How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner? Forum

[A'nold]

5) Externships with a local DAs. In my state, we can argue motions and such after completing three semesters, so I'm pr holding off on externing until spring semester. Would it be worth it to also extern fall semester anyways? I purposely didn't try writing on to any journals so I would have time to pursue the stuff that actually matters to me

Start in the fall so you can get a sense of the job before you start going into court. You'll get a chance to write the motions and watch veteran attorneys argue them, and then you'll be ready to go in the spring. Good call passing on write-on btw.

Actually, come to think of it, I wish I had done this. I'm with seatown12 on this one anon.

[UCLAtransfer]

An ADA gunner question to you guys:

I know that 3L OCI is basically a ghost town for 3L's looking to get biglaw, but what about ADA/PD offices? I would think they'd like to interview 3L's even more than 2L's b/c 3L's could actually meet hiring needs (lol at these offices actually hiring people) and 3L's should theoretically have a lot more experience doing actual prosecution/PD work in the courtroom and the offices could grill us about these experiences and have a supervisor to talk to as a reference. Do any of you know anything about this topic? Thanks.

There were a few southern California DA offices interviewing 3Ls at OCI here. I didn't interview with any, but based on budget issues I would be surprised if they were hiring anyone, haha. Based on my understanding, 3L OCI and hiring former interns/externs/clerks were their primary method of hiring new ADAs. I would imagine this varies widely based on geography, school, and individual office practices, however.

[vanwinkle]

An ADA gunner question to you guys:

I know that 3L OCI is basically a ghost town for 3L's looking to get biglaw, but what about ADA/PD offices? I would think they'd like to interview 3L's even more than 2L's b/c 3L's could actually meet hiring needs (lol at these offices actually hiring people) and 3L's should theoretically have a lot more experience doing actual prosecution/PD work in the courtroom and the offices could grill us about these experiences and have a supervisor to talk to as a reference. Do any of you know anything about this topic? Thanks.

Most PI hiring is done completely differently to BigLaw hiring. PI orgs (including both PDs and DAs) can take (and use) a lot more unpaid interns than they have job openings. As such most 2L hiring is understood as not connected to any specific job offer on graduation. If you work there at some point (be it 2L summer, 1L summer, or a school-year clinic/internship/externship) that will certainly give you an advantage, but you still have to apply through the normal job-hunting process as a 3L like everyone else.

For most of these employers, 3L hiring is the only hiring that involves getting actually hired.

[A'nold]

An ADA gunner question to you guys:

I know that 3L OCI is basically a ghost town for 3L's looking to get biglaw, but what about ADA/PD offices? I would think they'd like to interview 3L's even more than 2L's b/c 3L's could actually meet hiring needs (lol at these offices actually hiring people) and 3L's should theoretically have a lot more experience doing actual prosecution/PD work in the courtroom and the offices could grill us about these experiences and have a supervisor to talk to as a reference. Do any of you know anything about this topic? Thanks.

Most PI hiring is done completely differently to BigLaw hiring. PI orgs (including both PDs and DAs) can take (and use) a lot more unpaid interns than they have job openings. As such most 2L hiring is understood as not connected to any specific job offer on graduation. If you work there at some point (be it 2L summer, 1L summer, or a school-year clinic/internship/externship) that will certainly give you an advantage, but you still have to apply through the normal job-hunting process as a 3L like everyone else.

For most of these employers, 3L hiring is the only hiring that involves getting actually hired.

That's good to know. I thought it seemed unlikely that many DA/PD offices would extend offers after a 2L summer internship. I guess I was just wondering whether there was some kind of 3L OCI for these public sector offices or if it is a mass mailing situation.

[seatown12]

Several PDs attend the EJW fair I referenced earlier. I have to imagine there's a comparable career fair for DAs at an all white male country club somewhere.

[A'nold]

Several PDs attend the EJW fair I referenced earlier. I have to imagine there's a comparable career fair for DAs at an all white male country club somewhere.

A lot of white girls become ADA's too.....

