The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[objctnyrhnr]

any advice for finding biglaw positions 2 months pre graduation? I don't see anything ever on Symplicity - and when things do pop up it's all for people with 1-3 years of experience. (I struck out at OCI because I was too geographically limited, but I have a decent GPA and on law review for a T14 school).

The easier said than done advice is to find a judge who has just been confirmed and Clerk for that judge.

But more broadly, you should be applying to all of these jobs especially with your credentials. 1-3, 2-4 year lateral positions would possibly consider new grad IMO. Definitely worth a shot

[paoding]

No offered in 2L summer job because of firm's financial issue. Depressed, worked like dog last semester. Networked with more than 140 attorneys this semester, interviewed with near 20 firms, and got a big firm offer 1 month away from graduation. Great team in an exciting location - even better than my summer firm! It is still happening. Don't give up.

Background: above median in T14. Summer associate experience . Government internship, judicial internship, and nonprofit work during school year.

If you have similar background as me and you are still looking, please PM me. I may introduce you to some firms that I am still interviewing but I plan to drop the applications.

[QContinuum]

Thanks for sharing your experience & offering to help other TLSers. And CONGRATS on your new job!

[Anonymous User]

No offered in 2L summer job because of firm's financial issue. Depressed, worked like dog last semester. Networked with more than 140 attorneys this semester, interviewed with near 20 firms, and got a big firm offer 1 month away from graduation. Great team in an exciting location - even better than my summer firm! It is still happening. Don't give up.

Background: above median in T14. Summer associate experience . Government internship, judicial internship, and nonprofit work during school year.

If you have similar background as me and you are still looking, please PM me. I may introduce you to some firms that I am still interviewing but I plan to drop the applications.

Hi paoding, congratulations to your new job. I am a 3L from a lower ranked school and I am looking for a post-graduate job right now. Could you share your experience on how to network? I found that there are few jobs posted on my school's symplicity and I am trying to network as much as I can. Could you share your experience on how to turn a networking meeting to an informational interview?

Thank you and congratulations!

[paoding]

No offered in 2L summer job because of firm's financial issue. Depressed, worked like dog last semester. Networked with more than 140 attorneys this semester, interviewed with near 20 firms, and got a big firm offer 1 month away from graduation. Great team in an exciting location - even better than my summer firm! It is still happening. Don't give up.

Background: above median in T14. Summer associate experience . Government internship, judicial internship, and nonprofit work during school year.

If you have similar background as me and you are still looking, please PM me. I may introduce you to some firms that I am still interviewing but I plan to drop the applications.

Hi paoding, congratulations to your new job. I am a 3L from a lower ranked school and I am looking for a post-graduate job right now. Could you share your experience on how to network? I found that there are few jobs posted on my school's symplicity and I am trying to network as much as I can. Could you share your experience on how to turn a networking meeting to an informational interview?

Thank you and congratulations!

Sure thing. I got a fellowship in a nonprofit which is super well connected: they know basically every big firm in their field. I got several interviews and my current job through their network. It is hard to network without anything under your feet, so I would advice you to first land somewhere relevant to what you want to do, even doing nonprofit first. It helps to talk with ppl in you field and make you feel that you are normal and you are one of them. They may also make a call or drop a note for you and it is worth 100 emails you send out.

Second, I applied to every relevant posting in gobiglaw, linkedin, and symplicity. Always find someone in the group to talk before the application if you find the position relevant to your experience so the firm may have a serious look at ur resume. Maybe find someone through linkedin. Find those State Bar events in your field and email every speaker for advice. I did get some leads by emailing State Bar event speakers.

[Anonymous User]

Hey all- Just want to remind you all not to give up hope. I was treated terribly at my last firm and then laid off just before Christmas. I was definitely sinking into a deep depression every time I went on an interview and didn’t hear back.

I networked like crazy for 3-4 months and landed at my dream job. My salary also increased by around 30- 40k.

