Sexual Misconduct and C&F

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Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby Throwawayquestion » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:13 pm

Going to try to describe as accurately as possible just to get an accurate take of whether or not this situation kills odds for T14 with strong GPA (3.8+) and presumed strong LSAT.

I essentially had a complaint filed against me for a groping situation, during my freshman year. No formal hearing was conducted, and it all happened in an informal process because of the perceived severity of the charge. I received probation during which I couldn't enter the specific section of the dorm the complainant lived, along with a directive not to communicate through the end of college. The probation was lifted after I attended education sessions about conduct in these situations. The entire file is completely confidential, and the note that would be sent to law schools and the bars is simply a more technical description of the above.

Given that I would of course disclose does this kill any odds of getting in at a T14 and later getting admitted to a state bar? This is the only thing I'd need to disclose, no other parking tickets, drug & alcohol charges etc. Would this necessitate cutting off pursuing the law entirely.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby QContinuum » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:03 pm

I don't think any of us can say for sure. Certainly this will negatively impact your chances, but precisely how much will depend on a number of factors, including:
  • Your description of the incident, i.e., your candor, acceptance of responsibility, lessons learned (or lack thereof).
  • The severity of what happened. That you were issued a no-contact order, and physically banned from entering an entire dormitory section, suggests the conduct was way more than "drunken one-off bad act at a frat party."
  • How long ago this happened. If you're a prospective K-JD, this will impact your chances much more than if, say, this happened a decade ago.

You may wish to consult with a C&F attorney in your jurisdiction(s) of interest to ask about how this would impact your odds of admission to the bar. My gut sense - though I'm not a C&F attorney, to be clear, and this isn't legal advice - is that this probably wouldn't be fatal to getting barred.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:21 am

I agree that consulting a C&F attorney makes sense.

Can you also be a little more specific about what the "informal" process looked like? The penalties sound like the result of a formal hearing process.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby LSATWiz.com » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:10 am

I'd just add a few things:

1.) I disagree with Cavalier that the sanctions OP describes would have required a formal hearing. Preventing OP from contacting the victim or entering their part of the dorm would seem like bare minimum necessary steps just to avoid a lawsuit. The fact OP was allowed to remain in the dorm is inconsistent with a formal process as people get kicked out dorms for infractions as innocuous as having alcohol or smoking pot. There's really no reason to doubt OP's account, and the fact the punishments weren't more severe suggests the school was either very reckless or truly believed OP didn't present an ongoing threat.

2.) To OP - It's not like schools penalize you .2 GPA points for sexual misconduct or .1 for a DWI and so forth. This is the kind of thing that will either lead to you being outright rejected or have little impact, and it won't necessarily be that better-ranked schools reject you and lower-ranked schools accept you. It's going to largely depend on the individuals in a particular admissions office. It's also possible that schools will accept you but offer less scholarship money as they know your options may be more limited than other applicants with your numbers.

3.) While it's understandable you don't want to post the specifics here, they are very relevant to the effect this will have on your cycle and ability to get through C&F - namely, what exactly the groping consisted of and what the context was. Putting ethics and morality aside for a second, schools will not accept you if they think you may pose a risk to other law students. There is also the character and fitness concern, and if this was the kind of thing that involved you sneaking up on someone or forcing someone onto a bed against their will, it's possible you may never be able to practice law.

I agree that it's worthwhile to meet with a C&F lawyer to make sure you'll be able to pass the bar. I also think you may want to consult with a company that specializes in helping students with law school applications as the way you disclose this addendum is very relevant. As the phrase, sexual misconduct leads one to assume the worst, it's important to be detailed without being offensive.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby Throwawayquestion » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:16 pm

cavalier1138 wrote: Can you also be a little more specific about what the "informal" process looked like? The penalties sound like the result of a formal hearing process.


It was formal in the fact that there was a process, but in the context of the university it’s referred to as informal because it doesn’t go through a full hearing process. Statements were just exchanged back and forth and assessed by the dean. And the process was not included anonymized in the university’s formal end of year discipline report.

And to clarify, there’s no sexual assault. It’s essentially over the course of what I thought was extended flirting over an afternoon, I greatly misinterpreted the other person’s signals. We moved in and out of hanging out and dorm parties throughout the evening, until she ran into me at a dorm lounge at the end of the evening. This become a disciplinary issue when in the process of this, she says I groped her, which I can’t say with certainty I did or didn’t because I legitimately don’t remember. I’m not going to justify myself, but through the education process, I realized the massive difference between how she interpreted my actions versus how I intended them and why she felt threatened by me. It’s difficult to describe exactly what happened, because the whole thing was weird. But the grope is what made it a university disciplinary matter.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby LawTweet » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:15 pm

Throwawayquestion wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote: Can you also be a little more specific about what the "informal" process looked like? The penalties sound like the result of a formal hearing process.


