Guide: HLS '13 General EIP/OCI Advice 4 Marginal Candidates Forum

[tmbrtmbr]

-Most HLS students will do really nicely in EIP, but each year a few students do poorly… Each year there are students who are almost all Ps (and even LPs) who do amazingly, and others with mostly H’s that come close to striking out, or strike out. Some say this is a value judgment on your personality... but I think there is a lot of randomness in the process. This guide is written mainly for those who are at risk of striking out (which is basically unknowable until after midway through EIP), perhaps due to personality factors, and need help avoiding that.

-Me: 4H, 4P, bid Boston and a secondary market, both litigation and corporate, had 30+ EIP interviews, 2 callbacks from EIP process (only one of which turned into an offer); a further 5 callbacks from non-EIP process; 4 total job offers, accepted one T10, one T50 (split). In short, I did poorly at EIP, but improved over time by re-calibrating. Maybe this advice can save some people some of that pain…

I. General Principles
1. Project confidence.
2. If you are smiling, and they are smiling, you are doing very well. Laughing, even better. More than anything else, you want to be liked. Pretend you are the most outgoing person in the world, even if you aren't. If you can make all your interviewers smile consistently, you have the callback/job. The content of your answers matters far less (this is in contrast to scientific, structured interviews, such as those used by Teach for America and the US Foreign Service, where personality is mostly irrelevant; answer content is being judged).
3. Again, it is more about personality and making a personal connection than grades, competence, quality of your answers etc.
4. Why? Law firms can teach you to be a lawyer, but not how to be socially adept. Law firms are mostly of the view “I don’t want to work with a weirdo” – and being quiet, shy, un-confident, or non-conformist; e.g. not a super effusive, type A person = weirdo.
5. Practice the way you present yourself: speaking clearly, slowly if you tend to speed up, and address any weird personal ticks you have (blinking, touching hair…)
7. Pay attention to the (first) names of people you meet if you are bad with names… nothing says “moron” like speaking with 4 attorneys at a callback and remembering 0 names.

II. What to do if you screw up EIP:
1. If you aren’t seeing any callbacks by Wednesday night (some would say Thursday), you’ve probably screwed up, despite what reassuring words OCS is telling you. Try your best to diagnose your issues (maybe with OCS, better with a friend/3L) and adapt the next 2 days as best you can. Grab more (New York?) interview slots – a shotgun approach may save you.
2. As soon as EIP is over, if you have 2-3 callbacks or less, that very weekend, start mass-mailing law firms with your materials. Don’t be “too good” for secondary markets or firms outside the T30 or T50. Beat the hell out of the NALP directory to contact firms all over, and every single firm in your most preferred markets.
3. Mass mailing might mean, 50 firms or more per day: aim to send an email every 3-4 minutes. Don’t worry about the quality of your email: 80% of them won’t write back. Use a template (carefully) to send the same material to everyone (resume, transcript, writing sample, references). You can note in your email “cover letter available upon request.”
4. If firms write back asking you to fill out some kind of online data sheet, it is your judgment whether to mess with this; I never did, as in the time that took, I could email 3-5 more firms.
5. The key is that by acting immediately in early/mid August, you will still get channeled into the mainstream recruiting process. No recruiting manager will question “why is this guy/girl still on the market” and no firm will have filled all its spots, so you will still have a lot of options as to which firms will consider you. On the contrary, if you only realize in early September you screwed up (e.g. you do 2 callbacks, and both reject you), it will be too late for many plum positions, and as time rolls on into late September and early October, recruiting managers will increasingly be asking “why is he/she still on the market now?”
6. If anyone asks “why didn’t I see you interviewing on campus,” you might consider something like “the lottery didn’t work out,” or if they were undersubscribed, “schedule conflicts.” This can be embarrassing, as it shows you think of them as second best, but is not a deal killer (I got an offer from a firm I skipped on campus).
7. I would not be comfortable with less than 4-5 total callbacks… if EIP produces only 2-3, you need to mass mail to be certain you get a job. Most people enjoy at least a 50% conversion rate on callbacks, since a callback means you more or less have the job (or at least, you have met a minimal bar with regard to grades), but there is still random variation; don’t take any chances: by the time you have been rejected by 2-3 firms, you will have wasted precious moments in the recruiting season. Also, more callbacks = more choices on your end, including a possible split.

