The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[Flarmanarnar]

Does the 3L hiring timeline happen a little slower than 2L? I had what I thought was a on-the-spot CB for a screener I had last week but they've yet to reach out.

Generally, yes - it’s slower but I’m assuming you had an on campus interview, right? If so, it depends on the firm re: 3L CB’s. For Quinn’s 3L OCI process I heard they were really slow (and at some schools nonexistent) regarding giving CB’s. Not sure about other OCI firms though.

[Anonymous User]

Does the 3L hiring timeline happen a little slower than 2L? I had what I thought was a on-the-spot CB for a screener I had last week but they've yet to reach out.

Generally, yes - it’s slower but I’m assuming you had an on campus interview, right? If so, it depends on the firm re: 3L CB’s. For Quinn’s 3L OCI process I heard they were really slow (and at some schools nonexistent) regarding giving CB’s. Not sure about other OCI firms though.

It was at a job fair, so probably along the same lines.

[Anonymous User]

For those of you saying target specific practice areas, how do you go about saying this in a cover letter? Is saying "I am applying for a litigation associate position" too broad (i.e., Should I be more specific and say a practice area within litigation, like "white-collar" position)? Thank you in advance.

[MGH1989]

Took almost a year, but I'm out of the vale. It sounds cliche, but honestly you just have to keep pushing and shooting your shot. I felt hopeless at so many points and this just fell in my lap out of nowhere it seemed liked. If I can get out, I promise anyone can.

[Anonymous User]

I agree. Even if you have to accept an offer that you don't like. Keep interviewing up until right before you need to start if need be until you find something better. I accepting an offer that was terrible and I kept interviewing for another 4 months. Ended up with an insane offer right at the very end and reneged on the earlier sh*tty offer.

[Anonymous User]

Unsure how many still here are seeking public interest positions, but I'll give this a shot to see if anyone has an answer for me.
I applied to LSNYC and received a "conditional offer." I am not entirely sure on what it is conditioned, but I am currently going through what is called the "rostering" process. Had a recent interview-like phone call with a project director, who told me that they would be in touch soon.

Does anyone know if a "conditional offer" is given only to those LSNYC is genuinely going to hire, and if rostering is just more of a formality? Or do they give conditional offers to like 100 people and only finalize offers for 50? Because when I was given the offer initially, I assumed it was more final than perhaps it was.

So, TL;DR, how legit is a "conditional offer" with LSNYC, and what exactly does the rostering process entail?

Thanks so much to anyone who can help! I graduated in May, so fingers crossed for a final offer.

Can I ask which department you got this conditional offer in with LSNYC?

[Anonymous User]

Finally out of the vale!!!!!

Big law in a major market in a niche corporate practice group.

2019 T2 grad with just below median grades. I didn't do great my first year but I compensated that by interning every semester after 1L summer and by participating on journal and clinic. Additionally I took practically every "corporate law" course my school offered: seg reg, m&a, banking regulation, ect.

Ive lurked this forum since before law school so I want this to be an inspiration to anyone that is still in the vale - if i can make it out so can you! Im a first generation college and law student and all through law school I constantly felt like I wasn't good enough or that I would never get a job. Regardless of my pessimism I kept applying to job postings and one finally stuck.

Good luck to everyone and don't give up!!!!

First of all, congratulations! And thank you for the rare beam of hope.

Do you have any suggestions? I'm a 2018 graduate of a top 20 school and also a first generation student and below-median. I incurred the extra $100k of debt by going to a more highly ranked school in hopes that the investment would pan out. It has not, and I'm currently doing pretty un-prestigious state government work.

I have received absolutely zero interviews in BigLaw and am getting about one interview for every hundred or so applications, despite being very geographically open.

Any advice?

[Anonymous User]

I took on 200k in debt to go to a 'prestigious' T14, but here I am a jobless and severely depressed 3L.

[andythefir]

I took on 200k in debt to go to a 'prestigious' T14, but here I am a jobless and severely depressed 3L.

Your school is orienting you to a very narrow band of jobs. If you’re willing to move, you can get a job as an attorney the day you get a bar card.

[Anonymous User]

I took on 200k in debt to go to a 'prestigious' T14, but here I am a jobless and severely depressed 3L.

Same here. I don't know if I'm just unlikeable to big law firms after all those interviews

[andythefir]

I took on 200k in debt to go to a 'prestigious' T14, but here I am a jobless and severely depressed 3L.

