V15 Partner/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions... Forum

[glitched]

how would you describe your firm's culture and how is it different from or similar to other V15 firms?

[itbdvorm]

When did your involvement with recruiting start?

Maybe end of my first full year? I was heavily present in the summer program as a first year. Did callback interviews from basically day 1. Did OCI starting as a second or third year I think and started to get involved with hiring decisions

[itbdvorm]

how would you describe your firm's culture and how is it different from or similar to other V15 firms?

I'd love to answer this one but I think it could get things a little too specific / identifiable. But I'm a fan.

[Anonymous User]

Is Law Review really as important as it's seeming?

I've been doing OCI recently, and I'm easily in the top 10% of my class in the lower T14. Far enough above the cutoff that statistics would guess at a top 5%. I didn't get an invite to LR, but I'm on a secondary journal. I expected great things at OCI, bidding on Cravath and other top firms, and my callbacks are only a few.

I've talked to others and we're noticing a trend. Top 10%+ LR get a dozen plus callbacks (obviously), but the surprising thing is that top 30% + LR is kicking the shit out of Top 10% + Secondary journal (A friend around the top 30% got the cravath, davis, and simpson callbacks that a few folks like myself did not). Assuming similar personalities (since most of us can carry a conversation and be personable and do our research) do V10,15,20 recruiters really use mandatory LR to weed through resumes?

I always thought it was mostly a thing for academia and clerkships.

[Anonymous User]

How serious is the firm about minority recruiting? Is it just something thrown up on the website to make it seem like it's a bigger concern than it really is?

[itbdvorm]

Is Law Review really as important as it's seeming?

I've been doing OCI recently, and I'm easily in the top 10% of my class in the lower T14. Far enough above the cutoff that statistics would guess at a top 5%. I didn't get an invite to LR, but I'm on a secondary journal. I expected great things at OCI, bidding on Cravath and other top firms, and my callbacks are only a few.

I've talked to others and we're noticing a trend. Top 10%+ LR get a dozen plus callbacks (obviously), but the surprising thing is that top 30% + LR is kicking the shit out of Top 10% + Secondary journal (A friend around the top 30% got the cravath, davis, and simpson callbacks that a few folks like myself did not). Assuming similar personalities (since most of us can carry a conversation and be personable and do our research) do V10,15,20 recruiters really use mandatory LR to weed through resumes?

I always thought it was mostly a thing for academia and clerkships.

Tough call, and depends on the firm. Certainly for me it's a sign that someone can write and/or did something additional to excel. It's possible that certain firms only take LR people from your school as another "grade cut"-type credential. But I'd be more likely to take the kid I liked over the one I didn't in this scenario

[itbdvorm]

How serious is the firm about minority recruiting? Is it just something thrown up on the website to make it seem like it's a bigger concern than it really is?

Serious, but our standards are more important. Diversity's a definite plus though.

[Sentry]

What is the average age of your first year associate class?

No idea. I'd guess an average of 2-3 years out of college work experience, with a lot of straight through, a few 2-4 years off and a very few 5+ years out

To an extent, this spread seems proportionate to the ages of students in law school, but I'm curious: Do firms shy away from older candidates (5+ years out)? If so, is there any way to minimize this issue as an older applicant?

I don't think firms shy away from older candidates, but I do think firms shy away from candidates with wanderlust / confusion about what they want to do with their lives / desire to go save the world. Have a good answer to the "why you went to law school" question and you should be in good shape

What would be a good answer to why law school? Would saying you wanted a profession that does a lot of high-level and intellectually stimulating work suffice?

[Anonymous User]

Why are grades the most important factor in firm recruiting? Law exams test a very narrow subset of skills that are only questionably related to the work environment at a law firm, and are mitigated very much by things like typing speed and subjective grading methods. One ridiculous and inexperienced professor can ruin your entire GPA.

Can people with demonstrated leadership experience and work experience for Biglaw clients in the field of law they want to work in overcome grade cutoffs?

It seems to me from my experience so far that only average performance (median grades) on typing race exams completly overrides everything else you've ever done in your life, even if you go to an upper-level T1 school, i.e. firms won't even look at other attributes on your resume that would eventually help out at a law firm (sales skills, leadership positions, corporate work team experience, knowing exactly what field you want to practice in, knowing you want to do biglaw for as long as you can and not just bounce after three years, etc.). I know that's the way things often work, but I would think real-world experience is more predictive of future success than "performance" in the bubble of academia.

