Seattle University Class of 2012 Forum

[cmaho9qy]

has anyone heard about job prospects at seattle u? i've heard only top 25% have good job prospects. and that was in a good economy. anyone else heard anything/considered this in attending seattle u?

Yup. The long and the short of it is this: I want to live in Seattle for the rest of my life, and I didn't get into elite schools or UW. Seattle U is the best choice available for what I want to do. I'm also lucky enough to have some pretty good networks in place already, both locally and nationally.

Makes sense to me.

It doesn't make sense to me. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from going to Seattle U, obviously you've made up your mind, but just because you want to do something doesn't mean you'll actually get a job doing it. Maybe if you can't get into UW or the elite schools, you shouldn't be in law school? It's not like there is a massive lawyer shortage giving you the chance to single-handedly save the day.

150K is a lot to pay for a 25% chance at a job paying 50K.

The thing I heard from Seattle U that puzzled me was the emphasis on "Social Justice". If you want to do social justice, join the Peace Corps or Americorps, it's a lot cheaper. Or volunteer after work.

I'm pretty sure you are posting on a board titled "Seattle University Class of 2012." Meaning... we are in the class. We've already made up our minds, for the most part. If you have a legitimate question and are actually considering going here - that's one thing, but I would say that at this point everyone who has decided to attend law school (or pursue any other career path that tends to require massive loans, for that matter) anywhere at all has considered the pros and cons and weighed the risks extensively (and if they haven't then your unfriendly prodding is certainly not going to help them see the logical light). If you don't want to go to a school where social justice is touted, then don't go - clearly it's not the right fit for you. Peacecorps vs. Law school? In this particular case, social justice is about the only thing that they have in common. That doesn't make one a reasonable alternative to the other.

You're also assuming that everyone who has elected to attend SU is going to be paying $150k to do so. In fact, it seems that most of us have received decent scholarships and will have much less than $150k in debt at the end of three years.

Finally, it's not exactly fair to say that you'll have a 25% "chance" of being gainfully employed upon graduation. I'm going to bust my ass in law school and I fully intend to be in the top 25% of the class (to keep my scholarship as well as to help ensure the acquisition of a GOOD job at the end of it all). It's not like we're playing black jack here.

And anyway, Marmot only said that this was the best option for what HE wants to do... he did not claim that it was the best option for everyone.

[PhantaManta]

The 25% thing was likely pulled out of the posters ass anyway. Either way, it is clearly false. Obviously, some % of Seattle U grads make substantially more than $50,000, even if it is a minute %. There is absolutely no data anywhere that shows anything close to the claim that only 25% of SU graduates are able to get jobs in the 50k range.

[jjones78]

150K is a lot to pay for a 25% chance at a job paying 50K.

The thing I heard from Seattle U that puzzled me was the emphasis on "Social Justice". If you want to do social justice, join the Peace Corps or Americorps, it's a lot cheaper. Or volunteer after work.

Wow. You're an elitist asshole who can't see outside their own narrow view of the world, aren't you? Why don't you fuck off? Kthx, bye.

Why the defensiveness? My "narrow world view" has been gathered by talking to working attorneys who attended Seattle U as well as other schools and internet sources about the legal job market. I don't think most students going to Tier 2 schools know the realities of the job market. Have you noticed that there are large layoffs in the legal industry?

http://lawshucks.com/layoff-tracker/

4,500 attorney jobs lost since January 1, 2008. Plus the current crop of 2009, 2010, and 2011 Tier 1 students who will be looking for jobs. Law is a prestige-based profession, and those students who went to better schools will be given the opportunities before lesser schools.

So you 'heard' you only have a 25% chance to make 50k? So where did you 'hear' this?

Talked to people to went to Seattle U, some who've graduated and some who've dropped out after one year.

This is just a Public Service Announcement for people on the fence. If you're already committed, good luck to you. Besides not everyone here is committed, you've still got until June or August to change your mind.

It's not like we're playing black jack here.

That's actually a really good comparison. Not only that, you are gambling on borrowed money, which distorts the value of it to you. Sure you can work hard and hope you are in the top 25%, but you can't guarantee it, and I've heard most tier 2 law schools hand out scholarships to the top 50% of the incoming class, so you do the math.

I'm actually one of those people who thinks that not everyone needs to go to college in the first place and they could probably shutter 90% of the T3 and T4 law schools in the country.