It was formal in the fact that there was a process, but in the context of the university it’s referred to as informal because it doesn’t go through a full hearing process. Statements were just exchanged back and forth and assessed by the dean. And the process was not included anonymized in the university’s formal end of year discipline report.

And to clarify, there’s no sexual assault. It’s essentially over the course of what I thought was extended flirting over an afternoon, I greatly misinterpreted the other person’s signals. We moved in and out of hanging out and dorm parties throughout the evening, until she ran into me at a dorm lounge at the end of the evening. This become a disciplinary issue when in the process of this, she says I groped her, which I can’t say with certainty I did or didn’t because I legitimately don’t remember. I’m not going to justify myself, but through the education process, I realized the massive difference between how she interpreted my actions versus how I intended them and why she felt threatened by me. It’s difficult to describe exactly what happened, because the whole thing was weird. But the grope is what made it a university disciplinary matter.


Just to be clear, groping is a type of sexual assault. The fact that you say it wasn't sexual assault makes me particularly concerned that you haven't actually learned from your behavior.

And if you exchanged statements and the university adjudicated, then that was a formal disciplinary process regardless of what the school said. If the school chose not to include this data in the end-of-year discipline report then that sounds pretty shady to me and like they're trying to cover up the number of sexual misconduct incidents.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby Throwawayquestion » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:34 pm

Well I say it’s not sexual assault, because under the federal title IX directives the university showed me it is not classified as sexual assault, it’s classified as sexual abuse, and I don’t reject that. I’m just being accurate to what the notice my university would send forth would say.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby LSATWiz.com » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:29 am

Throwawayquestion wrote:Well I say it’s not sexual assault, because under the federal title IX directives the university showed me it is not classified as sexual assault, it’s classified as sexual abuse, and I don’t reject that. I’m just being accurate to what the notice my university would send forth would say.

What I'm confused about from your description is that even if she gave express consent to spending the night together, going from zero to groping would be jarring for anyone irrespective of gender. Even if you had read the signals correctly, that still seems like a bizarre reaction. It's difficult to imagine any signals that would convey "grope me" unless you were presently sharing a romantic encounter, which would lead me to question the credibility of that account if I were reading it, but that could just be me.

I suppose it is possible you were just young and inexperienced with those situations, and simply made a terrible mistake. If this is the case, I would absolutely state that as that along with a lack of repeat instances are likely to be considered mitigating factors. It's still a bad situation, but not as bad as if you did so because you could not control yourself or for retaliatory reasons - if say, she rejected a kiss and you groped her thereafter.

I think it's important to be concise and to candidly take responsibility. The "this is what she claimed" rhetoric would be an auto-reject if that were in any addendum as (1) the situation was adjudicated, and (2) there's absolutely no motive for her to made up the situation based on your description of the prior interactions between the two of you. You'd simply come across as someone who has issues with women, and behaved violently towards one on at least one occasion.

You want to take full responsibility, and be detailed enough for the reader to see the situation from your perspective. It's not that there are two sides of the story, but that the reader will question whether this is an instance of an experienced teenager making an honest mistake or someone with a predisposition to behave in this manner. The former is still objectively bad, but inspires much more confidence that the situation won't repeat itself.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby Npret » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:15 am

It’s going to hurt you. You need to talk to an expert because this will come up when you are going through licensing. You will most likely need a full interview or hearing depending on where you live.

Don’t minimize this and don’t expect your grades or assumed LSAT (which why are we assuming without a real score) to overcome sexual abuse/assault on your college record. Honestly, you should have been removed from the dorm. It sounds like the college was protecting you, but that may just be the way it’s presented.

We can’t tell you not to pursue law. It depends on factors we don’t know. You should talk to an expert

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby hlsperson1111 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:36 pm

Npret wrote:It’s going to hurt you. You need to talk to an expert because this will come up when you are going through licensing. You will most likely need a full interview or hearing depending on where you live.

Don’t minimize this and don’t expect your grades or assumed LSAT (which why are we assuming without a real score) to overcome sexual abuse/assault on your college record. Honestly, you should have been removed from the dorm. It sounds like the college was protecting you, but that may just be the way it’s presented.