Same here. I don't know if I'm just unlikeable to big law firms after all those interviews

If the only two outcomes for you in law school were biglaw and severe depression you should not have gone to law school. There are hundreds of cool jobs that will make a difference and forgive your loans after 10 years, and if you wanted the money instead of the cool job you should have gone to business school.

[ellakb]

Does anyone know if there is an advantage to applying to a job on your school's symplicity vs emailing your materials to the email on their general job posting?

Basically I applied to my dream fellowship a few days ago when it was only listed on the org's website, and now it just got posted on my school's symplicity and has the option of submitting your application through the symplicity form instead of the email from the initial posting, and I'm wondering if I put myself at a disadvantage by applying the more general way.

I feel like it probably doesn't matter, but as a desperate job hunting 3L I am paranoid about such things lol

[Anonymous User]

Others might have a different take on this, but imo it won't hurt you to apply through Symp again, but the better approach might be to e-mail then and ask if they will prefer you to do so.

I had the exact same issue with a firm posting a couple of months ago. I e-mailed the firm contact, asking if they would prefer me to send my application through Symp too. They said, they had my application so there was no need, but I think at worst that meant they probably checked that they indeed had my application. And, I can say for sure that it did not hurt my application.

Does anyone know if there is an advantage to applying to a job on your school's symplicity vs emailing your materials to the email on their general job posting?

Basically I applied to my dream fellowship a few days ago when it was only listed on the org's website, and now it just got posted on my school's symplicity and has the option of submitting your application through the symplicity form instead of the email from the initial posting, and I'm wondering if I put myself at a disadvantage by applying the more general way.

I feel like it probably doesn't matter, but as a desperate job hunting 3L I am paranoid about such things lol

[Gus Fring]

I took on 200k in debt to go to a 'prestigious' T14, but here I am a jobless and severely depressed 3L.

Same here. I don't know if I'm just unlikeable to big law firms after all those interviews

If the only two outcomes for you in law school were biglaw and severe depression you should not have gone to law school. There are hundreds of cool jobs that will make a difference and forgive your loans after 10 years, and if you wanted the money instead of the cool job you should have gone to business school.

Being a public defender or prosecutor isn't a cool job

[Anonymous User]

A few days ago I learned that I failed the UBE. I was hoping that things would be easier once I'm admitted. Now it seems the earliest time (if everything goes well) for me to be licensed would be April 2020. Does anyone have any idea about looking for a job while you haven't passed the bar? I feel that I'm in even shittier position. It's super depressing when you have to study for the bar without anything lining up.

[Anonymous User]

Hello vale readers, I'm sipping on some whiskey and reflecting on my own misfortunes in this unforgiving and treacherous profession of law. After my summer associate gig with biglaw I received a "no-offer" because, as they stated, "there were problems with your writing." I recovered by landing a prestigious clerkship out of law school, and received daily verbal abuse from the deputy clerk to the point of tears nearly every day. When I talked back to her and put her in her place, the judge told me to consider leaving the clerkship early. After the clerkship, I worked for a firm for a while and then I was laid off, they said "we don't have enough work to keep you busy." Worked at another firm for a while and was laid off again, they said "we don't have enough work to keep you busy." Got an offer from a prestigious biglaw firm, only to have that offer rescinded before acceptance because "you asked too many questions." There's no happy endings here, only temporary security until someone decides that you're a liability on their balance sheet and decides to get rid of you. Chances are, people in the vale now will be back soon, just like me. Fuck this profession

[Anonymous User]

Hello vale readers, I'm sipping on some whiskey and reflecting on my own misfortunes in this unforgiving and treacherous profession of law. After my summer associate gig with biglaw I received a "no-offer" because, as they stated, "there were problems with your writing." I recovered by landing a prestigious clerkship out of law school, and received daily verbal abuse from the deputy clerk to the point of tears nearly every day. When I talked back to her and put her in her place, the judge told me to consider leaving the clerkship early. After the clerkship, I worked for a firm for a while and then I was laid off, they said "we don't have enough work to keep you busy." Worked at another firm for a while and was laid off again, they said "we don't have enough work to keep you busy." Got an offer from a prestigious biglaw firm, only to have that offer rescinded before acceptance because "you asked too many questions." There's no happy endings here, only temporary security until someone decides that you're a liability on their balance sheet and decides to get rid of you. Chances are, people in the vale now will be back soon, just like me. Fuck this profession

That's why whenever someone complains to me about getting abused or yelled at work, I'd roll my eyes and say, "be grateful, it means you have a job."