III. Interview Outline
1. I recommend that for at least your top pick firms at EIP, and certainly every firm you do a callback with, you prepare a written, individualized outline, in advance.
2. This is NOT a “collection of information I got from their website and NALP for me to memorize”
3. Your outline goal is to create a narrative- to explain how your past experience, your whole life, has all been leading to a culmination of working for firm XXX in practice area YYY in region ZZZ.
4. Of course, some components will be common from firm to firm – if you have “4 reasons I want to be a litigator,” you can use that for all your litigation oriented firms. Or “reasons I want to be in Seattle.”
5. If you are like most HLS students, and don’t care a great deal what you do, or don’t have any idea, advice differs, but I'm of the school of thought that it is bad to say “I’m not sure – I see myself as a litigator, but I’d also love to explore corporate work.” Just pick whichever area the firm is strongest in/ the firm has the most positions in, and say that this is your true calling. If you want to explore both corporate and litigation during the summer, you could do this at one firm, after you have an offer in hand.
6. Your job as a lawyer is to persuade people – if you can’t persuade them that firm XXX, practice area YYY, region ZZZ is your one true calling, they surely won’t believe you will be persuasive elsewhere.
7. In the end, it is a test of your ability to speak and argue… and be liked
8. Who are you trying to convince? The partners. At EIP, you will interview with a mix of partners and associates. At callbacks, you will usually interview with 2 partners (usually 1 is on the hiring committee), 2 associates, and have 2 people (usually associates) take you to lunch. The partners are what matters. You need to strike it out of the ballpark with partners. In other words, if you do mediocre with the partners, and great with associates, tough luck, no job. If you do great with the partners and mediocre with the associates, you’ve got a job. Whatever the partners decide, the associates aren’t going to change the partners’ minds (unless you are a truly marginal candidate). If you find it difficult to be “on” for 4 hours during a callback, remember what really counts: the partners, the partners, the partners (and, in the firm that puts associates on the hiring committee, them too). Moreover, the partners that are on the hiring committee – if you can somehow scope out who this is, you might spend extra time prepping for them.
9. Speaking of researching the people you will interview with – walking in and showing them you know their life history will creep them out. Know it, at least for callbacks, so your comments are calibrated to complement their background (both from state X, both interested in activity Y), or at least that you don’t accidentally say something offensive about their background.
10. All the questions are pat, and the answers are pat – they have heard it all before, and 20 times already today at EIP. It is a question of whether or not you can do the dance.
11. Obviously, do your general research on the firm – summer program, practices, recent big cases, etc, but this is of secondary importance. Keen insight into the firm’s structure is less valuable than (1) convincing them you are totally devoted to being at firm XXX, city YYY, practice area ZZZ (2) convincing them to like you, and that you are a good colleague, and they can show you to clients without you embarrassing everyone.

Golden rule: if you cannot use your narrative to convince yourself you want to work for the firm, you can’t convince them.