We can’t tell you not to pursue law. It depends on factors we don’t know. You should talk to an expert


This is hyperbolic and alarmist. Not a C&F attorney, but I highly doubt this will bar OP's admission to the bar. He wasn't convicted of (or even charged with) a crime, expelled from school, or even suspended. It will be an issue he will need to explain in his C&F application but should not be a big deal.

OP, I would submit a neutral but candid addendum in which you explain:

-You were determined to be in violation of your school's sexual misconduct policy following a review of written materials from both involved parties. (I would not mention that it was for "groping" and would just state that there was a determination that you violated a policy.)

-You were directed not to contact her or to enter the section of the dorm where she lived, and you were directed to complete a course about the school's sexual misconduct policy and placed on probation until you did so.

-You were not suspended or expelled and were not charged with a crime.

-This is the only disciplinary issue you have ever had in college.

Don't include a bunch of fluff about how you're sorry, how you've changed, the importance of respecting women, etc. (That said, don't deny that it happened or say "this is what she alleged" - you were determined to be in violation of your school's policy and there's no getting away from that.) Short, neutral, nothing but the facts.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby LSATWiz.com » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:05 pm

hlsperson1111 wrote:
Npret wrote:It’s going to hurt you. You need to talk to an expert because this will come up when you are going through licensing. You will most likely need a full interview or hearing depending on where you live.

Don’t minimize this and don’t expect your grades or assumed LSAT (which why are we assuming without a real score) to overcome sexual abuse/assault on your college record. Honestly, you should have been removed from the dorm. It sounds like the college was protecting you, but that may just be the way it’s presented.

We can’t tell you not to pursue law. It depends on factors we don’t know. You should talk to an expert


This is hyperbolic and alarmist. Not a C&F attorney, but I highly doubt this will bar OP's admission to the bar. He wasn't convicted of (or even charged with) a crime, expelled from school, or even suspended. It will be an issue he will need to explain in his C&F application but should not be a big deal.

OP, I would submit a neutral but candid addendum in which you explain:

-You were determined to be in violation of your school's sexual misconduct policy following a review of written materials from both involved parties. (I would not mention that it was for "groping" and would just state that there was a determination that you violated a policy.)

-You were directed not to contact her or to enter the section of the dorm where she lived, and you were directed to complete a course about the school's sexual misconduct policy and placed on probation until you did so.

-You were not suspended or expelled and were not charged with a crime.

-This is the only disciplinary issue you have ever had in college.

Don't include a bunch of fluff about how you're sorry, how you've changed, the importance of respecting women, etc. (That said, don't deny that it happened or say "this is what she alleged" - you were determined to be in violation of your school's policy and there's no getting away from that.) Short, neutral, nothing but the facts.

You are kind of strawmanning what they said. They simply said they should speak to a C&F attorney, because this could be a major hurdle. The fact there's no police record is a critical factor and one that benefits him, but doesn't make this a non-issue.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby Throwawayquestion » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:28 pm

There were some harsh words, but it definitely is something I’ve already told myself many times and understand the gravity of what happened. Appreciate the advice around taking a gap between school and making sure to contact someone with a C&F background with regards to confirming bar eligibility in states I’d consider.

What would be the expense of a C&F attorney consultation would they take the initial consultation at a low cost, with the expectation to be retained for the actual application?

And also, of course a good LSAT wouldn’t make up for me raping someone. I’m just asking would this situation, which is well below rape, prevent a competitive applicant from receiving acceptance and practicing with an otherwise good application. In the current environment, the university would’ve been more than willing to punish me more if they thought the situation had warranted it.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby hlsperson1111 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:40 pm

LSATWiz.com wrote:
hlsperson1111 wrote:
Npret wrote:It’s going to hurt you. You need to talk to an expert because this will come up when you are going through licensing. You will most likely need a full interview or hearing depending on where you live.

Don’t minimize this and don’t expect your grades or assumed LSAT (which why are we assuming without a real score) to overcome sexual abuse/assault on your college record. Honestly, you should have been removed from the dorm. It sounds like the college was protecting you, but that may just be the way it’s presented.

We can’t tell you not to pursue law. It depends on factors we don’t know. You should talk to an expert


This is hyperbolic and alarmist. Not a C&F attorney, but I highly doubt this will bar OP's admission to the bar. He wasn't convicted of (or even charged with) a crime, expelled from school, or even suspended. It will be an issue he will need to explain in his C&F application but should not be a big deal.

OP, I would submit a neutral but candid addendum in which you explain:

-You were determined to be in violation of your school's sexual misconduct policy following a review of written materials from both involved parties. (I would not mention that it was for "groping" and would just state that there was a determination that you violated a policy.)

