The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

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rcharter1978

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rcharter1978 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Feeling rly depressed today. It’s been about a month after my lay off and still no offers. I realize it is year end but I am still not feeling great about my job prospects. Some days I want to say fuck it and leave the practice of law entirely. Working at a bank making 60-70k with good benefits seems tempting. Any job other than law seems tempting at this point... :oops:


This is the nature of the beast. Keep working on it, it just takes one prospect to work out. That's all. I hated the job search and it sucked all the monkey balls in the world, and then suddenly I had two job offers. Just do the best you can and don't beat yourself up when you take a day to stew and feel sorry for yourself. And then get and get back at it!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby QContinuum » Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:23 pm

rcharter1978 wrote:Yeah, I'm no hiring partner, but I'd be pretty put off if I directly asked a candidate about their grades and their reply was "grades don't matter."

Agree with the above. I hope no jobseeker follows that advice. Being combative with the interviewer is an awful strategy.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:49 pm

Recent grad here -- I struggled to find a full-time job until I finally passed the California bar.

I've been applying for jobs since August. Out of 300 applications (all public interest employers), I managed to get 15 interviews. Out of those interviews, I finally got an offer. It was definitely a roller coaster ride, but staying optimistic and grinding every day goes a long way. Things will work out!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby drifting » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:15 pm

An introduction I guess, since I'll probably be on this thread for the next year.

I'm a below median student at a T30 with a 3.3 gpa. I just got my grades back from fall semester and I'm thinking of just giving up. I was hoping to get better grades and raise my school rank but I did even worse than the prior semester. It hurts even more because I thought I did a much better job studying this time around. I'm so so tired of failing and being scared. I've been applying to jobs but I haven't had a single interview in months. I have nightmares of my loan debt and I cry myself to sleep more often than not.

Nice to meet you all.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby QContinuum » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Recent grad here -- I struggled to find a full-time job until I finally passed the California bar.

I've been applying for jobs since August. Out of 300 applications (all public interest employers), I managed to get 15 interviews. Out of those interviews, I finally got an offer. It was definitely a roller coaster ride, but staying optimistic and grinding every day goes a long way. Things will work out!

CONGRATS on your success! Thrilled for you.

To the other readers of this thread, take heart from the above. In many cases, you won't land a job until after you've passed the bar. Many, even most employers simply aren't in a position to hire someone who isn't yet an admitted lawyer. They need someone who's licensed starting on day one. (Of course, don't stop looking for jobs during 3L/pre-bar passage! But just keep in mind that your best chance of getting a legal job lies in the future, so don't be disheartened if you don't find anything now.)

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rcharter1978 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:34 pm

drifting wrote:An introduction I guess, since I'll probably be on this thread for the next year.

I'm a below median student at a T30 with a 3.3 gpa. I just got my grades back from fall semester and I'm thinking of just giving up. I was hoping to get better grades and raise my school rank but I did even worse than the prior semester. It hurts even more because I thought I did a much better job studying this time around. I'm so so tired of failing and being scared. I've been applying to jobs but I haven't had a single interview in months. I have nightmares of my loan debt and I cry myself to sleep more often than not.

Nice to meet you all.


It's tough, grades are so subjective.

I can tell you though that people can feel when another person is desperate and it's not a good look. So, try not to be so hard on yourself. Something will come up, if straight up interviews aren't working maybe you can try an alternate path like doing the coffee thing with past alums.

It has been my experience that everyone loves the chance to talk about how amazing they are over coffee, but more than that, people are just nice and helpful...as weird as that sounds.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:09 pm

Does anyone know the likelihood of success in the 3L rush for biglaw as a top 10% from a Canadian school?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:24 pm

I am finally out of the vale after being laid off 2-3 months ago. I was literally about to throw in the towel when I just got two offers in one day. One offer from a botique firm is a 6 digit salary with an origination percentage on matters I bring in. This exceeded my expectations. I’m literally pinching myself to make sure this isn’t a dream. It was a long hard journey for the past 2-3 months but I finally made it... thank you all for the encouragement to keep going...

My advice is to pray a lot and network network network....

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby babblingbroad » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:38 pm

Welp, I have been a long time observer of TLS and finally bit the bullet and made a username so I could commiserate with y'all.

I went to a T100 school...if that's even a thing. Never wanted to be a lawyer - I actually thought going would give me more time to write...I know, I know. But I feel like I put out so much bad juju about not wanting to be a lawyer that now, when I do, I cant find a job to save my life. I moved home to study for the NY bar, passed on the second try, was admitted last week and have been looking for a position for a year. Literally 11 months. I came across this thread because I started googling how bad the job prospects were for lawyers. I didn't know. I knew there was a high rate of unemployment when I left law school but I feel like my parents convinced me I was nuts and that of course I'd find a job. I have looked in compliance and proper attorney positions and nothing. Everything seems to be litigation centered and that is so not in my wheelhouse. I can't believe how hard this is...

