where I only did 48 hours of work I'd be stressed that I'm going to get chewed out for not being on track with billables.
But no, this isn't TFA experience.

I'm discounting this experience because I'm guessing no one ever threw a desk at you. I have no doubt this was a challenging experience but college is just a whole new game because no one is forcing someone to be there against their will.

Neat. I wasn't really trying to compete for who has it worse. I was just offering an example since nobody, at that point, had broken any TFA time out like that.

I'm sorry about your /deskface

You asked why teaching middle school english/math was harder than what you did. I didn't mean (and still don't) to get in a dick measuring competition (The which prison is the worst comment is really quite perfect in my mind) I just wanted to explain why I think teaching college is fundamentally different than teaching inner city middle school.

[Paul Campos]

You know what's really hard compared to being a big firm associate? Being a law professor (at least according to various posters at Prawfs, the Faculty Lounge etc).

On a completely unrelated note, I asked a senior colleague recently to estimate the median number of hours tenure-track faculty spent in the building per week, assuming a 48-week work year. He said twelve.

[soj]

.

[chem!]

Campos strikes again. Nice.

[Mal Reynolds]

I love PC.

[patogordo]

Paulo, will you accept service via TLS PM for defamation complaints? Asking for a friend.

[Mal Reynolds]

Paulo, will you accept service via TLS PM for defamation complaints? Asking for a friend.

Don't call him Paulo. Threatening for a friend.

[Desert Fox]

If you are the kind of person who takes 50% longer to do work that fucking education majors do, you are going to get brutally pwned by biglaw.

[smallfirmassociate]

All of which I believe I acknowledged in my original post. The days off are huge and something teachers never bring up.

prty mch. waz jus doing maths.

ETA: so the billable to hours worked breaks down pretty quickly in the anology but at least 90% of that 1516 has to be "billable" under any definition.

I can't speak to that definitively, but I know that browsing the internet or reading a book at your desk while your students work on worksheets or read to themselves or take quizzes and tests is not "'billable' under any definition." I suppose it's possible you never, ever have any passive instruction time, but that seems unlikely.

[bjsesq]

You know what's really hard compared to being a big firm associate? Being a law professor (at least according to various posters at Prawfs, the Faculty Lounge etc).

On a completely unrelated note, I asked a senior colleague recently to estimate the median number of hours tenure-track faculty spent in the building per week, assuming a 48-week work year. He said twelve.

You are a fantastic fucking part of this site, brother.

[Anonymous User]

All of which I believe I acknowledged in my original post. The days off are huge and something teachers never bring up.

prty mch. waz jus doing maths.

ETA: so the billable to hours worked breaks down pretty quickly in the anology but at least 90% of that 1516 has to be "billable" under any definition.

I can't speak to that definitively, but I know that browsing the internet or reading a book at your desk while your students work on worksheets or read to themselves or take quizzes and tests is not "'billable' under any definition." I suppose it's possible you never, ever have any passive instruction time, but that seems unlikely.

Just so dependent on so many factors re school district; school; subject but at my school (again crazy pay for performance district) you were expected to be doing direct instruction or actively monitoring students work (ie walking around and checking) and there we random spot checks roughly twice a week. Reading at your desk would get you fired on the spot (multiple people were fired on the spot any given year). Test days were an exception. That said, I recognize this experience is highly unique. I also recognize that this has probably gone about as far as it will go and think I have made my point.

[Anonymous User]

I can't speak to that definitively, but I know that browsing the internet or reading a book at your desk while your students work on worksheets or read to themselves or take quizzes and tests is not "'billable' under any definition." I suppose it's possible you never, ever have any passive instruction time, but that seems unlikely.

Also, honest question, do people in BL really not bill any internet time? The occasional gchat with the wife that last 30 seconds? Checking twitter on your phone for a minute? Not asking what is ethical or what you should do, but does that really not happen?

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

You know what's really hard compared to being a big firm associate? Being a law professor (at least according to various posters at Prawfs, the Faculty Lounge etc).

On a completely unrelated note, I asked a senior colleague recently to estimate the median number of hours tenure-track faculty spent in the building per week, assuming a 48-week work year. He said twelve.

Yeah, so the discussion of whether the difficulty of a position is necessarily associated with the difficulty of obtaining the position or the salary of the position is pretty much closed.

The discussion of why the hell law school has to cost fifty thousand dollars remains open, but for another day.

[chem!]

Just so dependent on so many factors re school district; school; subject but at my school (again crazy pay for performance district) you were expected to be doing direct instruction or actively monitoring students work (ie walking around and checking) and there we random spot checks roughly twice a week. Reading at your desk would get you fired on the spot (multiple people were fired on the spot any given year). Test days were an exception. That said, I recognize this experience is highly unique. I also recognize that this has probably gone about as far as it will go and think I have made my point.

This is not far off from how things are in my school district. I don't think people got fired on the spot, but they definitely had one-on-one time with administration.

That's probably all I'm going to say in this thread.