If I can do it so can all of you. I do have around 4-5 years of experience; however, it’s still very tough out there. Just keep networking and try to stay positive (easier said than done I know).

[Anonymous User]

A 2018 graduate, passed Nov. bar, fully licensed attorney in Texas. Went to a reputable T1 school.

Here are my stats: Really started applying after passing Bar. So from December 2018, to date, have sent out 140 applications. Have gotten about 15 interviews from those applications with small shit law firms, with only one offer, which was contract work, paid on a per hour basis. Rejected the offer because I was more like an independent contractor. Have been declined/not even heard back from the rest of the 14.

I still have not lost hope although I have turned cold showing up to these interviews. I mostly get dinged because I appear clueless/have no work experience (at least that's what I think), who knows what the actual reason can be, for the unconscious can only tatter upon reasons why one gets rejected. In shit law, no one cares about your government internships or law review too apparently. They want hard earned experience. The actual reason for rejection could be more than one. Based off my perception and persona of why I appear clueless arises from the fact that I am a K-JD who still has no real world work experience in any field. I really am not clueless though even though the only real work experience I have is from undergrad, working as a waiter. Take being a waiter for what you will and what it's worth to employers.

Hang in there!

[Anonymous User]

Also, anyone care to share their stats.. or offer some input as to what they think, like I did above?

[lavarman84]

A 2018 graduate, passed Nov. bar, fully licensed attorney in Texas. Went to a reputable T1 school.

Here are my stats: Really started applying after passing Bar. So from December 2018, to date, have sent out 140 applications. Have gotten about 15 interviews from those applications with small shit law firms, with only one offer, which was contract work, paid on a per hour basis. Rejected the offer because I was more like an independent contractor. Have been declined/not even heard back from the rest of the 14.

I still have not lost hope although I have turned cold showing up to these interviews. I mostly get dinged because I appear clueless/have no work experience (at least that's what I think), who knows what the actual reason can be, for the unconscious can only tatter upon reasons why one gets rejected. In shit law, no one cares about your government internships or law review too apparently. They want hard earned experience. The actual reason for rejection could be more than one. Based off my perception and persona of why I appear clueless arises from the fact that I am a K-JD who still has no real world work experience in any field. I really am not clueless though even though the only real work experience I have is from undergrad, working as a waiter. Take being a waiter for what you will and what it's worth to employers.

Hang in there!

Are you applying to law firms or have you also applied for government positions (like ADA, PD, attorney with counties or cities, etc.)? It's tough out there, but I would think with a reputable school and bar passage, you should have an opportunity to land with the government. Even if you don't want to be a prosecutor, getting that trial experience will make you marketable to smaller law firms. I think it would do more for you than working in shit law.

[Anonymous User]

Tbh, most govt jobs are off limits to me at this point because of something I did a few years ago. No criminal record or anything like that but pretty darn close even though it is considered laughable and a minor thing, considered to be a misdemeanor type deal (mostly stupid alpha male behavior if you would) However, even these little things add up when working for govt. they want someone perfect!!!

It’s not a ban forever I bet, although in some prestigious counties it might be (depending on what and how they investigate), but some counties it’s a ban for at least a few more months or a year or so longer. So don’t even bother with govt primarily and if I do, I don’t expect much in return.

If I don’t hear back from govt., I likely assume that’s why.

[lavarman84]

Tbh, most govt jobs are off limits to me at this point because of something I did a few years ago. No criminal record or anything like that but pretty darn close even though it is considered laughable and a minor thing, considered to be a misdemeanor type deal (mostly stupid alpha male behavior if you would) However, even these little things add up when working for govt. they want someone perfect!!!

It’s not a ban forever I bet, although in some prestigious counties it might be (depending on what and how they investigate), but some counties it’s a ban for at least a few more months or a year or so longer. So don’t even bother with govt primarily and if I do, I don’t expect much in return.

I feel ya. Stick with it. You'll land something soon. Getting the bar passage was over half the battle.

