Where do I stand at Penn? Forum

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
r6_philly

Diamond
Posts: 10751
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by r6_philly » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:48 am

Anonymous User wrote:Are you saying LR is mostly (or 100%) writing?
I am not answering you anymore.
Last edited by r6_philly on Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz

Platinum
Posts: 9807
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by rad lulz » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:50 am

Anonymous User wrote:Explain please.

Since law review is said to be in some way connected to the top 10%, how do they know who is in the top 10% (it might be top 15/20% but the same “how do they know” question remains).
I also like to poast anon when express my ignorance.

User avatar
Veyron

Gold
Posts: 3595
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by Veyron » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:51 am

ajaxconstructions wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
ajaxconstructions wrote: Can't you just use a GPA calculator? Or they don't even tell you which classes are worth certain credits etc?
Yes, but different calculators gives different numerical values. Remember LSAT gives 4.33 to a A+ but your school doesn't?
What's the point of this system?!
No lie, Penn hired consultants to help it construct the optimal grading system for biglaw placement. Think of it as opposite Berkeley.

HeavenWood

Gold
Posts: 2890
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by HeavenWood » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:14 am

r6_philly wrote:
dabomb75 wrote:There were a couple of posts in the last 2 years' OCI threads that estimated the following rankings based on GPA:

3.3 = median

3.5 = top 33%

3.7 = top 10%

Not sure exactly how accurate that is, but just eye-balling it it doesn't really seem wrong and gives a good starting place to work from.
I think the median is a bit lower, but that's what I think. I also think the middle 20-25% is probably within 0.1, so finding a median is probably not all that helpful. The individual grades may actually be more important for people with the usual spread of A- to B grades.
I think median hovers closer to a 3.25 (or about 3 B+'s and a B).

User avatar
dpk711

Silver
Posts: 1241
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:24 pm

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by dpk711 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:10 am

HeavenWood wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
I think the median is a bit lower, but that's what I think. I also think the middle 20-25% is probably within 0.1, so finding a median is probably not all that helpful. The individual grades may actually be more important for people with the usual spread of A- to B grades.
I think median hovers closer to a 3.25 (or about 3 B+'s and a B).
If all that is true I think the grade distributions would be more like:

3.3 = slightly above median, top 45%-ish?

3.5 = top 25%

3.7 = top 10%

Want to continue reading?

Register now to search topics and post comments!

Absolutely FREE!


Anonymous User
Posts: 428105
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:54 pm

guys, the question is how do law firms calculate GPAs of penn students, specifically those law firms with grade cutoffs. I think its safe to say that pretty much every firm turns your grades into a number somehow, wouldn't you agree? My guess is they don't consider things like #of credits, especially because this information is very hard for them to get.

Do they just use an LSAC type scale and plug everything in?
A = 4.0
A- = 3.7
B+ = 3.3
B = 3.0
and so on?

User avatar
rayiner

Platinum
Posts: 6145
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by rayiner » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:04 pm

Veyron wrote: No lie, Penn hired consultants to help it construct the optimal grading system for biglaw placement. Think of it as opposite Berkeley.
+1.

Having a good grading system actually helps a lot. When it's unclear what the median is, the "below median" thing loses its sting. As it should--there is little actual difference between someone 5% below the median and someone 5% above the median.

Although I think the "don't compute a GPA" thing is silly. Not as silly as how Harvard computes a GPA out of a H/P system though. That's just ridiculous.

User avatar
OutCold

Bronze
Posts: 482
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:57 pm

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by OutCold » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:09 pm

I really don't think firms are splitting hairs (well, maybe W&C, etc.). You can pretty much glance at a set of grades and make a relatively accurate estimation of where someone stands in the class, especially knowing that the average is in the vicinity of a B+. I doubt they are calculating out a GPA. From that point on, its how well you present yourself in the interview. I personally like GPA better, but the system does force firms to place less emphasis on cutoffs.

HeavenWood

Gold
Posts: 2890
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by HeavenWood » Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:50 am

rayiner wrote: Although I think the "don't compute a GPA" thing is silly. Not as silly as how Harvard computes a GPA out of a H/P system though. That's just ridiculous.
It's not only silly, but incredibly unhelpful when examining grade distributions for firms.

Want to continue reading?

Register for access!

Did I mention it was FREE ?


Anonymous User
Posts: 428105
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:32 pm

Considering all of this, how high up Vault can I go? Where should my bidding be targeted? And what are my reaches and what should my safeties be?

User avatar
Veyron

Gold
Posts: 3595
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by Veyron » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Considering all of this, how high up Vault can I go? Where should my bidding be targeted? And what are my reaches and what should my safeties be?
Your realistic top end is somewhere in the V20. Target all the firms with big classes that come to OCI and pay market.

P.S. you're obsessing way too much about V. Firm quality only has a loose association with rank, these aren't law schools we're talking about.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428105
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:49 pm

Veyron wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Considering all of this, how high up Vault can I go? Where should my bidding be targeted? And what are my reaches and what should my safeties be?
Your realistic top end is somewhere in the V20. Target all the firms with big classes that come to OCI and pay market.