[bemidiji41]

5) Externships with a local DAs. In my state, we can argue motions and such after completing three semesters, so I'm pr holding off on externing until spring semester. Would it be worth it to also extern fall semester anyways? I purposely didn't try writing on to any journals so I would have time to pursue the stuff that actually matters to me

Start in the fall so you can get a sense of the job before you start going into court. You'll get a chance to write the motions and watch veteran attorneys argue them, and then you'll be ready to go in the spring. Good call passing on write-on btw.

Actually, come to think of it, I wish I had done this. I'm with seatown12 on this one anon.

Is forgoing the journals an acceptable move in situations like this or are employers still going to think "Why the f*ck didn't this guy get an a journal?" I've been struggling to do journal apps all week and am really not feeling it. I don't want to be on a journal (at all, actually) and would much rather spend the time doing another internship or something during the year. But I'm still nervous about just stopping the apps and then having to face questions about why I wasn't on journal.

[vanwinkle]

Is forgoing the journals an acceptable move in situations like this or are employers still going to think "Why the f*ck didn't this guy get an a journal?" I've been struggling to do journal apps all week and am really not feeling it. I don't want to be on a journal (at all, actually) and would much rather spend the time doing another internship or something during the year. But I'm still nervous about just stopping the apps and then having to face questions about why I wasn't on journal.

The impression I have is that journals are one way to build cred/experience and it's okay to forgo them if you fill your time with other experience-building projects. Internships, externships, moot court, leadership positions in student orgs, anything that shows you're doing more in law school than just going to class and partying. For PI orgs the real answer in how much it matters varies, but it's not a prerequisite in most places.

I think your answer for why you're not on a journal has to be something like "because I wanted to focus on X, which I thought would {build more practical experience/prepare me better for this type of work/be more aligned with my interests}", but as long as you have a good answer you shouldn't fear the question.

[seatown12]

In my experience no PD office has cared about law review at all, I've never faced a question about not having done it, and everyone I've worked with who did do it wished they hadn't. As far as I can tell it's a waste of time because you just don't need to be that skilled at bluebooking and other mundane bs as a PD.

Clinical experience is to PDs as law review is to firms.

[vanwinkle]

Clinical experience is to PDs as law review is to firms.

This is credited.

[Veyron]

Clinical experience is to PDs as law review is to firms.

This is credited.

Interesting. Is the time commitment comparable?

[vanwinkle]

Clinical experience is to PDs as law review is to firms.

This is credited.

Interesting. Is the time commitment comparable?

Can't say for sure since I haven't done LR. But clinics can have a pretty intense time commitment. I signed up for one last semester that required a minimum of 15 hours per week but I think I ended up averaging around 20. It depends on the clinic, but to really get the most benefit out of a clinic you really need to be putting in enough hours.

[seatown12]

Clinics here typically require 3.5 hrs/credit, and most clinics are 6-8 credits/semester. Publications here get 1 credit/semester and I have no idea how much work is required.

[Veyron]

Clinics here typically require 3.5 hrs/credit, and most clinics are 6-8 credits/semester. Publications here get 1 credit/semester and I have no idea how much work is required.

At Penn they are 4, but that doesn't mean that work is proportionate to credits awarded.

[Borhas]

In my experience no PD office has cared about law review at all, I've never faced a question about not having done it, and everyone I've worked with who did do it wished they hadn't. As far as I can tell it's a waste of time because you just don't need to be that skilled at bluebooking and other mundane bs as a PD.

Clinical experience is to PDs as law review is to firms.

I think I'll just stop working on my writing competition

F Journal work...

I'm already feeling better

[leobowski]

In my experience no PD office has cared about law review at all, I've never faced a question about not having done it, and everyone I've worked with who did do it wished they hadn't. As far as I can tell it's a waste of time because you just don't need to be that skilled at bluebooking and other mundane bs as a PD.

Clinical experience is to PDs as law review is to firms.

Appellate defenders actually do care A LOT about LR, grades, and appellate clerkships. And a relevant publication certainly wouldn't hurt your chances at trial-level public defense. It's just one more thing that shows commitment.

That said, LR is an insane time commitment compared to clinics and externships. Expect to put in at least 100 hours a semester for 1-2 credits.

