The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:22 pm

I can see why they hired you. I feel better.

Bla Bla Bla Blah

Bronze
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:01 pm

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Bla Bla Bla Blah » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:00 am

The legal job market is honestly humming again. Try not to stress too much if you are a 3L, it’s going to work out. Just focus on your schooling and come out of law school without the bitterness I carried in ‘14 because of a scary market and, well, the law school experience in general. There are good options now. Even recruiting agencies are offering great compensation. That wasn’t the case even two years ago.

PM me if you want any details, or what I went through and how I landed in a great firm. But try not to worry too much. There are Associate opportunities that require no experience regularly seen in job postings again.

theswisswereright

New
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:12 pm

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby theswisswereright » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:32 pm

Out of the vale with a clerkship. It's with a magistrate judge, but I love her, I love the city, and it's post-grad employment with health insurance, plus I have contact with at least one midsize firm who told me if I'm still interested after the clerkship I should get in touch.

I honestly felt really scared and hopeless over the last few months, but I refused to stop trying. I believe the only way to get a job if you're not at a great school/aren't top 10% is to be like a fly trying to get out of a window. If you keep slamming yourself against the glass, someone will open it or swat you, but don't quit until then.

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:52 pm

I got no-offered by my firm following 2L. It was a really tough time. I cried a bit, applied everywhere, and got absolutely no interest from full-time employers. Not even rejection letters. Eventually I picked up a state level trial judge clerkship doing something I absolutely hated.

Anyway, two months into that clerkship I just accepted my dream job. I’m so glad I went with the clerkship; if I hadn’t been willing to swallow my pride and take the awful clerkship, I never would have gotten this position.

Best of luck to everyone in the vale. I know it doesn’t seem true, but things will get better.

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:58 am

Mind if I ask - what industry are you working with? with inhouse its tricky, I've seen jobs that pay as little as 45k and jobs that as you mentioned pay biglaw bucks for significantly better lifestyle. I'm curious what area you ended up in to see what other areas pay well.

Anonymous User wrote:Just got out of the vale 2 weeks ago...only wanted in-house in major city from a T25 the other side of the country...lol I did it after 350-400 (literally lost count) applications. I went to a few job fairs, got my resume passed along but no one was interested...and I'm black like how are you not interested?! I never list my GPA! Only 2 legal internships, 1 year work experience at Fortune 50 (lol I'm only at math, I write like a kindergartener).

TL;DR

WHO I AM: black, personable, dumb as rocks, but I'm a good time.

WHAT I HAD:

GPA: 2.7 (Got a D+/- (who cares it's a D) 1L year in international law...the US doesn't care, why should I?) So I made my bed at that point. 3L year found out I had a brain tumor (it's chill now, nbd), BOTTOM 5%; if we're going to keep it all the way real I've always been a bad student...high IQ, but I lack intellectual depth.
School:T25 (oh it's definitely a trap school, but hey T25, ma!)
Applications:350-400 (lost count, personalized each one)
Interviews: 3 (1 non-paid, 1 super duper small tech startup [two interviews, no response], 1 over the phone interview [current job])

WHAT I WANTED: 9-5, in-house, NYC, niche, little or big I didn't care, $75-100k (like let's be real I have a D on my report card...b-b-but I deserve the world!)

WHAT I GOT:
9-5, in-house, NYC, broader than my niche, household name company, big law bucks, youngest in my department by ~20 years

It's only been a month but I love it, it's more than I could ever ask for. I wake up every morning pinching myself that someone chose me.

Advice:

don't settle and screw the haters, you're the best!
"If somebody says no, you're talking to the wrong person."~Kris Jenner
I made over 350 personalized cover letters with local addresses targeted for EVERY SINGLE company I wanted.
I also love dying social platforms like TLS and Tumblr and read inspo/quotes.
Listen to a lot of Kanye West, I admire his confidence.

IMO a lot of networking is lip service, but hell I'm charming but not sure if I would hire me either if I saw my grades either but lots of people wouldn't even ask me yet! I even had people that would REACH out to me and say how easy I am to talk to versus other students but never an interview. Like I'm black, in this political climate, don't you just want to let me in so I can be on the splash page of your website?

All in all, it was just luck. I wish the best for all of you. You're smart and determined. Great things are coming, there is so,so much to look forward to!

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:28 pm

In a vale until last month when I passed the bar. City attorney office in secondary city.

Before law school I was a driving instructor. Made 2-3x what I do now. Also the job was way more fun and I met a lot of people/ women I had relationships with through it. But my family valued education and prestige and I bought into that. I'm going to transition back drivers ed as I pay back 150k debt (transferred to T10 away from a regional full ride like an idiot). Hopefully I'll have $0 net worth at 30.