[Anonymous User]

Non-t14, no moot/LR, below median gpa/rank, gov't internship and summer associate experience 2L year.

Anyone have similar stats and job success lately?

[Anonymous User]

What do you mean similar stats.? I am the guy that has about 15 interviews and has nothing rolling for me. If anything, I can relate to you. Non-T14 (regional T1 however), but I was right at median, unlike you. At the end of the day, I don't even think rank matters at all for these types of schools, so I'll stick to non T-14. No law review but did have secondary journal. No mock or moot either. Been searching for almost 4 1/2 months now and no luck still. I'm a 2018 graduate and an entry-level attorney, btw. Not networking really does screw you over. There are just too many qualified candidates to pick from. That's what has been going on in my experience. Way too many people apply for Similar postings, which I have been applying to.

Could you elaborate on where you are applying if you don't mind; how many interviews you have gotten; and how many applications you have sent? Also, what market would help if it is not TMI.

Thanks.

[Electricella]

A 2018 graduate, passed Nov. bar, fully licensed attorney in Texas. Went to a reputable T1 school.

Here are my stats: Really started applying after passing Bar. So from December 2018, to date, have sent out 140 applications. Have gotten about 15 interviews from those applications with small shit law firms, with only one offer, which was contract work, paid on a per hour basis. Rejected the offer because I was more like an independent contractor. Have been declined/not even heard back from the rest of the 14.

I still have not lost hope although I have turned cold showing up to these interviews. I mostly get dinged because I appear clueless/have no work experience (at least that's what I think), who knows what the actual reason can be, for the unconscious can only tatter upon reasons why one gets rejected. In shit law, no one cares about your government internships or law review too apparently. They want hard earned experience. The actual reason for rejection could be more than one. Based off my perception and persona of why I appear clueless arises from the fact that I am a K-JD who still has no real world work experience in any field. I really am not clueless though even though the only real work experience I have is from undergrad, working as a waiter. Take being a waiter for what you will and what it's worth to employers.

Hang in there!

Same here, TX bar license since November, started applying after I learned that I passed. Got an offer of a contract work, very little money and not the type of work I want AT ALL, rejected it. Other than that, about 20 interviews since Jan, and nothing. Let's do this! We can do this. Right?...

[Anonymous User]

I am a t20 grad from 2014. Won’t give other details here about my own path, but suffice it to say that I didn’t do that well 1L. As a result...maybe half by choice and half by necessity I took a bit of a road less traveled that certainly took more effort than many of my peers expended.

I remember what the sleepless nights are like, wondering if I made a mistake in doing what I knew I had wanted to pursue since I was 12—law school, wondering why I was underperforming my credentials up to that point so badly. I remember avoiding conversations about jobs etc. I remember refreshing this thread over and over again. I remember waiting for the phone to ring. I remember getting so nervous before interviews that I’d literally throw up. I’d throw up because I couldn’t shake the feeling that this was the ONLY shot I would get and this was literally my only shot to take myself out of the vale. I remember perusing job boards over and over every day. I remember the anxiety inducing cold networking emails. I even remember periodically being uninterested in sex with my very attractive girlfriend because I didn’t feel worthy of...anything. Being a type A person your whole life results in a real crash when you experience a career or academic-related struggle. I look back on that period with pride, now, though—pride because I didn’t give up, because I persevered as hard as it was to get out of bed in the morning.

Anyway by 2018 after an interesting little early career, I was landing multiple BL interviews and eventually landed a V20, and I did this without much geographic flexibility.

You all aren’t alone. The best part about this thread is when Vale-Ers post their own success stories. Don’t give up. You’ll get there.

[Anonymous User]

I am a t20 grad from 2014. Won’t give other details here about my own path, but suffice it to say that I didn’t do that well 1L. As a result...maybe half by choice and half by necessity I took a bit of a road less traveled that certainly took more effort than many of my peers expended.