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby QContinuum » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:01 pm

babblingbroad wrote:Welp, I have been a long time observer of TLS and finally bit the bullet and made a username so I could commiserate with y'all.

I went to a T100 school...if that's even a thing. Never wanted to be a lawyer - I actually thought going would give me more time to write...I know, I know. But I feel like I put out so much bad juju about not wanting to be a lawyer that now, when I do, I cant find a job to save my life. I moved home to study for the NY bar, passed on the second try, was admitted last week and have been looking for a position for a year. Literally 11 months. I came across this thread because I started googling how bad the job prospects were for lawyers. I didn't know. I knew there was a high rate of unemployment when I left law school but I feel like my parents convinced me I was nuts and that of course I'd find a job. I have looked in compliance and proper attorney positions and nothing. Everything seems to be litigation centered and that is so not in my wheelhouse. I can't believe how hard this is...

Welcome to the forum and congrats on being admitted to the NY bar! That's a huge step forward.

I know it is very frustrating to have looked so long and not landed a job, but the thing is, many, even most employers simply aren't in a position to hire someone who isn't yet an admitted lawyer. They need someone who's licensed starting on day one. Your best chance of getting a legal job actually started last week when you got admitted. Don't give up! Your odds of success are better now than they've ever been.

Also, I'm not sure whether you're currently working a nonlegal job, but in any case, do whatever you can to get some legal experience on your resume. Could be an unpaid government law gig (NY has a few of those, I believe), could be pro bono work for a PI org. Doesn't have to be full-time. Just as long as there's something legal you can put on your resume.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:37 pm

3L with a 3.70 GPA at a T3 in a major city, just about top 10%, full scholarship so no debt, but no job also. Feeling pretty lost, had a number of big law call back interviews over the last 2 years but never got any of them. Are my big law chances over?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby QContinuum » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:3L with a 3.70 GPA at a T3 in a major city, just about top 10%, full scholarship so no debt, but no job also. Feeling pretty lost, had a number of big law call back interviews over the last 2 years but never got any of them. Are my big law chances over?

You can continue applying, but as you probably know, your chances are very slim from a T3. IMO your focus now should be on landing a job - any job. I think the time for focusing solely on BigLaw is over.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby 2013 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:11 pm

QContinuum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:3L with a 3.70 GPA at a T3 in a major city, just about top 10%, full scholarship so no debt, but no job also. Feeling pretty lost, had a number of big law call back interviews over the last 2 years but never got any of them. Are my big law chances over?

You can continue applying, but as you probably know, your chances are very slim from a T3. IMO your focus now should be on landing a job - any job. I think the time for focusing solely on BigLaw is over.


Agree with the above. Also, to be honest, top 10% at a T3 school already gave you a pretty slim shot at biglaw, so you should’ve been hustling for other jobs anyway.

Keep applying to biglaw, but start looking at midlaw and in-house at this point.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby QContinuum » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:27 am

2013 wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:3L with a 3.70 GPA at a T3 in a major city, just about top 10%, full scholarship so no debt, but no job also. Feeling pretty lost, had a number of big law call back interviews over the last 2 years but never got any of them. Are my big law chances over?

You can continue applying, but as you probably know, your chances are very slim from a T3. IMO your focus now should be on landing a job - any job. I think the time for focusing solely on BigLaw is over.


Agree with the above. Also, to be honest, top 10% at a T3 school already gave you a pretty slim shot at biglaw, so you should’ve been hustling for other jobs anyway.

Keep applying to biglaw, but start looking at midlaw and in-house at this point.

Yep. Midlaw, in-house, fed gov, state gov. Blanket your law school city, NYC, and any other cities/markets where you remotely have ties. Of course, customize your CL and resume - when I say "blanket" I mean "blanket" in terms of quantity of applications, not "blanket" in terms of sending out the same application to every single employer.

The most important thing now is to land a job. Don't be picky about location or practice area or agency or whatnot. Once you have a job, you will be able to lateral in the future. Getting that first legal job is the hardest step.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Jinjuice » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:33 pm

How is he supposed to get in-house or even fed for that matter? What kind of in-house employers hire 3Ls? I heard in-house is mostly reserved for big law associates making the lateral move to in-house. I’ve also heard getting in-house as a 3L or recent licensed attorney is hard. Hell, if anyone has any ideas, I’d be interested too in getting in-house. I’m a recent licensed attorney ( Nov. 2018) and stuck in the vail... doing all I can to get out and have some interviews coming up, but would be interested in in-house positions right out of law school too. Are you talking about insurance defense in-house positions, like Gieco, All State, and State Farm? I believe those are entry-level in-house. What about fed. positions? The only possible somewhat entry-level fed position I can think of is AUSA and even that is hard I believe straight out of law school (assuming you are at a lower T1-T3, like the poster who mentioned big law above), depending on district.