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:13 pm

Currently 3L at a T10 and slightly below median. Grades have gotten better, but I had a bad first semester and apparently that was enough to screw me at 2L OCI (plus lack of ties to major markets). It absolutely sucks to not have something lined up when you had to watch your friends work at massive firms for massive money SAs when you barely scratched out in a secondary market for peanuts. Have mass mailed around 1000 applications (clerkships, big/medium/small firms, government) but have a grand total of nothing to show for it. Gotten a couple of BigLaw callbacks and other smaller firm interviews but always seem to lose out after a "reevaluation of needs." I know interviewing has been a problem in the past and I have taken steps to try to correct it (coaching, practice interviews, etc.).

I wanted to go to a top school because I wanted the type of career that a brand-name school could get you (BigLaw followed by in-house, federal government, or manageable-hours midlaw). Now I feel like a fool for attending this school when I could have had the same bad prospects for free at a state school in a state I loved to lived in. People keep saying the legal market is good, but it is pretty hard to see how from my position. Have kept mass mailing to anyone I've heard of that has some semblance of an opening and places I think might be receptive to someone with my schooling/credentials. I'm really trying not to lose hope, but part of me just wants to drop out and go teach English in Europe.

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:17 pm

Wanted to join in on the venting – Median 3L at T10. Just got rejected by a big firm last week after what I thought was a fairly promising callback. I'm really starting to lose hope. The idea of having to sit for the bar without any employment prospect in sight is truly terrifying. I will literally be the only one in my class graduating without a job, and I feel so powerless at this point. There just seems to be nothing I can do to turn it around. I'm trying to buckle down and focus on getting good grades, networking, mass mailing, all that stuff, but some days (like today) I just want to give up, drop out of law school, and go do something less competitive with my life.

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:26 pm

I have a close relative in big law. I have the best in the business calling these firms and telling them to hire me. I am even telling these firms how they will all refer me business. I feel like it’s getting me no where. Too many attorneys looking for jobs and not enough job openings. Law firms rather overwork the associates they have rather than bring someone new onto the payroll. It is just something I have observed after 7+ interviews.

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:15 pm

If the best legal work I can get right now is small plaintiffs' law, something that's totally unprestigious and unselective, is that going to be an actual minus to apply to firms next year? Is it better for me to for instance go to a better-known company to do work that isn't legal, like be an analyst alongside bright 22-year-olds, or just list my research positions?

Also, this may be a dumb question, but how do I find out what midlaw firms are out there?

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:36 pm

Bla Bla Bla Blah wrote:The legal job market is honestly humming again. Try not to stress too much if you are a 3L, it’s going to work out. Just focus on your schooling and come out of law school without the bitterness I carried in ‘14 because of a scary market and, well, the law school experience in general. There are good options now. Even recruiting agencies are offering great compensation. That wasn’t the case even two years ago.

PM me if you want any details, or what I went through and how I landed in a great firm. But try not to worry too much. There are Associate opportunities that require no experience regularly seen in job postings again.


The job market fluctuates, and people over react. It happened with the dotcom bust, with everyone rushing into computer science, then the bust happened and people were scared off. Now, people are rushing in with the boom and there are coder bootcamps.

The legal market was going to recover. It's changed compared to before, but before were acting like all law grads were doomed. :roll:

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 01, 2018 5:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Just got out of the vale 2 weeks ago...only wanted in-house in major city from a T25 the other side of the country...lol I did it after 350-400 (literally lost count) applications. I went to a few job fairs, got my resume passed along but no one was interested...and I'm black like how are you not interested?! I never list my GPA! Only 2 legal internships, 1 year work experience at Fortune 50 (lol I'm only at math, I write like a kindergartener).

TL;DR

WHO I AM: black, personable, dumb as rocks, but I'm a good time.

WHAT I HAD:

GPA: 2.7 (Got a D+/- (who cares it's a D) 1L year in international law...the US doesn't care, why should I?) So I made my bed at that point. 3L year found out I had a brain tumor (it's chill now, nbd), BOTTOM 5%; if we're going to keep it all the way real I've always been a bad student...high IQ, but I lack intellectual depth.
School:T25 (oh it's definitely a trap school, but hey T25, ma!)
Applications:350-400 (lost count, personalized each one)
Interviews: 3 (1 non-paid, 1 super duper small tech startup [two interviews, no response], 1 over the phone interview [current job])



I was also a bottom student at a law school here no one's heard of and people would not go to. Never really excelled at school, just really went to avoid work for both undergrad and law school. Academics annoy me.

I have a six digit salary job with benefits at a law firm (pay comparable to mid-law and some top 100 firms in my market).

I never put my GPA on my resume and I never bring it up unless they bring it up. There are many ways around the GPA issue. I won't list it, even for required jobs and if they ask for it I'll give an answer like grades don't matter. You just have to be smart about it.

