shitlaw salaries? Forum

[bk1]

If we define shitlaw as the bottom barrel of starting legal salaries then there are two main ranges for shitlaw:

Part Time/Doc Review/Contract Attorney - This can be as bad as 15-30/hr.

Small Firm - This tends to be in the 30-60k/year range.

[Naked Dude]

A lot of people make fun of personal injury lawyers, but personal injury is far more profitable than most other areas of law. If you say to yourself, "I want to have as much money as possible saved in 5 years," then you would be foolhardy to go into any other area of law.

The only other area of law that is as profitable as this is class actions.

There are a few other areas, but they are mainly performed by big firms - which means, you will make your salary, but all of the additional money you make goes to the firm.

Yeah but how often do you get a franchise case that makes you bank? John Edwards' firm already had the contacts when he came in, but it might be a while before you see seven-figure cases. I worked on the opposite side of med-mal/PI (defense, duh), but not as a law student obviously. There was one tens of millions of dollars class action that almost materialized once (before I came), but 99% of the stuff I saw was 5 figure suits (sometimes 6). It seems like PI is crowded, and most cases are quick 10 grand smash and grabs (which is still not bad if you do a lot). But those million dollar cases, good luck getting those.

[romothesavior]

If we define shitlaw as the bottom barrel of starting legal salaries then there are two main ranges for shitlaw:

Part Time/Doc Review/Contract Attorney - This can be as bad as 15-30/hr.

Small Firm - This tends to be in the 30-60k/year range.

I dunno, 50-60k would be a pretty decent starting salary. There are a lot of 3Ls at T1s right now who would lop of a testicle to be paid 50-60k, and no one would call it shitlaw.

[bk1]

If we define shitlaw as the bottom barrel of starting legal salaries then there are two main ranges for shitlaw:

Part Time/Doc Review/Contract Attorney - This can be as bad as 15-30/hr.

Small Firm - This tends to be in the 30-60k/year range.

I dunno, 50-60k would be a pretty decent starting salary. There are a lot of 3Ls at T1s right now who would lop of a testicle to be paid 50-60k, and no one would call it shitlaw.

I made the range broad as per the lower peak in NALP's 2009 bimodal chart (http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib).

50-60k is barely cutting it with loan repayments in a high CoA area (NYC/DC/SF/etc). I'm not saying it's awful, but I think in those areas that kind of salary would definitely be part of the bottom rung.

I think 60k is pretty good but I felt weird as classifying the range as 30-50k when looking at the bimodal chart that extends to around 60k for the lower mode.

[ResolutePear]

If we define shitlaw as the bottom barrel of starting legal salaries then there are two main ranges for shitlaw:

Part Time/Doc Review/Contract Attorney - This can be as bad as 15-30/hr.

Small Firm - This tends to be in the 30-60k/year range.

I dunno, 50-60k would be a pretty decent starting salary. There are a lot of 3Ls at T1s right now who would lop of a testicle to be paid 50-60k, and no one would call it shitlaw.

I made the range broad as per the lower peak in NALP's 2009 bimodal chart (http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib).

50-60k is barely cutting it with loan repayments in a high CoA area (NYC/DC/SF/etc). I'm not saying it's awful, but I think in those areas that kind of salary would definitely be part of the bottom rung.

I think 60k is pretty good but I felt weird as classifying the range as 30-50k when looking at the bimodal chart that extends to around 60k for the lower mode.

The thing with 50-60k is.. There are plenty of ways to get there without the law school debt. Fed. employees is one. Accounting and Engineering are a couple others.

And if you're hitting "shitlaw," your conceptions for the love of law have already broken down.

[bk1]

The thing with 50-60k is.. There are plenty of ways to get there without the law school debt. Fed. employees is one. Accounting and Engineering are a couple others.

And if you're hitting "shitlaw," your conceptions for the love of law have already broken down.

I guess I interpreted the OP's question as "smalllaw salaries" as opposed to "shitlaw salaries," because I think that is the more pertinent question.

And it's not like biglaw lawyers necessarily have a love for the law that hasn't broken down either.

[ResolutePear]

The thing with 50-60k is.. There are plenty of ways to get there without the law school debt. Fed. employees is one. Accounting and Engineering are a couple others.

And if you're hitting "shitlaw," your conceptions for the love of law have already broken down.

I guess I interpreted the OP's question as "smalllaw salaries" as opposed to "shitlaw salaries," because I think that is the more pertinent question.

And it's not like biglaw lawyers necessarily have a love for the law that hasn't broken down either.