I’m sorry I may be ignorant on this topic, but I thought this was the general consensus.

Did not mean to post anonymous also.
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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby anon sequitur » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:13 pm

There are fed positions open to inexperienced attorneys, anything that is advertised as gs11. Jobs within the Department of Homeland Security (especially ICE and BOP), the VA and SS administration all frequently hire for entry-level attorneys. These are reasons that recruitment for these positions is harder, and getting hired is easier, but they are legitimate federal attorney jobs.
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Reason: Outed for anon abuse.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Jinjuice » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:28 am

I’m not very sure how to narrow down the gs categories for entry-level fed. Jobs, but I will do some research. I take it that gs-11 is what one would look into applying for entry-level fed positions?

Does the gs level also have anything to do with security clearance level for the job as well?

If anyone has a good read for me that would explain/break the gs categories and/or clearance levels, I’ll go ahead and read that as well.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby anon sequitur » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:00 pm

USAJobs is such a horrible horrible website I'm not sure how one is supposed to know this, but what you want to do is just search for job series 0905, which is for attorney positions. You can exclude whatever pay grades you want, but I always left all the other filters off, because I don't trust the jobs to be listed correctly (there are other scales besides gs).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:3L with a 3.70 GPA at a T3 in a major city, just about top 10%, full scholarship so no debt, but no job also. Feeling pretty lost, had a number of big law call back interviews over the last 2 years but never got any of them. Are my big law chances over?


Hey. I was also a top 10% from t3 from a major city (SF). i got my job at a mid-law defense lit firm right after taking the bar exam. it's not too bad here if that's where you're at too. the pay isn't bad at all as well--115k to start. As others have mentioned: Linkedin, craigslist, indeed, your city's bar association job listings. apply quick. check every day. if a new one opens up, draft a tailored cover letter and apply same day. Make sure your writing sample is top notch.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:06 pm

I just had an interview today that I was really excited about until I ran into another interviewee from my school. He's much more qualified than me; he's got a better clerkship and more prestigious firm experience. To add insult to injury, he's even better dressed than me. So my hopes of getting this job just plummeted.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:19 pm

idk if this is going to be relevant in this thread but I just fucked up big time today. I'm a 3L and I have no interview for today but I lied that I did.
Backstory, my friend and I applied to the same big company, my friend got some kind of response, I didn't. So I lied and said I interviewed with them today. Total shitty move, I panicked alright? Well I got so used to saying it that I ended up saying it all the way to my internship where I told the attorneys there that I had this interview. Turns out, those attorneys knew ppl at the big firm and one of them even lived next to the legal recruiter for the firm. Fml, so here I am fumbling through a terrible explanation, they're confused b/c how on earth could I not remember the interviewer's name, and it's just a total shit show. One of them already knows (or at least suspects) I was lying. Another is going to be find soon b/c he literally lives next to the legal recruiter.

I'm having some kind of panicked breakdown b/c I fucked myself over. At best, these ppl will just judge me, at worst, my name will get out in the legal community as a fucking liar. I wish I hadn't said anything and now its too late to take anything back.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby drifting » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:28 pm

rcharter1978 wrote:
drifting wrote:An introduction I guess, since I'll probably be on this thread for the next year.

I'm a below median student at a T30 with a 3.3 gpa. I just got my grades back from fall semester and I'm thinking of just giving up. I was hoping to get better grades and raise my school rank but I did even worse than the prior semester. It hurts even more because I thought I did a much better job studying this time around. I'm so so tired of failing and being scared. I've been applying to jobs but I haven't had a single interview in months. I have nightmares of my loan debt and I cry myself to sleep more often than not.

Nice to meet you all.


It's tough, grades are so subjective.

I can tell you though that people can feel when another person is desperate and it's not a good look. So, try not to be so hard on yourself. Something will come up, if straight up interviews aren't working maybe you can try an alternate path like doing the coffee thing with past alums.

It has been my experience that everyone loves the chance to talk about how amazing they are over coffee, but more than that, people are just nice and helpful...as weird as that sounds.


God I was so depressing that day. Thanks for the advice! I'm still grinding away but alot less gloomy after I got used to my fall grades report. Now I'm just the typical slightly depressed law student. I haven't started the coffee method yet but I know some ppl swear by it so I might pick that up...