IV. Sample Interview Outline
For any “why” question, try to have 3 rationales/reasons
A. Why this firm?
i. Amazing people
ii. Free market
iii. Great training
iv. Well managed
v. Excels in practice area XXX where I want to be, because of my past experiences YYYY
B. Why this region?
i. I’m from here
ii. Lots of friends here
iii. Family here
iv. Great place to live, cost of living, etc
v. No better place to work in practice area XXX (e.g. finance NYC, antitrust DC)
C. Where else are you interviewing?
i. Either claim just 1 region, or claim 2 regions max. Not “open mind.”
D. Narrative
i. Have a story, incorporating undergrad studies, undergrad extracurriculars, work experience, HLS courses and extracurriculars, which all demonstrate various knowledge/capabilities/traits (hardworking, interest in economics, whatever), which all explain why you want to be with Firm X practice area Y region Z, and in fact have wanted this to be the outcome your whole life.
ii. You can always pad this with future intentions, e.g., “I will be taking securities litigation next semester”
iii. You can/should have a different narrative for each firm, or firm type (region, practice area focus, etc)
E. Why this practice area?
i. Litigation: Have to be commercial, think about money, variety and change, writing and research, love role of an advocate, “I’ve done trial advocacy workshop, moot court, Ames, Evidence, loved civ pro, torts, I’m in defenders, whatever”
ii. Corporate: Economics background, finance background, taking corporations, bankruptcy, efficient allocation of capital fascinates me.
F. Tell me about your past experience XXXX on your resume
i. I never really thought this question was of prime importance
ii. Whatever the experience is, make sure to explain what skills/knowledge/character traits you gained, and how they fit perfectly with the job you want
iii. It is nice to see you are passionate about what you have done.
G. Explain to me why you chose to pursue past experience XXXX on your resume? Explain to me what you learned from past experience XXXX?
i. Whatever the experience is, make sure to explain what skills/knowledge/character traits you gained, and how they fit perfectly with the job you want
ii. E.g., I learned about legal research, writing, attention to detail, initiative, whatever
H. What distinguishes our firm in your mind? Why us?
i. This is a bullshit question (to a degree): you're rarely in a position to make this judgment at EIP. Correct answer: (1) Culture and People (2) Practice area capabilities/ the work/renowned for excellence in practice XXX (3) the location
I. Why did you decide to become a lawyer?
i. (1) intellectually challenging (2) high responsibility (3) work that matters (4) constant learning (5) helping people reach business goals NOT: (1) love arguing (2) want money (3) couldn’t figure out what to do with my life
J. What have been your favorite classes?
i. You may want to align what you say are “favorites” with the firm’s work. If they are litigation oriented, cite civ pro, torts, evidence, trial advocacy, Ames, etc. If corporate, obviously corporations, bankruptcy, maybe property.
ii. Why your favorite? (1) economics (2) incentives, risk, reward (3) procedurally driven
K. What are your outside interests?
i. Don’t lie: it is better to say something vanilla like “cooking with my girlfriend and spending time with my friends” than to fudge an interest in sports/music/whatever.
L. Tell me something that is not on your resume?
i. I never really figured out a great answer to this one. It kind of depends on whether you are an inherently interesting person, or your life is just your work, right?
M. Questions for Interviewers
i. Most interviews are 50% questions; some are even 100% questions from the student
ii. Use the questions as signaling devices about your work ethic, seriousness, interests, commitment to the firm.
iii. When they answer, focus on grabbing onto things they say and spinning them into new questions, or replying with affirmation and expansion on what they just said. Make sure that when they stop talking, you have a new question ready, or are ready to reiterate/applaud something they said (“It’s great to hear you describe the amount of work recently popping up from the Google antitrust case, that’s what I’m really interested in” “I’m so glad to hear your comments on firm culture; that really jives with what I have read, and what I want from a firm”
iv. Questions for associates:
1. Types of projects I might see in the your section presently
2. what makes you successful here?
3. Evaluation system
4. What do they think are the advantages and disadvantages to specializing in their area
5. How would you describe the culture of the firm
6. what cases/types of cases have you seen recently
v. Questions for Partners:
1. The partnership’s vision for the firm and strategic plans
2. Your approach to business development
vi. A question that attorneys love, and which is a real rarity, is one that demonstrates you have some tiny inkling of what their area of law is about (Oh, you practice bankruptcy, what is your opinion on the move toward straight sales over restructurings? Oh, you are doing derivatives, how has Dodd Frank affected your practice? Oh, you do antitrust, what did you think about the Google case not going forward?). This only works if you have a non-retarded question to ask them, that is pertinent to their practice.



GOOD LUCK!

[semantic]

.