I remember what the sleepless nights are like, wondering if I made a mistake in doing what I knew I had wanted to pursue since I was 12—law school, wondering why I was underperforming my credentials up to that point so badly. I remember avoiding conversations about jobs etc. I remember refreshing this thread over and over again. I remember waiting for the phone to ring. I remember getting so nervous before interviews that I’d literally throw up. I’d throw up because I couldn’t shake the feeling that this was the ONLY shot I would get and this was literally my only shot to take myself out of the vale. I remember perusing job boards over and over every day. I remember the anxiety inducing cold networking emails. I even remember periodically being uninterested in sex with my very attractive girlfriend because I didn’t feel worthy of...anything. Being a type A person your whole life results in a real crash when you experience a career or academic-related struggle. I look back on that period with pride, now, though—pride because I didn’t give up, because I persevered as hard as it was to get out of bed in the morning.

Anyway by 2018 after an interesting little early career, I was landing multiple BL interviews and eventually landed a V20, and I did this without much geographic flexibility.

You all aren’t alone. The best part about this thread is when Vale-Ers post their own success stories. Don’t give up. You’ll get there.

Thank you for sharing. Yes, I am sticking in there and am the Texas grad. Just got two dings today without even an interview (just a cold approach email method), but oh well because I also got an excellent opportunity as well today. Just applied to it. Am proud of you though.

Same here, TX bar license since November, started applying after I learned that I passed. Got an offer of a contract work, very little money and not the type of work I want AT ALL, rejected it. Other than that, about 20 interviews since Jan, and nothing. Let's do this! We can do this. Right?...

Yes, we can! I'll be rooting for you. A lot of us are similarly situated, including a couple of my friends who went to the same law school who were unable to pass the bar last cycle and sat for February 2019 for a second time. Just tough it out and relax at the end of the day. Work when you can on applying for jobs, but when you feel down, take the day off. You will be working plenty when you get a full-time job.

[Anonymous User]

What do you mean similar stats.? I am the guy that has about 15 interviews and has nothing rolling for me. If anything, I can relate to you. Non-T14 (regional T1 however), but I was right at median, unlike you. At the end of the day, I don't even think rank matters at all for these types of schools, so I'll stick to non T-14. No law review but did have secondary journal. No mock or moot either. Been searching for almost 4 1/2 months now and no luck still. I'm a 2018 graduate and an entry-level attorney, btw. Not networking really does screw you over. There are just too many qualified candidates to pick from. That's what has been going on in my experience. Way too many people apply for Similar postings, which I have been applying to.

Could you elaborate on where you are applying if you don't mind; how many interviews you have gotten; and how many applications you have sent? Also, what market would help if it is not TMI.

Thanks.

I'm sorry that is honestly terrifying. I'm so scared to graduate.

I'm applying for mostly employment/bankruptcy positions/firms in the midwest. I'm applying all over the country but I feel like I have more of an advantage around my area since I'm also at a regional tier 1. I've gotten a handful of interviews, perhaps 1/10 of the applications I send out? And i don't know how many applications I've sent but I'm sure it's less than a hundred. I try but I get depressed from rejections and can go weeks without applying.

I'm just really scared. It seems like I keep hearing stories of law grads not finding jobs and it sounds like my future.

[Anonymous User]

Help! I have a big firm interview next week and I'm 99% sure the only reason I got the interview was because I have some state judicial internship experience in my background. My competitors/classmates have much better credentials (grades/ranks) than me. How do I convince this firm to hire me, their pity interviewee, despite my below average grades?

[nixy]

Firms don’t do pity interviews. If they’re interviewing you, they’re considering hiring you, so don’t go in with the attitude that you don’t have a shot.

[objctnyrhnr]

Help! I have a big firm interview next week and I'm 99% sure the only reason I got the interview was because I have some state judicial internship experience in my background. My competitors/classmates have much better credentials (grades/ranks) than me. How do I convince this firm to hire me, their pity interviewee, despite my below average grades?