[PhantaManta]

Since you've now both completely altered the claim you originally made, and admitted it to be hearsay with no special expertise, you should probably concede defeat, yet you keep going.

[jjones78]

Since you've now both completely altered the claim you originally made, and admitted it to be hearsay with no special expertise, you should probably concede defeat, yet you keep going.

And you're going to believe what a given law school admissions office tells you without any scrutiny? Did you hear that Brooklyn Law School is being investigated by the US News and World report about problems with their information reporting? Do you think these law schools don't have any incentive to make their numbers look better than they really are with the amount of federal loan money coming through their offices?

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1

[cdube85]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition

[jjones78]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition

is this directed at me?

[PhantaManta]

God, I hope you aren't studying in law school because 'logic' seems to be a pretty big fuckin' problem for you. (And yes, this is directed at you)

[chromylchloride]

Talking to working attorneys who attended Seattle U, huh? How about working everyday with Seattle U grads? Such is the case with me. The majority of younger associates in my firm are from Seattle U and I have worked with them and talked with them throughout the entire application process, I'm pretty damn sure I know what I am getting into here, and I am happy to be going to a school with a great reputation in Washington. Oh...wait...there are large layoffs in the legal industry you say? I really had no fucking clue. Hey, did anyone else know we are in a recession? This is really new to me...

[jjones78]

Talking to working attorneys who attended Seattle U, huh? How about working everyday with Seattle U grads? Such is the case with me. The majority of younger associates in my firm are from Seattle U and I have worked with them and talked with them throughout the entire application process, I'm pretty damn sure I know what I am getting into here, and I am happy to be going to a school with a great reputation in Washington. Oh...wait...there are large layoffs in the legal industry you say? I really had no fucking clue. Hey, did anyone else know we are in a recession? This is really new to me...

That's good for you, I'm sure some people will do well out of Seattle U, if you already work at a firm with connections you're probably set. I never said some people wouldn't do well there. But that's you, and the average grad doesn't have those connections. But is right to run the entire school for the benefit of 25% of the class? Why not cut back admissions to a sustainable level?

One of my complaints are the fact that they tout "Social Justice" as a selling point to a legal education. I can understand if you want to go to a divinity school and they tout "Social Justice" as a selling point for their divinity school. What "social change" are you going to effect with your law degree? Are you going to use your lawyering skills to overturn despotic third world regimes or cure cancer?

And when I say "good job" I mean a job that can service the average grads debt of probably 80K-130K. The mean salary out of Seattle U is around 60K. And I wouldn't count on the bottom 25% or even the bottom half getting 60K. The whole law school structure is messed up by easy credit federal loans, so it's not just Seattle U, but they are profiting off it which you can see by their nice building and prestigious "legal centers".

If you think you can beat the odds, then go for it, but I would say for the average Seattle U Law grad, it's a bad investment.

[PhantaManta]

You can pay off that debt on that salary. You keep saying "25%" even though many more than 25% of the students at Seattle University will be employed in the legal field, making a range of salaries, although many will be around $50,000.

Everyone already knows that if you graduate below the medium at Seattle University without financial aid, you're in a pretty fucking bad situation. If you want to assume we don't know what we are talking about, you better make sure these 'facts' you present are actually right.

This whole perspective is propagated by people who grew up with the idea that anyone who fails to make 100k a year has 'failed'. White privileged people don't realize how many other people make due with much less.

[jjones78]

Everyone already knows that if you graduate below the medium at Seattle University without financial aid, you're in a pretty fucking bad situation.

There we go, you just made my point. People don't know that, otherwise why would people without scholarships even go? The average rational person would not pay sticker price if they knew the odds of them even landing a decent job were 50-50.

I didn't know this when I started looking at law schools. The average 22-23 year old student doesn't understand what 100K in debt means if they don't have family support.

[jjones78]

This whole perspective is propagated by people who grew up with the idea that anyone who fails to make 100k a year has 'failed'. White privileged people don't realize how many other people make due with much less.

Not true, if someone could make 60K I think that's decent money, but 60K with 150K loans at age 26 is not great.

[PhantaManta]

You keep bashing the social justice thing, but it's not like that is so uncommon - even T14s pump up shit like that - so what?