While I agree with that-

I think it's much more likely to have an above-average quality of life and love the law than to have a below-average quality of life and love the law.

[Younger Abstention]

Shitlaw is a term that originated on auto admit. It means nothing special except small, non-prestigious law firms.

[pjo]

If we define shitlaw as the bottom barrel of starting legal salaries then there are two main ranges for shitlaw:

Part Time/Doc Review/Contract Attorney - This can be as bad as 15-30/hr.

Small Firm - This tends to be in the 30-60k/year range.

I dunno, 50-60k would be a pretty decent starting salary. There are a lot of 3Ls at T1s right now who would lop of a testicle to be paid 50-60k, and no one would call it shitlaw.

I made the range broad as per the lower peak in NALP's 2009 bimodal chart (http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib).

50-60k is barely cutting it with loan repayments in a high CoA area (NYC/DC/SF/etc). I'm not saying it's awful, but I think in those areas that kind of salary would definitely be part of the bottom rung.

I think 60k is pretty good but I felt weird as classifying the range as 30-50k when looking at the bimodal chart that extends to around 60k for the lower mode.

The thing with 50-60k is.. There are plenty of ways to get there without the law school debt. Fed. employees is one. Accounting and Engineering are a couple others.

And if you're hitting "shitlaw," your conceptions for the love of law have already broken down.

IDK, I have to disagree with you here. The whole point of mine, and others’ posts were that sometimes personal injury (almost always perceived at shitlaw), really is a decent gig. Sure, you could make that salary doing the other things you said but 1. Others like myself may have no interest in accounting, engineering, nursing etc. and 2. If you get in at a good shop (easier said than done, I know) you are still a practicing attorney doing real attorney work (probably even more so than a first year associate at a Biglaw firm). Also of note, those other jobs that start at 45-50k very often have caps on the realistic potential of how much you can make. From what I’ve seen, most accountants and engineers top out at 75k even though they start at 50k. This isn’t true with PI, where you may start at 50k or lower, but depending on how percentages of case awards are divided, your future salary is technically limitless. I was a case assistant at a personal injury firm throughout college. This place definitely had the stronghold on the area (as you’ll find usually there are one or two that get the best cases). Everyone there was genuinely happy, and it was rare that anyone worked past 5. Also, the client’s actually were very grateful for your help, something that I've heard is the exact opposite in biglaw. Often the clients were “down on their luck” and it was cool to “fight for the little guy” against the bigger organizations. I’ll never forget one case where we represented this old husband and wife, very nice ppl who had been wronged.. They ended up being award 1.2million in trial. As soon as it finished the lawyer turned to them and said “how does it feel to be millionaires?” They just started to cry. Sure, sometimes you get crappy clients but for the most part, the clients really respect the lawyers and are thankful for their help. Just something to think about.

[gwuorbust]

everyone, what state do you think has the least saturation of PI lawyers?

I feel FL (where I'm from) is really saturated. I think my best ability will be to bring in clients, so I'd consider PI practice. . .

[keg411]

everyone, what state do you think has the least saturation of PI lawyers?

I feel FL (where I'm from) is really saturated. I think my best ability will be to bring in clients, so I'd consider PI practice. . .

There are a lot of PI lawyers everywhere. Also, PI can be seriously varied (from Products Liability/MedMal all the way down to slip-and-falls and more minor cases that don't bring in the $$$; and can go from "MidLaw" to Solos, or from "prestigious and $$$$-making" to "shitlaw factory"). Your best bet is to talk to attorneys who practice in the area you want to be and get an idea of which firms are "reputable" or good to start out working for.

[Rooney]

personal injury is far more profitable than most other areas of law. If you say to yourself, "I want to have as much money as possible saved in 5 years," then you would be foolhardy to go into any other area of law.

Yeah... I don't think so. While the field in general might be profitable, it is damn hard to make a lot of money in your first few years out of law school. It's all about marketing, and the clients are going to go to firms they or their friends have used in the past and ones which advertise heavily.

Might you get a job for one of those firms? Perhaps. However, they are going to pay you a modest salary and only give you a small portion of the firm's cut of your settlements, if any at all, at least until you prove you are really good at it or bring business in the door. Also, the profitability varies greatly state by state. Tort reform runs the gamut in this country, and will have a huge impact on whether personal injury law is profitable or not in a given area.

Tort reform should only worry firms that do medmal cases. Nothing in that affects punitive damages, bad faith or other parts of PI litigation dealing with MVAs, WC or premise liability cases.