-You were directed not to contact her or to enter the section of the dorm where she lived, and you were directed to complete a course about the school's sexual misconduct policy and placed on probation until you did so.

-You were not suspended or expelled and were not charged with a crime.

-This is the only disciplinary issue you have ever had in college.

Don't include a bunch of fluff about how you're sorry, how you've changed, the importance of respecting women, etc. (That said, don't deny that it happened or say "this is what she alleged" - you were determined to be in violation of your school's policy and there's no getting away from that.) Short, neutral, nothing but the facts.

You are kind of strawmanning what they said. They simply said they should speak to a C&F attorney, because this could be a major hurdle. The fact there's no police record is a critical factor and one that benefits him, but doesn't make this a non-issue.


Npret took the the position that this would likely require a full interview or a hearing and has a material chance of preventing the OP from passing C&F (i.e., that it would be a major hurdle). That strikes me as unlikely. I honestly believe think this is a non-issue, so long as OP discloses and is candid on his application. I am not aware of any state bar that has prevented someone from being licensed due to college disciplinary issues, at least not without academic dishonesty involved.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby albanach » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:50 pm

hlsperson1111 wrote:
Npret took the the position that this would likely require a full interview or a hearing and has a material chance of preventing the OP from passing C&F (i.e., that it would be a major hurdle). That strikes me as unlikely. I honestly believe think this is a non-issue, so long as OP discloses and is candid on his application. I am not aware of any state bar that has prevented someone from being licensed due to college disciplinary issues, at least not without academic dishonesty involved.


I tend to agree with Npret that this will likely require a full hearing. Assuming you define 'material' to mean 'significant', I'm not sure I read that into Npret's answer. There's definitely a leap from a matter that's going to require a good explanation to one that's got a significant chance of resulting in denied admission.

Numerous lawyers have been suspended for conduct like this with clients, so I would be surprised if the bar didn't want an in-person explanation.

I think that OP could face a bigger issue with school admission. The school may consider OP to be a risk they don't want to take. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if OP's cycle is a bit more varied than their numbers would predict.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby LSATWiz.com » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:22 pm

albanach wrote:
hlsperson1111 wrote:
Npret took the the position that this would likely require a full interview or a hearing and has a material chance of preventing the OP from passing C&F (i.e., that it would be a major hurdle). That strikes me as unlikely. I honestly believe think this is a non-issue, so long as OP discloses and is candid on his application. I am not aware of any state bar that has prevented someone from being licensed due to college disciplinary issues, at least not without academic dishonesty involved.


I tend to agree with Npret that this will likely require a full hearing. Assuming you define 'material' to mean 'significant', I'm not sure I read that into Npret's answer. There's definitely a leap from a matter that's going to require a good explanation to one that's got a significant chance of resulting in denied admission.

Numerous lawyers have been suspended for conduct like this with clients, so I would be surprised if the bar didn't want an in-person explanation.

I think that OP could face a bigger issue with school admission. The school may consider OP to be a risk they don't want to take. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if OP's cycle is a bit more varied than their numbers would predict.

I'm inclined to agree. I'm not a C&F lawyer, but this is obviously a state-specific inquiry, and it is worth noting that reviewers have a great deal of leeway on whether to waive someone through or not so there's necessarily a great deal of subjectivity involved. Plus, the facts of the situation are incredibly relevant, and we don't have all of the facts nor would it be in OP's best interests to reveal them on a public forum.

Based on what we have, OP was found guilty of sexual misconduct in probably the worst climate to be found guilty of such conduct. There are mitigating factors that you picked up on that can help minimize the impact it has on getting licensed, but I think the idea it won't be asked about during a hearing is far-fetched. I'd also disagree that just providing basic facts is the way to go. I'm not a C&F lawyer, but I'd imagine OP would want to list any facts that make it seem more like he was like an inexperienced teenager who liked a girl and misread a situation due to inexperience than a sexual predator. I agree the worst thing he could do is not take responsibility for it, second only to not disclosing it.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby hlsperson1111 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:27 pm

LSATWiz.com wrote:
albanach wrote:
hlsperson1111 wrote:
Npret took the the position that this would likely require a full interview or a hearing and has a material chance of preventing the OP from passing C&F (i.e., that it would be a major hurdle). That strikes me as unlikely. I honestly believe think this is a non-issue, so long as OP discloses and is candid on his application. I am not aware of any state bar that has prevented someone from being licensed due to college disciplinary issues, at least not without academic dishonesty involved.