[Anonymous User]

Adminos, please stick this thread at the top of the page or link it under OCI advice. I am slightly introverted, I struck out last year, and I think the advice on this page is just excellent. Maybe even more important than grades, to do well at OCI, you need to walk into your interview with a smile, talk with a smile, tell them the story (story, not unconnected pieces of info.) they want to hear (too much honesty is a sign of narcissism if you feel guilty about being dishonest), project confidence, and leave with a smile. Seriously, walk into the interview believing that last night you slept with Kate Upton, and this morning she begged you not to leave even for an hour. If you do not like women, do whatever your version of this is...

One more piece of info: if halfway through OCI you are not doing well, do not let that get into you. Be confident, re-adjust your methods, start mass mailing, but do not get depressed... that will show in your interviews. Even ask for advice from classmates you trust and are doing well...

[aces]

This is great advice. OP, I would change the title to make it clear that every 2L should be reading this, not just HLS students. Mods, this should be stickied/linked to somewhere so it doesn't get forgotten.

[bumblebeetuna]

tag

[Void]

I came in here to make a snarky comment about how Harvard kids are essentially handed jobs, but this is actually a pretty great advice thread.

[Anonymous User]

This is great advice. I had 5P5H, got 1 callback that (fortunately) materialized into a job. Could have benefited a lot from this. Thumbs up.

[yankees12]

tag. this is awesome advice.

[station4]

Agreed. This is a fantastic post and useful to anyone doing interviews. That interview outline looks really effective - I used something similar, but this is even better.

[bk1]

Adminos, please stick this thread at the top of the page or link it under OCI advice.

I've linked it here.

As a side note, I think it's useful stuff but we are getting a ton of good topics and it's time to be judicious in which are and aren't stickied (I'll probably go through all the ones I've compiled in that link and try to figure out which are most appropriate to sticky and which are okay with just being a link).

[6lehderjets]

Great advice!

We've kinda been conditioned by OCS and TLS to always do cover letters, but your guide suggests just stating in your email "cover letter available upon request." Do you suggest to just bring up ties in the body of the email?

It would be great hear the results other TLSers have gotten by omitting cover letters when mass mailing.

[Mista Bojangles]

OP: I think you come off pretty jaded/cynical/bitter here. If that's any reflection of your general personality it leaves little wonder why you didn't do well at EIP.

Also, manufacturing stories about yourself, inventing significant others and family members, and generally being actively dishonest about yourself in an interview is both unethical and pathetic.

The point about conjuring up and projecting confidence (even if you don't actually feel it) is well taken. Pretending to be extroverted when you aren't isn't unethical - but a whole lot of the other advice in the OP sure is. I'm going through HLS EIP right now, and would like to think that most of my classmates aren't resorting to that.

[cidergirl]

OP: I think you come off pretty jaded/cynical/bitter here. If that's any reflection of your general personality it leaves little wonder why you didn't do well at EIP.

Also, manufacturing stories about yourself, inventing significant others and family members, and generally being actively dishonest about yourself in an interview is both unethical and pathetic.

The point about conjuring up and projecting confidence (even if you don't actually feel it) is well taken. Pretending to be extroverted when you aren't isn't unethical - but a whole lot of the other advice in the OP sure is. I'm going through HLS EIP right now, and would like to think that most of my classmates aren't resorting to that.

This. I was laboring under the impression that most of my peers are not fabricating stories for EIP. This is some really disappointing advice.

Edit: Some of the advice is very good. Lying is just a major bright line for me

[Yeshia90]

OP: I think you come off pretty jaded/cynical/bitter here. If that's any reflection of your general personality it leaves little wonder why you didn't do well at EIP.

Also, manufacturing stories about yourself, inventing significant others and family members, and generally being actively dishonest about yourself in an interview is both unethical and pathetic.

The point about conjuring up and projecting confidence (even if you don't actually feel it) is well taken. Pretending to be extroverted when you aren't isn't unethical - but a whole lot of the other advice in the OP sure is. I'm going through HLS EIP right now, and would like to think that most of my classmates aren't resorting to that.

This. I was laboring under the impression that most of my peers are not fabricating stories for EIP. This is some really disappointing advice.

Edit: Some of the advice is very good. Lying is just a major bright line for me

You do realize you're training to become a lawyer, right? Spinning the truth is literally what you're going to get paid to do.