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:40 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Just got out of the vale 2 weeks ago...only wanted in-house in major city from a T25 the other side of the country...lol I did it after 350-400 (literally lost count) applications. I went to a few job fairs, got my resume passed along but no one was interested...and I'm black like how are you not interested?! I never list my GPA! Only 2 legal internships, 1 year work experience at Fortune 50 (lol I'm only at math, I write like a kindergartener).

TL;DR

WHO I AM: black, personable, dumb as rocks, but I'm a good time.

WHAT I HAD:

GPA: 2.7 (Got a D+/- (who cares it's a D) 1L year in international law...the US doesn't care, why should I?) So I made my bed at that point. 3L year found out I had a brain tumor (it's chill now, nbd), BOTTOM 5%; if we're going to keep it all the way real I've always been a bad student...high IQ, but I lack intellectual depth.
School:T25 (oh it's definitely a trap school, but hey T25, ma!)
Applications:350-400 (lost count, personalized each one)
Interviews: 3 (1 non-paid, 1 super duper small tech startup [two interviews, no response], 1 over the phone interview [current job])



I was also a bottom student at a law school here no one's heard of and people would not go to. Never really excelled at school, just really went to avoid work for both undergrad and law school. Academics annoy me.

I have a six digit salary job with benefits at a law firm (pay comparable to mid-law and some top 100 firms in my market).

I never put my GPA on my resume and I never bring it up unless they bring it up. There are many ways around the GPA issue. I won't list it, even for required jobs and if they ask for it I'll give an answer like grades don't matter. You just have to be smart about it.


I'd like to see how the bolded works in practice.

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:22 pm

Just checking in to see how the job search is going for everyone. It’s year end and I feel most firms don’t want to consider hiring any more associates until the new year. Anyone else feel the same?

I have been on several interviews after being laid off and still no offer yet. I’m trying not to become depressed but it isn’t easy. Any words of encouragement will help me.

Thank you.

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:27 pm

Hey Everyone,

I finally made it out the vale. I graduated from a top law school in NY back in May. I failed the UBE exam by 10 points, BUT this week I finally got an associate position at a corporate/securities law firm. Just want to encourage people to never give up, keep fighting.

2 Chronicles 15:7-But as for you, be strong and do not give up, for your work will be rewarded.”

Jeremiah 29:11-For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Proverbs 16:3 -Commit to the Lord whatever you do, and he will establish your plans.

God is Good!

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:12 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Just got out of the vale 2 weeks ago...only wanted in-house in major city from a T25 the other side of the country...lol I did it after 350-400 (literally lost count) applications. I went to a few job fairs, got my resume passed along but no one was interested...and I'm black like how are you not interested?! I never list my GPA! Only 2 legal internships, 1 year work experience at Fortune 50 (lol I'm only at math, I write like a kindergartener).

TL;DR

WHO I AM: black, personable, dumb as rocks, but I'm a good time.

WHAT I HAD:

GPA: 2.7 (Got a D+/- (who cares it's a D) 1L year in international law...the US doesn't care, why should I?) So I made my bed at that point. 3L year found out I had a brain tumor (it's chill now, nbd), BOTTOM 5%; if we're going to keep it all the way real I've always been a bad student...high IQ, but I lack intellectual depth.
School:T25 (oh it's definitely a trap school, but hey T25, ma!)
Applications:350-400 (lost count, personalized each one)
Interviews: 3 (1 non-paid, 1 super duper small tech startup [two interviews, no response], 1 over the phone interview [current job])



I was also a bottom student at a law school here no one's heard of and people would not go to. Never really excelled at school, just really went to avoid work for both undergrad and law school. Academics annoy me.

I have a six digit salary job with benefits at a law firm (pay comparable to mid-law and some top 100 firms in my market).

I never put my GPA on my resume and I never bring it up unless they bring it up. There are many ways around the GPA issue. I won't list it, even for required jobs and if they ask for it I'll give an answer like grades don't matter. You just have to be smart about it.


So you dont send your transcript even if its requested?

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:22 am

As a 2016 graduate who only got a job after the bar results came out, I feel for all in the vale. I vowed that if I ever did become employed, I’d never become out of touch with the real world of legal hiring. I’ve heard from many people who are out for a few years that the market is much better. I’m skeptical. This group could probably speak much more accurately as to the true state of the market. Please enlighten

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:30 pm

Feeling rly depressed today. It’s been about a month after my lay off and still no offers. I realize it is year end but I am still not feeling great about my job prospects. Some days I want to say fuck it and leave the practice of law entirely. Working at a bank making 60-70k with good benefits seems tempting. Any job other than law seems tempting at this point... :oops:

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:12 pm

I was wondering if anyone had any insight into how depression/traumatic recovery factors into firm hiring. Before law school I knew a couple of people with terrible undergrad grades who got very good LSAT scores (179/180) and ended up in T6. One of them got terrible law school grades as well because he was still figuring out how to manage his depression. He still got an offer from a firm in NY, though - regular recruiting process. The other was not depressed, just didn't really have his shit together as a young person still finding his way. He also got an offer through the regular recruiting process (laid off later, but that's another story).