Are you kidding?? No fault and limited tort statutes vary from state to state, as do the judicial interpretation of them. This is a HUGE factor in MVA cases, as in some areas it completely bars recovery for plaintiffs unless their injury falls into certain categories or is deemed sufficiently serious. Similarly, in some states, WC regulations heavily favor the insurers, making it very easy for the WC carriers to cut off treatment. Additionally, in some areas there is no recovery on WC claims for anything except for actual medical costs and wages, which makes it difficult for attorneys to take on the case. This is not to mention that very conservative juries in some areas will preclude lawyers from opening shop there. Premise liability is not the subject of much tort reform, but that is going to be a minority of most PI shops' work.

Looking back at that, I meant to say in GA. And about 30% of our cases are premise cases.In two years I've never seen a single client whose recovery was barred due to their injuries not being in a certain "category" or not being "sufficiently serious". I assume this isn't the case in all other states then.

[Rooney]

[quote="pjo"]
IDK, I have to disagree with you here. The whole point of mine, and others’ posts were that sometimes personal injury (almost always perceived at shitlaw), really is a decent gig. Sure, you could make that salary doing the other things you said but 1. Others like myself may have no interest in accounting, engineering, nursing etc. and 2. If you get in at a good shop (easier said than done, I know) you are still a practicing attorney doing real attorney work (probably even more so than a first year associate at a Biglaw firm). Also of note, those other jobs that start at 45-50k very often have caps on the realistic potential of how much you can make. From what I’ve seen, most accountants and engineers top out at 75k even though they start at 50k. This isn’t true with PI, where you may start at 50k or lower, but depending on how percentages of case awards are divided, your future salary is technically limitless. I was a case assistant at a personal injury firm throughout college. This place definitely had the stronghold on the area (as you’ll find usually there are one or two that get the best cases). Everyone there was genuinely happy, and it was rare that anyone worked past 5. Also, the client’s actually were very grateful for your help, something that I've heard is the exact opposite in biglaw. Often the clients were “down on their luck” and it was cool to “fight for the little guy” against the bigger organizations. I’ll never forget one case where we represented this old husband and wife, very nice ppl who had been wronged.. They ended up being award 1.2million in trial. As soon as it finished the lawyer turned to them and said “how does it feel to be millionaires?” They just started to cry. Sure, sometimes you get crappy clients but for the most part, the clients really respect the lawyers and are thankful for their help. Just something to think about.[/quote]

+1

[Naked Dude]

everyone, what state do you think has the least saturation of PI lawyers?

I feel FL (where I'm from) is really saturated. I think my best ability will be to bring in clients, so I'd consider PI practice. . .

FL is saturated for a reason. Lots of elderly people, lots and lots of doctors. In South Florida, where I worked for a firm-inadequate security liability (night clubs, hotels, cruise ships) is a growing part of civil litigation. Really great place for med mal (according to doctors in my family-LOL) and I know some people from the U who are doing products liability type stuff. It's true that it's saturated, but that doesn't mean move to Missoula. I would hazard a guess that with the way the PI field is right now (overcrowded), any market worth being in is crowded. There's business to be had in Florida, I would try to find work at a successful shop. Trying to strike out on your own right away seems arrogant and risky...but I don't know. The ceiling is theoretically limitless, but for every John Edwards who makes a $60 million dollar fortune, I'm sure you've got guys getting 5K settlements for slip and falls, buying ACCIDENTO? ads on bus stop benches, and suing restaurants for improperly serving artichokes (lol). Again, I'm not a law student, but I worked on the defense side of this stuff for a firm, and a lot of it is really lowball 5 and low 6 figure stuff. If you get a job with a solid firm with partners who make bank (like Ferraro in Miami, knew a law student who worked there briefly http://www.ferrarolaw.com/) you can do well. The aforementioned firm is one that makes it rain. But I think it's important to manage expectations and figure out which are the outliers. Shit, if you can work for a firm like that that regularly gets multimillion dollar judgments, jump at the opportunity, but that shit don't fall out of the sky.

[InvictusFortis]

I’ll never forget one case where we represented this old husband and wife, very nice ppl who had been wronged.. They ended up being award 1.2million in trial. As soon as it finished the lawyer turned to them and said “how does it feel to be millionaires?” They just started to cry. Sure, sometimes you get crappy clients but for the most part, the clients really respect the lawyers and are thankful for their help. Just something to think about.

The lawyer should have asked them how it felt to be millionaires for the couple of days before he took his 40% cut.

[Naked Dude]

...