And fwiw, I haven't applied anywhere yet, and won't until next cycle. I will likely apply to SU but will not likely attend unless other choices I prefer don't work out - so I certainly don't have any particular interest in defending the school.

And trust me, a lot of people on TLS are well aware of what you are trying to warn them of. If not, it is intentional ignorance, and you won't change their mind.

Plenty of people at T2s will either 1. kick complete ass and get a great job, or 2. are happy to do government, public interest, 40-50k private, etc etc.

In response to your second post, I wouldn't take 150k debt at SU, and neither should anyone else, as there are always better options available at other schools. But in the 85k-120k range, the debt becomes manageable. Ideally you wouldn't want to get yourself into 120k debt at Seattle U either, it will require a LOT of work, you'll need to actually be GOOD at it, and you'll need to be active in job search, then you'll have to grind it out for the next 15 years - after which, if you did everything right, you'll be in a pretty good situation compared to the general population (unless the legal economy never recovers / continues to collapse).

I just think a lot of people log on to TLS with the idea that "hey, no one here knows what they are talking abut, so I'll just make a sensationalist post that maybe isn't 100% accurate and it will still be more accurate than what everyone already believes", but that simply isn't true.

[jjones78]

You keep bashing the social justice thing, but it's not like that is so uncommon - even T14s pump up shit like that - so what?

Because they are using it to camouflage poor job prospects.

I just think a lot of people log on to TLS with the idea that "hey, no one here knows what they are talking abut, so I'll just make a sensationalist post that maybe isn't 100% accurate and it will still be more accurate than what everyone already believes", but that simply isn't true.

Well if that's what people like me are doing there aren't enough of us, because law school apps are up 3.8% this year.

[Marmot]

Maybe if you can't get into UW or the elite schools, you shouldn't be in law school?

This was directed at me, so let me be the first to say that I haven't found anything jjones has said offensive, overly negative, or new. He (or she) raises a valid concern in the above quote, and if I hadn't answered that very question to my own satisfaction after a great deal of thought, I wouldn't be attending Seattle U. or any of the better-ranked schools I turned down.

Given the current state of the legal market - and ESPECIALLY if you didn't get into a top 35 law school - you really need to know why you want to practice law and how you're going to make law school worth your time and money. You know what? If this were the booming early nineties, I'd still look strangely upon someone who's decided he wants to study law without any reason apart from perceived riches and/or prestige. Even though it's clear jjones didn't begin posting in this thread in good faith, and his arguments are backed with equal parts data and outright speculation, the general points raised deserve serious consideration. Nobody should make significant time-and-money decisions without taking an honest look at the situation and what he or she can reasonably get out of it. It still kind of makes me scratch my head that people attend law school without at least some sort of scholarship.

That said, I'd be really interested to hear what you have specifically against Seattle University, and the firsthand knowledge (if any) upon which your hostility to the school is based.

[jjones78]

Maybe if you can't get into UW or the elite schools, you shouldn't be in law school?

This was directed at me, so let me be the first to say that I haven't found anything jjones has said offensive, overly negative, or new. He (or she) raises a valid concern in the above quote, and if I hadn't answered that very question to my own satisfaction after a great deal of thought, I wouldn't be attending Seattle U. or any of the better-ranked schools I turned down.

Given the current state of the legal market - and ESPECIALLY if you didn't get into a top 35 law school - you really need to know why you want to practice law and how you're going to make law school worth your time and money. You know what? If this were the booming early nineties, I'd still look strangely upon someone who's decided he wants to study law without any reason apart from perceived riches and/or prestige. Even though it's clear jjones didn't begin posting in this thread in good faith, and his arguments are backed with equal parts data and outright speculation, the general points raised deserve serious consideration. Nobody should make significant time-and-money decisions without taking an honest look at the situation and what he or she can reasonably get out of it. It still kind of makes me scratch my head that people attend law school without at least some sort of scholarship.

That said, I'd be really interested to hear what you have specifically against Seattle University, and the firsthand knowledge (if any) upon which your hostility to the school is based.

I'm glad you didn't take it badly, it wasn't meant in a mean-spirited way. I was simply saying the market does not need more lawyers at this time, and if you can't get into top tier schools, then you should probably think twice. You obviously made a decision with your eyes open and it shows in your response. Some of the more defensive/negative responses to my post I think reveal the insecurity of those people's decisions.