Some good advice I once heard is to assume that you are on equal footing with all of the other interviewees right before each respective interview begins. In other words, if there are 5 interviews, they are 20% likely to hire each interviewee before speaking with them. Then, the only thing that could sway the firm’s feelings one way or another is how much they like you when they meet you.

So if you can get into that mindset, you’ll do better than assuming it’s a pity interview.

[Anonymous User]

Help! I have a big firm interview next week and I'm 99% sure the only reason I got the interview was because I have some state judicial internship experience in my background. My competitors/classmates have much better credentials (grades/ranks) than me. How do I convince this firm to hire me, their pity interviewee, despite my below average grades?

Some good advice I once heard is to assume that you are on equal footing with all of the other interviewees right before each respective interview begins. In other words, if there are 5 interviews, they are 20% likely to hire each interviewee before speaking with them. Then, the only thing that could sway the firm’s feelings one way or another is how much they like you when they meet you.

So if you can get into that mindset, you’ll do better than assuming it’s a pity interview.

This is very solid advice. I like this. I never looked at it like this, but this is a better mindset to have than having your present mindset. Because lets say you did not get an interview, you sure as hell would have STILL BEEN saying the same thing to yourself... "it's because my friends have better credentials" and yada yada.. "that's why I did not get the interview..." Now, you got an interview, yet you're still making it seem like "oh, I just got lucky because of the internship... and my friends still have better credentials than me." Listen man, you got the interview because they liked you for you, not your friends, not because you got lucky, not because they had pity on you.

The point is, if you did not get this interview, you would have been upset and probably have said the same thing to yourself that you're saying now. So now when you do have the interview, why complain and say the same thing to yourself? In other words, when you're "down", you complain, but when you're "up," you still complain. You see how irrational this is. Complaining is normal. It's human nature, but you can work on it. Just chill out and go nail this interview. Also, it is not your job to convince anyone to hire you technically. That sounds desperate. "Hire me please and have pity on me" is not something you want to portray at the interview because interviewers can smell that vibe from you. If anything It's a two-way streak, both of you should be interviewing each other to see if they are a right fit for you, and if you are a right fit for them. In this situation, you are choosing to have a negative mindset. You have nothing to worry about. Switch up your mindset, and you are golden bro!

I'm sorry that is honestly terrifying. I'm so scared to graduate.

I'm applying for mostly employment/bankruptcy positions/firms in the midwest. I'm applying all over the country but I feel like I have more of an advantage around my area since I'm also at a regional tier 1. I've gotten a handful of interviews, perhaps 1/10 of the applications I send out? And i don't know how many applications I've sent but I'm sure it's less than a hundred. I try but I get depressed from rejections and can go weeks without applying.

I'm just really scared. It seems like I keep hearing stories of law grads not finding jobs and it sounds like my future.

We have different experiences. I am no way similar to you. Don't let my story scare you. What applies to me may not apply to you. Yes, there is a consensus that the legal market sucks, but we are all unique in our ways. My experiences do not mirror yours. Why compare my life to yours then? For one, I am limited to my home state market. I am applying for a completely different niche than you. You are not limited to a particular state, see what I mean. That is a huge difference technically. All this is to say is that you are an individual of your own. Don't let my stories scare you because they may have no effect on you. Who knows maybe you will find something before you graduate, but to find that job, you will have to keep hustling... now that is one thing, we have similar experiences on. To get a job, you must hustle in today's market. Also. don't be depressed. Just look at it like it's a numbers game and laugh it off at the end of the day. Keep working hard though!

1 interview out of 10 applications!! Dude, you're on fire. That's the average. So, for every 10 applications you send, expect 1 interview. I sent about 150 application, and I got 15 interviews, so that was 10%. Some people will get more than 10% (maybe 15-25%), but it will never be as high as 40 to 50% for most people (meaning you get half the interviews lol so for 100 applications, you got 50 interviews.... rare as hell these days). 1/10 is what you should be expecting when initially starting out, and 1/10 is what it will be normally for everyone regardless of law school rank, class rank, etc... because it really is the average. This improves with experience, class rank, school, etc, but as long as you're 1/10 atm, you're doing great! Granted these are all numbers, individual experiences markets, etc, will vary, but 1/10 is the expected norm if you are really going out there and hustling.