[Mista Bojangles]

OP: I think you come off pretty jaded/cynical/bitter here. If that's any reflection of your general personality it leaves little wonder why you didn't do well at EIP.

Also, manufacturing stories about yourself, inventing significant others and family members, and generally being actively dishonest about yourself in an interview is both unethical and pathetic.

The point about conjuring up and projecting confidence (even if you don't actually feel it) is well taken. Pretending to be extroverted when you aren't isn't unethical - but a whole lot of the other advice in the OP sure is. I'm going through HLS EIP right now, and would like to think that most of my classmates aren't resorting to that.

This. I was laboring under the impression that most of my peers are not fabricating stories for EIP. This is some really disappointing advice.

Edit: Some of the advice is very good. Lying is just a major bright line for me

You do realize you're training to become a lawyer, right? Spinning the truth is literally what you're going to get paid to do.

I'm sorry you have such a cynical view of the profession, but you're failing to make a critical distinction. "Spinning the truth" so that the law shines favorably upon it for your client (what you're being paid to do as a lawyer) is NOT equal to fabricating lies out of whole cloth (e.g., inventing an SO in a city because you think it'll help you get a job there). And that's an ethical line that can't be crossed, whether in practice or in interviewing. Don't pretend they're all the same thing - they're not.

[moonman157]

Tag

[bearsfan23]

Wow, OP sounds aspie as fuck. GTFO with telling people they need to lie to get a job, that's fucking stupid advice.

If you have 4H's from Harvard and you have trouble just getting callbacks, it's probably you.

[Danger Zone]

Wow, OP sounds aspie as fuck. GTFO with telling people they need to lie to get a job, that's fucking stupid advice.

If you have 4H's from Harvard and you have trouble just getting callbacks, it's probably you.

So have you done OCI yet

[Pokemon]

Wow, OP sounds aspie as fuck. GTFO with telling people they need to lie to get a job, that's fucking stupid advice.

If you have 4H's from Harvard and you have trouble just getting callbacks, it's probably you.

Nothing wrong with exaggerating ties. At the end of the day, law firms are also really not supposed to discriminate on the basis of geographic ties yet they do.

[Mista Bojangles]

Seriously fuck OP's unethical and pathetic advice. I offered my thoughts on this earlier, and I'd like to think it's a slightly better way to approach things:

OK I'm a wee bit confused at people constantly referring to interviewing as a discrete skill. Honestly, "interviewing" (at least for EIP purposes) overlaps enormously - and very close to entirely - with just being socially able, reading social cues well, and being able to have an engaged and entertaining conversation.

Before EIP I'd never done a formal interview in my life, and hadn't even done a BS "mock interview" with OCS - then I absolutely killed EIP with a ton of callbacks, and 7 offers out of the 7 callbacks I accepted (brag blah blah, I don't feel the need for false modesty on an anonymous internet forum).

Guide to interviewing:
Three absolutely essential cardinals. Honestly the rest will just about fall into place if you at least execute these.
- Smile. Even if you hate smiling and prefer neuroticism and pain.
- Sustained eye contact
- Strong initial handshake

General tips:
- Be animated. Be lively and passionate about whatever you're talking about, whether it's an interest on your resume, or how much you loved the chocolate-covered pretzels at the firm's hospitality suite.
- Joke. Make at least one mildly self-deprecating joke to be sure that you don't come off too overconfident, if that otherwise might have been the case
- Bro out a little. If the interviewer begins to bro out back with you (which will happen a large % of the time), then proceed to bro out a lot.
- Absolutely embrace random tangents that have you talking about things completely unrelated to the firm or the law. If 3 minutes in you find the two of you talking about Spotify, or acupuncture, or your shared rock-climbing interest, run with it. Do not steer things back to the firm. If the interviewer seems entertained, you are golden.

DON'T (only one really big one I can think of):
- Approach the interview like it's an exam to be studied for. Do NOT be one of those poor souls crammed in the student lounge doing last-minute research on every aspect of the firm they're about to interview with. Spouting canned facts that you researched is a great way to come off as cold and robotic and boring. Instead, relax and eat a bagel and schmooze with your less neurotic classmates, to warm up for the more important schmoozing you're about to do. And then walk in and kill it.