[Marmot]

I'm glad you didn't take it badly, it wasn't meant in a mean-spirited way. I was simply saying the market does not need more lawyers at this time, and if you can't get into top tier schools, then you should probably think twice. You obviously made a decision with your eyes open and it shows in your response. Some of the more defensive/negative responses to my post I think reveal the insecurity of those people's decisions.

Is that really why you posted here in the first place? A selfless personal crusade to make sure that all prospective law students take a long, hard look in the mirror? You are to be commended, for you sir are one part Yoda and two parts Dr. Phil.

Somehow I think you were coming here to stir up an argument, though. This is your first message in the thread:

has anyone heard about job prospects at seattle u? i've heard only top 25% have good job prospects. and that was in a good economy. anyone else heard anything/considered this in attending seattle u?

That's a reasonable question, but as someone pointed out, we're all a bit puzzled why you asked it in a thread entitled "Seattle University Class of 2012." There's a general thread about the school in the Choosing a Law School section, but you decided to come into the Class of 2012 area. You may be right that some folks are acting defensive, but I have to wonder if you weren't just deciding to troll. It certainly comes across as a bit of a dick move.

At first you said this:

I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from going to Seattle U...

...and then you turned around and said this:

I know probably no one is listening to a word I say, but if I could convince one person not to throw away 50K on a school like Seattle U then I have accomplished my mission.

Do you understand why people are reacting negatively? That's why I think you're here in bad faith. I can't say I quite grasp your purportedly selfish mission to prevent others from making the horrible, foolish decision to attend law school. Arguments like yours are a dime a dozen on this message board, and while some of them hold water, they're not terribly appreciated in a thread for people who've already decided to attend.

Anyhow, if you're really actually looking for job placement data there's plenty of links to various studies all over this board. But again, this isn't the place for that discussion.

[Marmot]

Soooooooo... anyone want to go to an M's game in late June?

[jjones78]

...

[Marmot]

jjones87 user stats...

Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 3:04 pm
Last visited: Sat May 09, 2009 1:16 pm
Total posts: 11

All posts in this thread. Troll city.

-------------------------------

Like I was saying, anyone interested in a Mariners outing some time in late June?

[macattaq]

Sure. I haven't been to a baseball game in a decade.

I'm planning on getting tickets to the Sounders's (Sounders'?) matches against Chelsea and Barçelona, if anyone wants to try and make those!

[clara]

Assuming for the sake of argument that Oregon doesn't snap to its senses and take me in the next couple of weeks, I'll be seeing y'all on campus.

As a local, I'm pretty gosh darn psyched law school won't take much relocation!

Also, if you have questions about neighborhoods, buses, parking, etc. feel free to contact me. I love Seattle; I've been around the world and around the country and I choose being here. There's a lot that's awesome, and a lot that sucks, and basically remember that Seattle is the world's biggest trailer park. It's a good place to be, and a good place to be from. Some people can't take its warts, but assuming the earthquake doesn't drop the viaduct on us and The Mountain doesn't erupt...this is the place.

[clara]

Okay, but when you file your first motion in King County Superior Court for Gomez v. Safeway in regards to the trip and slip in aisle three don't blame me, because I was just looking out for you. I'm sure the professors at Seattle U and the administrative staff have only had two vacations this year, and without your tuition money they won't be able to make their next two.

Dude, I'm a paralegal. I've worked in the metro area for years. UPS/SU grads are well thought of in the legal community in Western Washington, and though there will always be rockstars from better schools; that's true for everyone unless you went to Harvard, Yale, or Boalt. Yes, top 25% expands your earnings potential. Yes, the bar pass rate is average, but the Washington bar exam (you know, non-MPRE and all) is kind of a bear.

I'm not the most awesome candidate a law school has ever had. The nod from an institution right here in my hometown which so happens to be a less expensive private school is a plus. I'd be standing up for SU, accepted or not. I just wonder why the wrath for this specific school when you yourself freely admit this can be said of 90% of schools below Tier 2.

Which, um, we're in. Tied with Oregon, no less.

[cdube85]

So, I'm coming up for the visit weekend. I'll be staying down by Pike's Place Market. I figure I'll spend Friday and Monday up by the campus. Any local suggestions for what to do over the weekend? I'm a sucker for a good pizza. Any suggestions?