[Anonymous User]

Job searching as a URM non-US citizen and non green card holder has been difficult. I’ve had 4 job offers rescinded once the firms learned of my visa status. Any advice to international JD students job searching in the midwest?

I’m considering sitting for the New York bar as NY firms might be more open to int’l students. I’m currently licensed in the midwest. FWIW 3.0+ gpa, regional tier 1 law school, in house summer experience.

[Anonymous User]

Not sure, how that will work for you. In my state (TX) , you need a green card (at minimum) to even be licensed although they have now made an exception to dreamers because of their uncertain status. Do you have a work visa? I see how having a work visa can still make you unemployable even though you can be a licensed member of the bar. I think Texas may allow work visa.

https://ble.texas.gov/rule02


See Rule 2

[Anonymous User]

Not sure, how that will work for you. In my state (TX) , you need a green card (at minimum) to even be licensed although they have now made an exception to dreamers because of their uncertain status. Do you have a work visa? I see how having a work visa can still make you unemployable even though you can be a licensed member of the bar. I think Texas may allow work visa.

https://ble.texas.gov/rule02


See Rule 2

Thanks for your input. I'm not considering the Texas market but from the link you shared Rule 2(a)(5)(J) states that the applicant must "be otherwise authorized to work lawfully in the United States, including in a period of Optional PracticalTraining". Int'l JD students satisfy this requirement as they are entitled to OPT after the JD program. I'm currently on OPT.

[Anonymous User]

I'm sorry that is honestly terrifying. I'm so scared to graduate.

I'm applying for mostly employment/bankruptcy positions/firms in the midwest. I'm applying all over the country but I feel like I have more of an advantage around my area since I'm also at a regional tier 1. I've gotten a handful of interviews, perhaps 1/10 of the applications I send out? And i don't know how many applications I've sent but I'm sure it's less than a hundred. I try but I get depressed from rejections and can go weeks without applying.

I'm just really scared. It seems like I keep hearing stories of law grads not finding jobs and it sounds like my future.

We have different experiences. I am no way similar to you. Don't let my story scare you. What applies to me may not apply to you. Yes, there is a consensus that the legal market sucks, but we are all unique in our ways. My experiences do not mirror yours. Why compare my life to yours then? For one, I am limited to my home state market. I am applying for a completely different niche than you. You are not limited to a particular state, see what I mean. That is a huge difference technically. All this is to say is that you are an individual of your own. Don't let my stories scare you because they may have no effect on you. Who knows maybe you will find something before you graduate, but to find that job, you will have to keep hustling... now that is one thing, we have similar experiences on. To get a job, you must hustle in today's market. Also. don't be depressed. Just look at it like it's a numbers game and laugh it off at the end of the day. Keep working hard though!

1 interview out of 10 applications!! Dude, you're on fire. That's the average. So, for every 10 applications you send, expect 1 interview. I sent about 150 application, and I got 15 interviews, so that was 10%. Some people will get more than 10% (maybe 15-25%), but it will never be as high as 40 to 50% for most people (meaning you get half the interviews lol so for 100 applications, you got 50 interviews.... rare as hell these days). 1/10 is what you should be expecting when initially starting out, and 1/10 is what it will be normally for everyone regardless of law school rank, class rank, etc... because it really is the average. This improves with experience, class rank, school, etc, but as long as you're 1/10 atm, you're doing great! Granted these are all numbers, individual experiences markets, etc, will vary, but 1/10 is the expected norm if you are really going out there and hustling.[/quote]


This is seriously the nicest thing anyone's said to me about the job search so far. Fuck I hope I can stay as optimistic as you. Thanks man. I hope your job search ends soon, like really if anyone deserves it it's you. Keep the thread updated yeah?