I am in a somewhat different position, I was more traditional earlier on but entered a difficult period partway thru law school. I figure this must happen sometimes - people have a divorce, or a family member dies, or whatever, and they need a long time to process. But what is harder to figure out is what happens to these people and how their record is viewed in the short term. Has anyone heard of these people making it thru? People are encouraging but I haven't found much hard info about this.

[on second thought, un-deleted]
Last edited by Anonymous User on Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

nixy

Silver
Posts: 1462
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:58 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby nixy » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:29 pm

I’m completely confused by your question, mostly because I don’t get what role depression/traumatic recovery is playing here. Do you mean does it make a difference at what point in your timeline you struggle? Why would your situation be different from the two people you mention?

nixy

Silver
Posts: 1462
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:58 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby nixy » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:51 pm

I’m not sure about your timeline but I would absolutely not attribute any problems/gaps to mental illness. There shouldn’t be a stigma, but there is, and you probably want to get a job before you start being open about stuff in order to help break that stigma down.

(I think this is true in any industry but given the prevalence of depression in law and how many lawyers hate their jobs I even more so would not bring it up.)

Also not sure why you would bring up any illness to begin with, unless it was absolutely unavoidable.

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:50 pm

Out of the vale! Graduated top 1/3 from a TT, landed a nonprofit job in the area of law I want. The salary is kind of low but lol, it's public interest what do you expect, I'm just happy to be employed lol.

It was honestly really stressful the past couple months, especially when classmates with similar stats landed jobs but I was still searching. I have a good resume so I didn't have trouble landing interviews (I mass-applied to anything that sounded remotely interesting lol), but I'm terrible at interviewing so it was really discouraging to get all my hopes up but never hear back from anyone. I think it's really important to keep hustling, whether it's looking on job boards every day or grabbing networking coffees; while I don't think a networking connection landed me my job, it definitely helped me get my foot in the door. Best of luck to everyone still searching - it's definitely a rough experience so remember to take care of yourself and not give up!

Anonymous User
Posts: 334476
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:15 am

New Years Resolution: Find job by 2020 or else suicide

QContinuum

Moderator
Posts: 2358
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:52 am

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby QContinuum » Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:New Years Resolution: Find job by 2020 or else suicide

Help is available. If you're in the U.S., please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255. You are worth more than what job you have or how much money you make. Please seek help.

User avatar
rcharter1978

Gold
Posts: 4502
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Postby rcharter1978 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 3:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Just got out of the vale 2 weeks ago...only wanted in-house in major city from a T25 the other side of the country...lol I did it after 350-400 (literally lost count) applications. I went to a few job fairs, got my resume passed along but no one was interested...and I'm black like how are you not interested?! I never list my GPA! Only 2 legal internships, 1 year work experience at Fortune 50 (lol I'm only at math, I write like a kindergartener).

TL;DR

WHO I AM: black, personable, dumb as rocks, but I'm a good time.

WHAT I HAD:

GPA: 2.7 (Got a D+/- (who cares it's a D) 1L year in international law...the US doesn't care, why should I?) So I made my bed at that point. 3L year found out I had a brain tumor (it's chill now, nbd), BOTTOM 5%; if we're going to keep it all the way real I've always been a bad student...high IQ, but I lack intellectual depth.
School:T25 (oh it's definitely a trap school, but hey T25, ma!)
Applications:350-400 (lost count, personalized each one)
Interviews: 3 (1 non-paid, 1 super duper small tech startup [two interviews, no response], 1 over the phone interview [current job])



I was also a bottom student at a law school here no one's heard of and people would not go to. Never really excelled at school, just really went to avoid work for both undergrad and law school. Academics annoy me.

I have a six digit salary job with benefits at a law firm (pay comparable to mid-law and some top 100 firms in my market).

I never put my GPA on my resume and I never bring it up unless they bring it up. There are many ways around the GPA issue. I won't list it, even for required jobs and if they ask for it I'll give an answer like grades don't matter. You just have to be smart about it.


I'd like to see how the bolded works in practice.


Yeah, I'm no hiring partner, but I'd be pretty put off if I directly asked a candidate about their grades and their reply was "grades don't matter."

I mean you have a great gig now and you make a lot of money but how many times did the "grades don't matter" method work out for you?



Return to “Legal Employment?

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.