Seriously, I'd be happy to get abused if it pays.

[Anonymous User]

I've been applying for post-grad opportunities since June. I've had a couple of interviews and callbacks. I got dinged twice today. I thought I came really close this week, but it seems I have to wait longer. So sad and broken, but I know I'm gonna have to keep moving forward.

I've been talking about post-grad plans with my SO, who is also in law school, but it's been increasingly hard if there's no stability or we haven't secured our post-grad positions yet.

Can't wait for all of this to be done. Just want to live a life outside of law school.

[ProudLSDad]

My son graduated from law school in 2017 and has been not able to find real work as a lawyer. Now he’s living at home, working in retail, and has quite the student loan bill to pay down. I am not a lawyer (I’m a union journeyman electrician and his mom is a nurse) and I don’t mind floating him for a while but I’d like to see some progress towards getting a law job or having a plan b to pay down the debt through another career.

I was watching The Rainmaker the other day - what are the chances he can find a job like the one Matt Damon takes where you sort of “pay your way” by hanging at the hospital and “signing people up” on personal injury type cases? It’s not exactly what I had mind when he graduated from law school but he’s only working 20 hours a week at his retail job, hanging out at home the rest of the time, and I’m desperate to find ways to motivate him.

I found this site on a google search. I’m concerned because eventually he will age out of our health insurance, I have been paying some of his bills and it is stressing us out a bit. His alma mater has not been helpful in providing resources for job searches, but he did pass the bar. He went to a small private law school in a midwestern state (I’d prefer not to say).

[acr]

My son graduated from law school in 2017 and has been not able to find real work as a lawyer. Now he’s living at home, working in retail, and has quite the student loan bill to pay down. I am not a lawyer (I’m a union journeyman electrician and his mom is a nurse) and I don’t mind floating him for a while but I’d like to see some progress towards getting a law job or having a plan b to pay down the debt through another career.

I was watching The Rainmaker the other day - what are the chances he can find a job like the one Matt Damon takes where you sort of “pay your way” by hanging at the hospital and “signing people up” on personal injury type cases? It’s not exactly what I had mind when he graduated from law school but he’s only working 20 hours a week at his retail job, hanging out at home the rest of the time, and I’m desperate to find ways to motivate him.

I found this site on a google search. I’m concerned because eventually he will age out of our health insurance, I have been paying some of his bills and it is stressing us out a bit. His alma mater has not been helpful in providing resources for job searches, but he did pass the bar. He went to a small private law school in a midwestern state (I’d prefer not to say).

That is a tough situation and it sounds like your son has a long road ahead to finding real work as a lawyer. Is he admitted to the Bar?

There's no chance that he could just "hang around the hospital" and sign people up for personal injury cases. With no legal experience, how would your son win those kind of cases? They're mostly taken on a contingency fee basis and take months to resolve. Would he even have the motivation and confidence to procure clients this way? Doesn't sound like it. And how would he have the resources to fight these cases? Lawyers don't just Google the law and hope for the best; you need research resources, documents, etc. I've seen desperation produce some pretty incredible and miraculous results for people, but it's not like you just go from folding clothes to winning personal injury settlements/judgments that can sustain you.

Even if your son had a more legitimate plan of, say, establishing a trust & estates practice writing wills for elderly people and a strong business drive, it's not like success just happens overnight. It takes entrepreneurial spirit, excellent legal ability, and patience.

If your son wants to find real work as a lawyer, then he needs to get the ball rolling somehow and demonstrate an interest in working in the legal field. Working 20 hours per week in retail won't cut it. He should start building any legal experience he can to show employers that he's serious about his legal career. This could be volunteering at legal clinics, attending CLEs, document review (contract) work, etc. As he gains some legal experience and exposure doors might begin to open up somewhere down the line. He should network during this time as well with contacts in the area. It could be a year-long process to find a "real legal job."