[Anonymous User]

Is Law Review really as important as it's seeming?

I've been doing OCI recently, and I'm easily in the top 10% of my class in the lower T14. Far enough above the cutoff that statistics would guess at a top 5%. I didn't get an invite to LR, but I'm on a secondary journal. I expected great things at OCI, bidding on Cravath and other top firms, and my callbacks are only a few.

I've talked to others and we're noticing a trend. Top 10%+ LR get a dozen plus callbacks (obviously), but the surprising thing is that top 30% + LR is kicking the shit out of Top 10% + Secondary journal (A friend around the top 30% got the cravath, davis, and simpson callbacks that a few folks like myself did not). Assuming similar personalities (since most of us can carry a conversation and be personable and do our research) do V10,15,20 recruiters really use mandatory LR to weed through resumes?

I always thought it was mostly a thing for academia and clerkships.

W/E? Top 20%, secondary, +WE at lower T14 and got Davis, etc.

[itbdvorm]

To an extent, this spread seems proportionate to the ages of students in law school, but I'm curious: Do firms shy away from older candidates (5+ years out)? If so, is there any way to minimize this issue as an older applicant?

I don't think firms shy away from older candidates, but I do think firms shy away from candidates with wanderlust / confusion about what they want to do with their lives / desire to go save the world. Have a good answer to the "why you went to law school" question and you should be in good shape

What would be a good answer to why law school? Would saying you wanted a profession that does a lot of high-level and intellectually stimulating work suffice?

I'll go Potter Stewart and say I know it when I see it. Be honest and true to your reasons. Be purposeful.

[Julio_El_Chavo]

Somewhat unrelated to recruiting: do you think it's harder to become partner as a litigation associate? I've heard corporate associates have an easier time making partner for various reasons.

[itbdvorm]

Why are grades the most important factor in firm recruiting? Law exams test a very narrow subset of skills that are only questionably related to the work environment at a law firm, and are mitigated very much by things like typing speed and subjective grading methods. One ridiculous and inexperienced professor can ruin your entire GPA.

Can people with demonstrated leadership experience and work experience for Biglaw clients in the field of law they want to work in overcome grade cutoffs?

It seems to me from my experience so far that only average performance (median grades) on typing race exams completly overrides everything else you've ever done in your life, even if you go to an upper-level T1 school, i.e. firms won't even look at other attributes on your resume that would eventually help out at a law firm (sales skills, leadership positions, corporate work team experience, knowing exactly what field you want to practice in, knowing you want to do biglaw for as long as you can and not just bounce after three years, etc.). I know that's the way things often work, but I would think real-world experience is more predictive of future success than "performance" in the bubble of academia.

Well, maybe.

But, speaking from my personal experience, I want (and often get) both. The fact is that I get two things out of an interview that I can judge "fairly" based upon my (and my firm's) experiences - your grades and how you come across in my 20 minute snapshot of you. How do I know what skills you really have in your past lives? If your skills were so great and you were so successful, why are you taking 3 years off to go to school instead of sticking with it? How do I know how you got your impressive-sounding past job anyway? How do I know that you're telling the truth about what you want to do at a law firm? You bounced from your prior job to go to law school, how do I know you're not going to bounce from mine?

We hire the best of the best. That's our goal. Are we perfect with our standards? Of course not - there are plenty of extraordinarily successful people (in law firms and otherwise) who didn't do well enough to get hired by us. I saw a former Supreme Court clerk who wouldn't have made our grade cut first year (shocking, I know). But standards help us ensure that, of the pool we're choosing from, we're more likely to choose a better group.

It's possible to wow me and get me to try to seek an exception. But it's not easy. And having been on the other side of the law school exam paper as a TA I'll say this - there were substantial differences that I saw in people's exams. Maybe not every one every time in every class falls into that category (I'm proof of that given my own grades) but I was not surprised about where some of my former students ended up (good and bad).

[Anonymous User]

what do you think about sending thank you e-mails after a callback to all the partners/associates who interviewed you? i had a callback yesterday, and i haven't sent thank you e-mails, and now i am wondering if i should have and if it is too late to do so.....do you view them as annoying in a callback context? expected?

[itbdvorm]

Somewhat unrelated to recruiting: do you think it's harder to become partner as a litigation associate? I've heard corporate associates have an easier time making partner for various reasons.