[Naked Dude]

I’ll never forget one case where we represented this old husband and wife, very nice ppl who had been wronged.. They ended up being award 1.2million in trial. As soon as it finished the lawyer turned to them and said “how does it feel to be millionaires?” They just started to cry. Sure, sometimes you get crappy clients but for the most part, the clients really respect the lawyers and are thankful for their help. Just something to think about.

The lawyer should have asked them how it felt to be millionaires for the couple of days before he took his 40% cut.

Hahaha. Yeah as the old joke goes--everyone hates a slimy lawyer...until they need one.

That said, if you can see yourself being fulfilled by PI then I daresay you'd find fulfillment in any area of the law.

Also-was 1.2 million the jury award or what the judge knocked it down to?

[Rooney]

everyone, what state do you think has the least saturation of PI lawyers?

I feel FL (where I'm from) is really saturated. I think my best ability will be to bring in clients, so I'd consider PI practice. . .

FL is saturated for a reason. Lots of elderly people, lots and lots of doctors. In South Florida, where I worked for a firm-inadequate security liability (night clubs, hotels, cruise ships) is a growing part of civil litigation. Really great place for med mal (according to doctors in my family-LOL) and I know some people from the U who are doing products liability type stuff. It's true that it's saturated, but that doesn't mean move to Missoula. I would hazard a guess that with the way the PI field is right now (overcrowded), any market worth being in is crowded. There's business to be had in Florida, I would try to find work at a successful shop. Trying to strike out on your own right away seems arrogant and risky...but I don't know. The ceiling is theoretically limitless, but for every John Edwards who makes a $60 million dollar fortune, I'm sure you've got guys getting 5K settlements for slip and falls, buying ACCIDENTO? ads on bus stop benches, and suing restaurants for improperly serving artichokes (lol). Again, I'm not a law student, but I worked on the defense side of this stuff for a firm, and a lot of it is really lowball 5 and low 6 figure stuff. If you get a job with a solid firm with partners who make bank (like Ferraro in Miami, knew a law student who worked there briefly http://www.ferrarolaw.com/) you can do well. The aforementioned firm is one that makes it rain. But I think it's important to manage expectations and figure out which are the outliers. Shit, if you can work for a firm like that that regularly gets multimillion dollar judgments, jump at the opportunity, but that shit don't fall out of the sky.

Literally LOL

[pjo]

I’ll never forget one case where we represented this old husband and wife, very nice ppl who had been wronged.. They ended up being award 1.2million in trial. As soon as it finished the lawyer turned to them and said “how does it feel to be millionaires?” They just started to cry. Sure, sometimes you get crappy clients but for the most part, the clients really respect the lawyers and are thankful for their help. Just something to think about.

The lawyer should have asked them how it felt to be millionaires for the couple of days before he took his 40% cut.

Hahaha. Yeah as the old joke goes--everyone hates a slimy lawyer...until they need one.

That said, if you can see yourself being fulfilled by PI then I daresay you'd find fulfillment in any area of the law.

Also-was 1.2 million the jury award or what the judge knocked it down to?

I'm not sure, but I know 1.2 million was the final amount. And to the other poster, I def. had to lol at that, very true That was the first thing that came to my mind when I heard him say it. Still though, a windfall of $720,000 is pretty damn good. That 1.2milllion wasn't even the largest award though during my 5 years there. Every year we had one case that broke or came close to the million dollar mark. The largest one was $15.4 million. O, and I should mention that this firm isn't in a big city at all, which means those figures are even larger than they appear.

@ gwuorbust: most places are saturated with PI attorneys, the key is finding the one or two firms that clearly take on the better cases. This isn't an easy task. The firm I worked for didn't even have a martindale hubble account. Try to see where the attorneys at the firm went to school and how they did there. Most of the attorneys at my old firm went to T2's but they were on law review. A couple of them actually worked biglaw at one point. They're doing PI because they WANT to, not because they HAVE to, which isn't the case for the majority of attorneys in PI. I think that makes a big difference in how the firm operates and whether it is legit or falls into the shitlaw category. I think it also helps if you're in your home town, because at the PI level, ppl tend to go to the "name they know" rather than the guy with top credentials.

[danquayle]

Small firms and solo practitioners are just like any other start up or entrepreneur... most fail, but if you succeed you own all the rewards and can become fantastically wealthy. One of the rules I generally accept is that ownership is the only way to really become wealthy in this world. With regards to law, the only way to do that is to start up your own firm, or slug it out for long enough to become an equity partner.

Small firms are just like any other small business, you trade security/initial income for ownership.