[A. Nony Mouse]

You know what's really hard compared to being a big firm associate? Being a law professor (at least according to various posters at Prawfs, the Faculty Lounge etc).

On a completely unrelated note, I asked a senior colleague recently to estimate the median number of hours tenure-track faculty spent in the building per week, assuming a 48-week work year. He said twelve.

To be completely fair, though, one of the whole reasons to be an academic is that you're not stuck in an office/building, but that you can go work anywhere you like. (Not saying it's a lot of work, but it's not limited to the hours they're in the building.)

[bjsesq]

You know what's really hard compared to being a big firm associate? Being a law professor (at least according to various posters at Prawfs, the Faculty Lounge etc).

On a completely unrelated note, I asked a senior colleague recently to estimate the median number of hours tenure-track faculty spent in the building per week, assuming a 48-week work year. He said twelve.

To be completely fair, though, one of the whole reasons to be an academic is that you're not stuck in an office/building, but that you can go work anywhere you like. (Not saying it's a lot of work, but it's not limited to the hours they're in the building.)

Thanks for telling Paul what being a prof is like.

[A. Nony Mouse]

You know what's really hard compared to being a big firm associate? Being a law professor (at least according to various posters at Prawfs, the Faculty Lounge etc).

On a completely unrelated note, I asked a senior colleague recently to estimate the median number of hours tenure-track faculty spent in the building per week, assuming a 48-week work year. He said twelve.

To be completely fair, though, one of the whole reasons to be an academic is that you're not stuck in an office/building, but that you can go work anywhere you like. (Not saying it's a lot of work, but it's not limited to the hours they're in the building.)

Thanks for telling Paul what being a prof is like.

I mean, of course he knows that, but not everyone else does, and there are plenty of ways to knock professors without being misleading.

[bjsesq]

You know what's really hard compared to being a big firm associate? Being a law professor (at least according to various posters at Prawfs, the Faculty Lounge etc).

On a completely unrelated note, I asked a senior colleague recently to estimate the median number of hours tenure-track faculty spent in the building per week, assuming a 48-week work year. He said twelve.

To be completely fair, though, one of the whole reasons to be an academic is that you're not stuck in an office/building, but that you can go work anywhere you like. (Not saying it's a lot of work, but it's not limited to the hours they're in the building.)

Thanks for telling Paul what being a prof is like.

I mean, I know he knows that, but not everyone else does, and there are plenty of ways to knock professors without being misleading.

It's good someone brave is willing to stand up for those law profs, poor doves.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm not standing up for anyone, I just find potshots unconvincing.

[bjsesq]

I'm not standing up for anyone, I just find potshots unconvincing.

THEY WERE FUNNY AND YOU SHOULD SHOW SOME APPRECIATION

[smallfirmassociate]

I can't speak to that definitively, but I know that browsing the internet or reading a book at your desk while your students work on worksheets or read to themselves or take quizzes and tests is not "'billable' under any definition." I suppose it's possible you never, ever have any passive instruction time, but that seems unlikely.

Also, honest question, do people in BL really not bill any internet time? The occasional gchat with the wife that last 30 seconds? Checking twitter on your phone for a minute? Not asking what is ethical or what you should do, but does that really not happen?

The six-minute billing increment is not precise enough to indicate whether it happens. But yeah, it happens. Billing is an inexact science despite the overwrought attempts of our ilk through the years to adorn it with the trappings of pristine, raw data.

Of course, my theory is that all legal work is, at heart, done for a flat-fee plus or minus some acceptable deviation. When it comes to client retention, reputation, even taking on new clients, the bottom line (total bill) is what matters. It will be inquired about, it will be noticed, and it will be disputed. In other words, if a teacher decides to assign some reading tomorrow because she's sick and tired, and she relaxes during that time, then she just gained that time to herself without having to repay it (or repay it all, at least) later. If a lawyer does that, it just kicks the can down the road.

[chem!]

smallfirmassociate - have you ever taught? I'm only asking b/c you are describing the habits of a shitty teacher. Maybe in a state with tenure, that shit would fly. Maybe in a non-secondary science classroom, that shit would fly. But it would never fly in my state, my subject, or my old school.

[Anonymous User]

smallfirmassociate - have you ever taught? I'm only asking b/c you are describing the habits of a shitty teacher. Maybe in a state with tenure, that shit would fly. Maybe in a non-secondary science classroom, that shit would fly. But it would never fly in my state, my subject, or my old school.

I think it really really varies. It would absolutely fly in the district were I went to school. It would not in the district where I taught.

[chem!]

smallfirmassociate - have you ever taught? I'm only asking b/c you are describing the habits of a shitty teacher. Maybe in a state with tenure, that shit would fly. Maybe in a non-secondary science classroom, that shit would fly. But it would never fly in my state, my subject, or my old school.

I think it really really varies. It would absolutely fly in the district were I went to school. It would not in the district where I taught.

Oh, I know. My first years as a teacher were spent in a district where shitty teaching was overly represented. I was just being slightly contentious because he just described poor teaching methods and not all teachers roll that way.