[A'nold]

In my experience no PD office has cared about law review at all, I've never faced a question about not having done it, and everyone I've worked with who did do it wished they hadn't. As far as I can tell it's a waste of time because you just don't need to be that skilled at bluebooking and other mundane bs as a PD.

Clinical experience is to PDs as law review is to firms.

Appellate defenders actually do care A LOT about LR, grades, and appellate clerkships. And a relevant publication certainly wouldn't hurt your chances at trial-level public defense. It's just one more thing that shows commitment.

That said, LR is an insane time commitment compared to clinics and externships. Expect to put in at least 100 hours a semester for 1-2 credits.

While I know such a job would be intellectually stimulating, if I was planning on becoming a PD I think I'd much rather be on the front lines for awhile where the action is.

[woej0001]

This is precisely what I want to do as well. Academically, I have taken evidence, crim pro 1 (booked it) and 2 (adjudication and "police"), and criminal. I am a lowish level editor on LR and am currently top 10%. I started clerking for a small private firm last fall crushing out motions, interviewing clients from time to time, and sporadically watching court proceedings. I then did the clinic at PD for this past spring in misdemeanor full time for 12 credits. I was more or less the unofficial attorney of record (I did everything from initial contact through trial) for about 60-70 clients at a time and did 5 trials (4 jury and 1 bench) and 5 or 6 major motion hearings. I am now back at my crim firm and taking some summer class. I got in with the misdemeanor chief and he said I can take one of his trials as first chair doing the entire thing about once per month when his rotation comes around. I should be able to get some stuff off a few other misdemeanor attorneys there as well. My school is ranked about #50. As a rising 3L any advice to further this career track?

[A'nold]

This is precisely what I want to do as well. Academically, I have taken evidence, crim pro 1 (booked it) and 2 (adjudication and "police"), and criminal. I am a lowish level editor on LR and am currently top 10%. I started clerking for a small private firm last fall crushing out motions, interviewing clients from time to time, and sporadically watching court proceedings. I then did the clinic at PD for this past spring in misdemeanor full time for 12 credits. I was more or less the unofficial attorney of record (I did everything from initial contact through trial) for about 60-70 clients at a time and did 5 trials (4 jury and 1 bench) and 5 or 6 major motion hearings. I am now back at my crim firm and taking some summer class. I got in with the misdemeanor chief and he said I can take one of his trials as first chair doing the entire thing about once per month when his rotation comes around. I should be able to get some stuff off a few other misdemeanor attorneys there as well. Currently, I am back at the criminal firm and will be RAing for a rather prominent criminal professor at my school in July. My school is ranked about #50. As a rising 3L any advice to further this career track?

Nice.

Edit to take out guess as to which professor.

[jkay]

12 credit full time clinic = awesome.

I fully plan on doing the public defender clinic at my school but I can't do it until 3L year (well, I could do it 2L summer if I wanted to give up my firm job), and it's only 4 credits.

As for advice, good luck finding anyone who can help. Sounds like you are killing it and doing far better than most.

[Anonymous User]

I'm currently interning at a well-regarded PD office. I've also volunteered for a DA office in the past (albeit for a week over a break). I know having a DA internship and then applying to the PD is rough but I've heard PD to DA is much more doable. Will my internship help me at all in DA interviews or would this be an uphill battle? Also how bad is waiting to do Trial Advocacy as a 3L/clinics assuming I did moot court and crim/evidence related coursework 2L?

[Gecko of Doom]

.

[2LLLL]

At my school clinics seem to be about an equivalent time commitment to 2L LR. However, the time commitment from a clinic will likely be spread more evenly across the semester, while LR will be in 2-3 marathon sessions when you have source pulls.

Also, does anyone know specifically about appellate level hiring? Is entry level hiring done for crim appellate divisions (more likely on the PD side) or is it all for experienced attorneys? I published a note on a 4th amendment topic, and appellate level PD work is something I could see myself doing either straight out of law school or (more likely) after a few years in private practice. Does anyone know specifically about appellate hiring?

[Torvon]

So any recommendations on how formal I should dress for the first day at a USAO?

[Tanicius]

So any recommendations on how formal I should dress for the first day at a USAO?

New life lesson brah. Always dress business professional on the first day, and if it turns out they're all biz cas, just take off your tie and jacket.