[Anonymous User]

This is really poor advice and many of your projections are unnecessarily gloomy. For instance, the claim that "you're screwed if you don't have any callbacks by Wednesday night" is laughable. I got my first CB at 11 PM Wednesday (from K&E, lol) and ended up with 9 CBs. My two top choice offers came from firms I interviewed with on Thursday and Friday, respectively. I could go through other claims you've made but I'm not really interested in picking the post apart bit by bit. I'm glad you landed on your feet but I don't think this will help other HLS students do so.

I also do not think it behooves you to be dishonest. For one, it's unethical and it's unfair to your interviewers. Moreover, it doesn't serve your best interests. The reality - backed by statistics! - is that most HLS students will receive offers from multiple firms, and will have an opportunity to make some choices about what sort of dungeon they want to spend 60-80 hours a week toiling away in. There are subtle differences between firms, and being honest about who you are and what you are looking for - within reason! - is a good way to make sure you end up in a good spot for the summer and for when you begin your career.

I agree with every word of advice that Mr. Bojangles posted. I would add two things:
(1) Focus on having a conversation with your interviewer. It doesn't have to be about the firm or about your credentials, but you have to be able to hold a conversation for twenty minutes. (This isn't an additional piece of advice so much as the cliffs notes of that post).
(2) Contrary to established TLS wisdom, I do not think it is a problem to say "I am interested in litigation" or "I am interested in corporate" if that is the truth. You should have credible reasons for why you are more interested in one or the other (based on work experience, your summer job, activities you did 1L, etc.), but I don't think you have to pretend to be a blank slate if you're not one. Most of the firms at EIP are large and diversified enough that they can slot you into either, and if you do only want one or the other, you can construct your bid list accordingly.

[jbagelboy]

While I don't agree with outright lies and manipulations - ethically and also because its a job interview where you'll be working 60-70 hrs/wk and you would inevitably be found out when you slip up over a mistake of fact - the OP did note this advice is for "marginal" candidates. If you're a strong interviewer and have solid grades I doubt much of this is as significant. You don't need all these little tricks and gambits if you're a normal, sociable professional who does well in school. If you're weird or fucked up 1L then I can see how this advice might help compensate.

[Anonymous User]

Even though this is a bit of a resurrection, I figured this is the most on-topic existing thread. And some people upstream urged that this thread be stickied.

1L Fall Grades came back. It was a total trainwreck. 2LPs (1 in LRW), rest Ps.

I had some things going on last semester and they're over now.

I'm not presuming that this semester will be a complete aboutface, but my results have scared me straight so if next semester is a repeat performance it won't be for a lack of trying.

Assume I get straight H's, or H's in LRW and all but one of my doctrinal classes.

1. How commonly do people improve from the Fall to the Spring, or is it more "once a bottom quartile/quintile/etc student, always a ___ student"?

2. How will EIP employers perceive my Fall semester and the contrast between the two semesters? Will no improvement be good enough to put me back in the running for, e.g., V20 NYC?

3. Assuming the Spring doesn't end in either A. Straight H's or B. All but one, how screwed am I?

Is it dumb to be pondering the "should I drop out/go on leave" debate at HLS?

I have a few leads into consulting & finance (mostly midtier, a few top-tier exceptions) for this upcoming summer and I think I have the "quant skills" for them.

[fats provolone]

try to figure out what you did wrong first semester

try to fix it / get better at law school exams

bid smartly (i.e., less selective firms with large classes in NYC)

or pursue other avenues if you have connections. do both

[Anonymous User]

try to figure out what you did wrong first semester

try to fix it / get better at law school exams

bid smartly (i.e., less selective firms with large classes in NYC)

or pursue other avenues if you have connections. do both

If I finish with 3-5 H's, which, I'm told, ranges from slightly below median to slightly above, I'm still screwed?

Does "pursue other avenues" mean "consider dropping out"?