Geographic flexibility and the lowering of expectations is important as well. Not sure where you guys live, but he won't find a cushy big firm gig in competitive markets like Chicago, D.C., etc. He should focus on applying to government and small firm jobs (assuming he has a transferable UBE score) in less desirable legal markets like New Mexico, Alabama, Idaho, etc. just to get his legal career on track. Lots of PD offices in need of new hires in those places, and while I don't necessarily subscribe to the notion sometimes stated on here that they'll hire anyone, there's certainly a chance of getting hired in those places, even if you're desperate. Perhaps those government jobs would even come with public service loan forgiveness, which sometimes happens when a person stays in a qualifying job for 10 years. Depending on the size of the student loan bill, that's sometimes the best option if big law is out the window.

Another career is always a possibility but it's hard to start above 50K in a fresh career, even with a J.D., unless you're STEM undergrad. Getting a so-called "J.D. advantage job" (like consulting) is just as competitive, if not moreso, than a job as an attorney.

[ProudLSDad]

He passed the bar exam but does not yet have a license here in Ohio. I think the problem is one of expectations. On my part, I may have not provided good guidance to him but I didn’t know a lot about law schools and hiring prospects. I graduated from college in 1993 wanting to be a poet and quickly found that I needed a job to live so I enrolled myself in an electrician apprenticeship and was working within three months of graduation. He dreamed of practicing a very niche type of law (most likely influenced from movies/tv) and when that didn’t come to pass he just eventually gave up; and now he’s living at home.

I’ll talk to him about some of these opportunities. Thanks for the help.

[andythefir]

If it were me, I’d tell someone I cared about without a legal job to send a cover letter and resume to literally every DA and PD in every county in the region where they’d like to be, then broaden out to progressively more rural and west regions. The Midwest is one of the most saturated legal markets, so he may need to leave the region to find work.

[juslawschoolthings]

My son graduated from law school in 2017 and has been not able to find real work as a lawyer. Now he’s living at home, working in retail, and has quite the student loan bill to pay down. I am not a lawyer (I’m a union journeyman electrician and his mom is a nurse) and I don’t mind floating him for a while but I’d like to see some progress towards getting a law job or having a plan b to pay down the debt through another career.

I was watching The Rainmaker the other day - what are the chances he can find a job like the one Matt Damon takes where you sort of “pay your way” by hanging at the hospital and “signing people up” on personal injury type cases? It’s not exactly what I had mind when he graduated from law school but he’s only working 20 hours a week at his retail job, hanging out at home the rest of the time, and I’m desperate to find ways to motivate him.

I found this site on a google search. I’m concerned because eventually he will age out of our health insurance, I have been paying some of his bills and it is stressing us out a bit. His alma mater has not been helpful in providing resources for job searches, but he did pass the bar. He went to a small private law school in a midwestern state (I’d prefer not to say).

Let me start by saying I wish your son the absolute best of luck. I can imagine how difficult and heartbreaking this situation is. Everyone who makes it through the rigorous 7 years of education to graduate with a JD deserves at least some type of legal job opportunity, sadly it's just not that easy.

This seems like one of two things: your son is a bit lazy (perhaps instilled by you - you should NOT feel bad about not giving him any guidance - he's an adult with a JD. He should have gone out on his own to figure things out, not expect it from his clearly hard-working but not in legal job parents), or your son is suffering from mental health issues (which is entirely different and very serious). A situation like this can understandably be a breeding ground for depression, anxiety, etc. and it would be worth having your son speak to a therapist if you suspect this. Lack of motivation may stem from these health issues.

Otherwise, I think it may be worth giving him a little nudge to get in motion. It reminds me of a dependency situation with addicts - he has no reason/motivation to hustle right now because his parents house him, pay for insurance, etc. He would benefit greatly from the advice above, such as going to CLEs, networking, doing contract work, or even offering to volunteer as an apprentice with a practicing attorney during his off time.

If he has the drive, motivation, and PATIENCE, he can find eventual success. He just needs to start doing his own research and getting out there.

Best of luck to your family - I hope TLS can kickstart a successful life for your son.

[Anonymous User]

I am a 3L and out of the vale. Keep your chins up. I interviewed probably at 50 places (big firms, small firms, federal and state government) over the past two years. Ranked fairly highly in my class, and had many moments of self-doubt. I found a place that chose me for who I am (ironically after I've been told over and over that fit is so important). It all works out- trust me I did not believe that even two weeks ago.

[Anonymous User]

Congrats and thank you for much-needed encouragement. Mind saying what market? Would be interested to know if I still have hope in any big market...