[Naked Dude]

I’ll never forget one case where we represented this old husband and wife, very nice ppl who had been wronged.. They ended up being award 1.2million in trial. As soon as it finished the lawyer turned to them and said “how does it feel to be millionaires?” They just started to cry. Sure, sometimes you get crappy clients but for the most part, the clients really respect the lawyers and are thankful for their help. Just something to think about.

The lawyer should have asked them how it felt to be millionaires for the couple of days before he took his 40% cut.

Hahaha. Yeah as the old joke goes--everyone hates a slimy lawyer...until they need one.

That said, if you can see yourself being fulfilled by PI then I daresay you'd find fulfillment in any area of the law.

Also-was 1.2 million the jury award or what the judge knocked it down to?

I'm not sure, but I know 1.2 million was the final amount. And to the other poster, I def. had to lol at that, very true That was the first thing that came to my mind when I heard him say it. Still though, a windfall of $720,000 is pretty damn good. That 1.2milllion wasn't even the largest award though during my 5 years there. Every year we had one case that broke or came close to the million dollar mark. The largest one was $15.4 million. O, and I should mention that this firm isn't in a big city at all, which means those figures are even larger than they appear.

@ gwuorbust: most places are saturated with PI attorneys, the key is finding the one or two firms that clearly take on the better cases. This isn't an easy task. The firm I worked for didn't even have a martindale hubble account. Try to see where the attorneys at the firm went to school and how they did there. Most of the attorneys at my old firm went to T2's but they were on law review. A couple of them actually worked biglaw at one point. They're doing PI because they WANT to, not because they HAVE to, which isn't the case for the majority of attorneys in PI. I think that makes a big difference in how the firm operates and whether it is legit or falls into the shitlaw category. I think it also helps if you're in your home town, because at the PI level, ppl tend to go to the "name they know" rather than the guy with top credentials.

Congratulations on your success. I admittedly have a smaller vantage point and limited experience. It just absolutely astounds me to see so many bitter realists when it comes to T14 or bust or keep debt low mentality (which is a GOOD thing, I agree with it), then turn around and say there's so much money in PI, no ceiling, blahblahblah. Technically true, but I don't see the same cautious realism being applied. Not my first choice, but I imagine working for contingency as opposed to retainer and winning a lot of money in court of via settlement has to produce a great rush. Something I will consider.

The ownership thing is too true. It doesn't matter your education or experience level, it's the business owners who make the real money.

[pjo]

Congratulations on your success. I admittedly have a smaller vantage point and limited experience. It just absolutely astounds me to see so many bitter realists when it comes to T14 or bust or keep debt low mentality (which is a GOOD thing, I agree with it), then turn around and say there's so much money in PI, no ceiling, blahblahblah. Technically true, but I don't see the same cautious realism being applied. Not my first choice, but I imagine working for contingency as opposed to retainer and winning a lot of money in court of via settlement has to produce a great rush. Something I will consider.

The ownership thing is too true. It doesn't matter your education or experience level, it's the business owners who make the real money.

Yeah, I mean I also should have prefaced with: I'll be going to a T14 and I came to that conclusion from the advice of the principal of the firm I worked at. He actually offered me a job at his firm when I graduate and it's a free standing offer, so it's nice that if things don't pan out I could always fall back on it. Working at the firm was a really good experience, but I think I'd just like to try something else. His advice to me was always "go big" (re: school, firm etc.) because in his mind, you can always size down. In law school, he and his friend were on LR and they both worked biglaw after graduation. My boss left after two years, started his firm in BFE and has been unimaginably successful (easily the wealthiest guy in the county). His friend stayed in biglaw, and is now a partner at a V100 in NYC, so also very successful. I think what it comes down to is, and this may have been hit on indirectly, working biglaw will guarantee you can be wealthy. It's pretty standard how much you'll be making with the lockstep etc., but with that standardization you're going to have a cap on what you realistically can make. With PI, you have a much smaller chance of making Biglaw type of money, but the limited amount of ppl that do make it in PI likely make more than their Biglaw counterparts and have a much better QOL.

[mamun_tech]

Certainly helpful for me and other readers also as I am finding so many good comments here.

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[Anonymous User]

I'll be making 50k next year. Firm didn't pay for BarBri or state bar fees either. No anything. I also go to a T6.

[JPrezy87]

I temped for a 1 person PI lawyer last year. He was pulling in ~$25M/year. His secretary was getting $200k/year. FT paralegal was making $150k at 23 years old. Small firms can be very lucrative if you do it right.

One PI Lawyer pulling in $ 25 M a year? And you wonder why prices are going up