I think it depends on the firm. But I suspect that, in general, it may be harder, in that corporate associates naturally get the opportunity to develop the expertise / experience people look for from corporate partners (negotiation, drafting, etc.) more often than litigators do (stand-up courtroom experience). I could be wrong.

[itbdvorm]

what do you think about sending thank you e-mails after a callback to all the partners/associates who interviewed you? i had a callback yesterday, and i haven't sent thank you e-mails, and now i am wondering if i should have and if it is too late to do so.....do you view them as annoying in a callback context? expected?

It's a neutral. I've had one e-mail ever that was good enough to potentially change our ultimate decision, and even that one didn't actually do so.

Just read more closely and realized you were referring to callback rather than OCI. Could be slightly more beneficial there as your interviewer probably isn't lumping you into a giant pool. I'd do it quickly though because by T+2 you've probably been judged already or forgotten entirely

[Anonymous User]

If there was an interview that I thought went really well but didn't get a callback from, would it be bad form to follow-up with the interviewer asking for advice/feedback?

[keg411]

How do you view transfers?

On a case by case basis. They need to meet the grade cut at their prior school to have a baseline chance.

What if the prior school is one you don't typically recruit from/have an established cutoff for?

Then they're probably in trouble. We have cutoffs for just about every school I can think of. If it's not one of them you better be top 1-5 in your class and/or something really special.

Any chance you could give an idea of the grade cut-offs? I'm going from a Tier 2 school to a T10 school, and I want to know how much of an uphill battle OCI is going to be before I even step in the room for screeners; especially since my old school did not rank. If this information is too sensitive you can PM me if you want (or just tell me you can't answer it).

[Anonymous User]

What made you pick your firm over the others in the v15?

[itbdvorm]

If there was an interview that I thought went really well but didn't get a callback from, would it be bad form to follow-up with the interviewer asking for advice/feedback?

Hmm. It'd have to go really well for me to not think this was a bad idea. I rarely can remember folks well individually after the fact (and if I do you probably got a callback)

[Anonymous User]

what do you think about sending thank you e-mails after a callback to all the partners/associates who interviewed you? i had a callback yesterday, and i haven't sent thank you e-mails, and now i am wondering if i should have and if it is too late to do so.....do you view them as annoying in a callback context? expected?

It's a neutral. I've had one e-mail ever that was good enough to potentially change our ultimate decision, and even that one didn't actually do so.

Just read more closely and realized you were referring to callback rather than OCI. Could be slightly more beneficial there as your interviewer probably isn't lumping you into a giant pool. I'd do it quickly though because by T+2 you've probably been judged already or forgotten entirely

I'm more worried about not having sent them being a negative. Would you hold that against someone?

[itbdvorm]

Any chance you could give an idea of the grade cut-offs? I'm going from a Tier 2 school to a T10 school, and I want to know how much of an uphill battle OCI is going to be before I even step in the room for screeners; especially since my old school did not rank. If this information is too sensitive you can PM me if you want (or just tell me you can't answer it).

It's actually pretty hard to do. I don't know that many Tier 2 schools with any degree of specificity. I'd guess offhand that if it was a school we interview at and/or have some traditional feeders from, top 5-10%. If not, possibly top 5-10 (again, for us - others may vary)

[itbdvorm]

What made you pick your firm over the others in the v15?

Without getting too specific, practice groups, geography, and people (most important). If relatively equal, quality of people makes all the difference in the world.

[itbdvorm]

what do you think about sending thank you e-mails after a callback to all the partners/associates who interviewed you? i had a callback yesterday, and i haven't sent thank you e-mails, and now i am wondering if i should have and if it is too late to do so.....do you view them as annoying in a callback context? expected?

It's a neutral. I've had one e-mail ever that was good enough to potentially change our ultimate decision, and even that one didn't actually do so.

Just read more closely and realized you were referring to callback rather than OCI. Could be slightly more beneficial there as your interviewer probably isn't lumping you into a giant pool. I'd do it quickly though because by T+2 you've probably been judged already or forgotten entirely

I'm more worried about not having sent them being a negative. Would you hold that against someone?

Nah.

[Anonymous User]

What made you pick your firm over the others in the v15?

Without getting too specific, practice groups, geography, and people (most important). If relatively equal, quality of people makes all the difference in the world.

Do you have any suggestions about questions to ask/things to pay attention to in terms of trying to gauge the true work culture/employee satisfaction of a firm at the callback stage?