P.S. you're obsessing way too much about V. Firm quality only has a loose association with rank, these aren't law schools we're talking about.
Wow! Top 20? This is surprising but good to hear! I thought medianish at Penn would have a little lower ceiling, though I’ve only just begun researching so that was mostly based on me gut feeling.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428105
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:55 pm

Any shot at Cravath and firms of their ilk? Worth a bid as my ultimate reach?

Register now!

Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.

It's still FREE!


User avatar
Veyron

Gold
Posts: 3595
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by Veyron » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Any shot at Cravath and firms of their ilk? Worth a bid as my ultimate reach?
Very little shot at V10 except for Skadden which isn't actually super selective (see what I mean about rank being silly). Weil too maybe.

And I didn't say that V20 was likely, just possible.

Edit: Poor bastard doesn't even realize that most truly elite firms like Boise or W&C DC aren't even in the V10 or, like Susman, aren't ranked at all.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428105
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:51 pm

Veyron wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Any shot at Cravath and firms of their ilk? Worth a bid as my ultimate reach?
Very little shot at V10 except for Skadden which isn't actually super selective (see what I mean about rank being silly). Weil too maybe.

And I didn't say that V20 was likely, just possible.

Edit: Poor bastard doesn't even realize that most truly elite firms like Boise or W&C DC aren't even in the V10 or, like Susman, aren't ranked at all.
Boise ≠ elite, and is certainly less selective than Cov DC, Wilmer DC, etc. And, I'm not sure if I would toss in a plaintiff's lit boutique (Susman) - they're a very different sort of firm.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428105
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:55 pm

The OP's grades are no higher than median. Not sure why people are saying otherwise. Should be fine for OCI though. - Penn 3L.

User avatar
Veyron

Gold
Posts: 3595
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:50 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by Veyron » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Any shot at Cravath and firms of their ilk? Worth a bid as my ultimate reach?
Very little shot at V10 except for Skadden which isn't actually super selective (see what I mean about rank being silly). Weil too maybe.

And I didn't say that V20 was likely, just possible.

Edit: Poor bastard doesn't even realize that most truly elite firms like Boise or W&C DC aren't even in the V10 or, like Susman, aren't ranked at all.
Boise ≠ elite, and is certainly less selective than Cov DC, Wilmer DC, etc. And, I'm not sure if I would toss in a plaintiff's lit boutique (Susman) - they're a very different sort of firm.
Cov DC and Wilmer DC are also top-notch but to say that Boies is not elite is just insane. Take a quick peek at the grade distribution of the kids they take. If you need further proof, I submit to you:

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/12/associat ... s-cravath/

A selected quote "To sharpen the point even more, we hear that bonuses just for the class of 2010 are averaging around $65,000. That’s $65K at Boies versus $7,500 at Cravath."
Last edited by Veyron on Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:01 am, edited 3 times in total.

Get unlimited access to all forums and topics

Register now!

I'm pretty sure I told you it's FREE...


r6_philly

Diamond
Posts: 10751
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by r6_philly » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:57 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The OP's grades are no higher than median. Not sure why people are saying otherwise. Should be fine for OCI though. - Penn 3L.
How do you know the median, so authoritatively. Not sure you why you are saying otherwise. Not sure why you would wonder out aloud about other people and not offer proof of your own.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428105
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:59 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The OP's grades are no higher than median. Not sure why people are saying otherwise. Should be fine for OCI though. - Penn 3L.
OP is above median.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428105
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:59 pm

r6_philly wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The OP's grades are no higher than median. Not sure why people are saying otherwise. Should be fine for OCI though. - Penn 3L.
How do you know the median, so authoritatively. Not sure you why you are saying otherwise. Not sure why you would wonder out aloud about other people and not offer proof of your own.
Because I know that they curve to a B+ median, and I've seen the grade distributions myself. It isn't rocket science.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428105
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:00 am

Anonymous User wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:The OP's grades are no higher than median. Not sure why people are saying otherwise. Should be fine for OCI though. - Penn 3L.
OP is above median.

No they aren't.

Communicate now with those who not only know what a legal education is, but can offer you worthy advice and commentary as you complete the three most educational, yet challenging years of your law related post graduate life.

Register now, it's still FREE!


Anonymous User
Posts: 428105
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:02 am

-
Last edited by Anonymous User on Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

r6_philly

Diamond
Posts: 10751
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by r6_philly » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:04 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Median is between B+B+B+B+ B+B+B+B+ and B+B+B+B+ B+B+B+B OP has the equivalent of A-B+B+B+ B+B+B+B+
I didn't know 3Ls served as Dean of Registrar.

Anonymous User
Posts: 428105
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:32 am

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:Do they just use an LSAC type scale and plug everything in?
A = 4.0
A- = 3.7
B+ = 3.3
B = 3.0
and so on?
Is this grading scale somewhat accurate for Penn? Is 3.3 median?

r6_philly

Diamond
Posts: 10751
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: Where do I stand at Penn?

Post by r6_philly » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:05 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Because I know that they curve to a B+ median, and I've seen the grade distributions myself. It isn't rocket science.
Grade distribution per class != class distribution. Sorry you can't understand science that's not quite complicated as rocket science.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


Post Reply Post Anonymous Reply  

Return to “Legal Employment”