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rcharter1978 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:33 pm

drifting wrote:
rcharter1978 wrote:
drifting wrote:An introduction I guess, since I'll probably be on this thread for the next year.

I'm a below median student at a T30 with a 3.3 gpa. I just got my grades back from fall semester and I'm thinking of just giving up. I was hoping to get better grades and raise my school rank but I did even worse than the prior semester. It hurts even more because I thought I did a much better job studying this time around. I'm so so tired of failing and being scared. I've been applying to jobs but I haven't had a single interview in months. I have nightmares of my loan debt and I cry myself to sleep more often than not.

Nice to meet you all.


It's tough, grades are so subjective.

I can tell you though that people can feel when another person is desperate and it's not a good look. So, try not to be so hard on yourself. Something will come up, if straight up interviews aren't working maybe you can try an alternate path like doing the coffee thing with past alums.

It has been my experience that everyone loves the chance to talk about how amazing they are over coffee, but more than that, people are just nice and helpful...as weird as that sounds.


God I was so depressing that day. Thanks for the advice! I'm still grinding away but alot less gloomy after I got used to my fall grades report. Now I'm just the typical slightly depressed law student. I haven't started the coffee method yet but I know some ppl swear by it so I might pick that up...


No worries, so happy to hear you're feeling better! I had started the coffee method, but got offers before I really tried to work it. But I will say that people were super open to it and really wanted to be as helpful as possible.

I just think that it's easy to get stuck in one path. But, as cliche as it sounds, there is more than one way to skin a cat (although, I can only think of one).

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:47 pm

Anonymous User wrote:idk if this is going to be relevant in this thread but I just fucked up big time today. I'm a 3L and I have no interview for today but I lied that I did.
Backstory, my friend and I applied to the same big company, my friend got some kind of response, I didn't. So I lied and said I interviewed with them today. Total shitty move, I panicked alright? Well I got so used to saying it that I ended up saying it all the way to my internship where I told the attorneys there that I had this interview. Turns out, those attorneys knew ppl at the big firm and one of them even lived next to the legal recruiter for the firm. Fml, so here I am fumbling through a terrible explanation, they're confused b/c how on earth could I not remember the interviewer's name, and it's just a total shit show. One of them already knows (or at least suspects) I was lying. Another is going to be find soon b/c he literally lives next to the legal recruiter.

I'm having some kind of panicked breakdown b/c I fucked myself over. At best, these ppl will just judge me, at worst, my name will get out in the legal community as a fucking liar. I wish I hadn't said anything and now its too late to take anything back.


This is sad. But also hilarious. Alright, so yeah you made a mistake and these attorneys probably won't trust you the same way they did before, but it's not the end of the world. Your internship with this firm is going to last how long? I would just bear with it and pretend it never happened, and if they bring it up just apologize and tell them the reason why you lied was because you were embarrassed and trying to cover it up. They're not going to go out into the legal community and put up fliers about how you lied about having an interview. A few people will know but at worst you should just get a little ridicule. So breathe and just dont ever do it again.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rcharter1978 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:49 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:idk if this is going to be relevant in this thread but I just fucked up big time today. I'm a 3L and I have no interview for today but I lied that I did.
Backstory, my friend and I applied to the same big company, my friend got some kind of response, I didn't. So I lied and said I interviewed with them today. Total shitty move, I panicked alright? Well I got so used to saying it that I ended up saying it all the way to my internship where I told the attorneys there that I had this interview. Turns out, those attorneys knew ppl at the big firm and one of them even lived next to the legal recruiter for the firm. Fml, so here I am fumbling through a terrible explanation, they're confused b/c how on earth could I not remember the interviewer's name, and it's just a total shit show. One of them already knows (or at least suspects) I was lying. Another is going to be find soon b/c he literally lives next to the legal recruiter.

I'm having some kind of panicked breakdown b/c I fucked myself over. At best, these ppl will just judge me, at worst, my name will get out in the legal community as a fucking liar. I wish I hadn't said anything and now its too late to take anything back.


This is sad. But also hilarious. Alright, so yeah you made a mistake and these attorneys probably won't trust you the same way they did before, but it's not the end of the world. Your internship with this firm is going to last how long? I would just bear with it and pretend it never happened, and if they bring it up just apologize and tell them the reason why you lied was because you were embarrassed and trying to cover it up. They're not going to go out into the legal community and put up fliers about how you lied about having an interview. A few people will know but at worst you should just get a little ridicule. So breathe and just dont ever do it again.


This sounds like legitimate advice. I think people can be sympathetic to the idea of feeling so much pressure to succeed. My suspicion is that in the long run you'll just be a story, but one where people are like "I once knew this guy/girl who..."



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