I tend to agree with Npret that this will likely require a full hearing. Assuming you define 'material' to mean 'significant', I'm not sure I read that into Npret's answer. There's definitely a leap from a matter that's going to require a good explanation to one that's got a significant chance of resulting in denied admission.

Numerous lawyers have been suspended for conduct like this with clients, so I would be surprised if the bar didn't want an in-person explanation.

I think that OP could face a bigger issue with school admission. The school may consider OP to be a risk they don't want to take. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if OP's cycle is a bit more varied than their numbers would predict.

I'm inclined to agree. I'm not a C&F lawyer, but this is obviously a state-specific inquiry, and it is worth noting that reviewers have a great deal of leeway on whether to waive someone through or not so there's necessarily a great deal of subjectivity involved. Plus, the facts of the situation are incredibly relevant, and we don't have all of the facts nor would it be in OP's best interests to reveal them on a public forum.

Based on what we have, OP was found guilty of sexual misconduct in probably the worst climate to be found guilty of such conduct. There are mitigating factors that you picked up on that can help minimize the impact it has on getting licensed, but I think the idea it won't be asked about during a hearing is far-fetched. I'd also disagree that just providing basic facts is the way to go. I'm not a C&F lawyer, but I'd imagine OP would want to list any facts that make it seem more like he was like an inexperienced teenager who liked a girl and misread a situation due to inexperience than a sexual predator. I agree the worst thing he could do is not take responsibility for it, second only to not disclosing it.


I think the fact that he wasn't suspended/expelled and that he has no other disciplinary record is far better evidence of him not being a sexual predator than anything he could write in an addendum.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby Npret » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:29 pm

OPs post asked if he should give up on law. I said we can’t answer the question. He should get expert advice that will set him up in a good position for the future. I explained that the C & F inquiry will vary depending on the state.

My advice is it’s best to be over prepared for addressing this issue. Maybe an expert will agree that it is fine. I don’t know.

OP - there are bar associations that can recommend lawyers. You may be able to get an initial consultation for not much. Your question isn’t that complicated.
Last edited by Npret on Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby LSATWiz.com » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:34 pm

hlsperson1111 wrote:
LSATWiz.com wrote:
albanach wrote:
hlsperson1111 wrote:
Npret took the the position that this would likely require a full interview or a hearing and has a material chance of preventing the OP from passing C&F (i.e., that it would be a major hurdle). That strikes me as unlikely. I honestly believe think this is a non-issue, so long as OP discloses and is candid on his application. I am not aware of any state bar that has prevented someone from being licensed due to college disciplinary issues, at least not without academic dishonesty involved.


I tend to agree with Npret that this will likely require a full hearing. Assuming you define 'material' to mean 'significant', I'm not sure I read that into Npret's answer. There's definitely a leap from a matter that's going to require a good explanation to one that's got a significant chance of resulting in denied admission.

Numerous lawyers have been suspended for conduct like this with clients, so I would be surprised if the bar didn't want an in-person explanation.

I think that OP could face a bigger issue with school admission. The school may consider OP to be a risk they don't want to take. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if OP's cycle is a bit more varied than their numbers would predict.

I'm inclined to agree. I'm not a C&F lawyer, but this is obviously a state-specific inquiry, and it is worth noting that reviewers have a great deal of leeway on whether to waive someone through or not so there's necessarily a great deal of subjectivity involved. Plus, the facts of the situation are incredibly relevant, and we don't have all of the facts nor would it be in OP's best interests to reveal them on a public forum.

Based on what we have, OP was found guilty of sexual misconduct in probably the worst climate to be found guilty of such conduct. There are mitigating factors that you picked up on that can help minimize the impact it has on getting licensed, but I think the idea it won't be asked about during a hearing is far-fetched. I'd also disagree that just providing basic facts is the way to go. I'm not a C&F lawyer, but I'd imagine OP would want to list any facts that make it seem more like he was like an inexperienced teenager who liked a girl and misread a situation due to inexperience than a sexual predator. I agree the worst thing he could do is not take responsibility for it, second only to not disclosing it.


I think the fact that he wasn't suspended/expelled and that he has no other disciplinary record is far better evidence of him not being a sexual predator than anything he could write in an addendum.

I don't see why the two are mutually exclusive.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby LawTweet » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:39 pm

hlsperson1111 wrote:
LSATWiz.com wrote:
albanach wrote:
hlsperson1111 wrote:
Npret took the the position that this would likely require a full interview or a hearing and has a material chance of preventing the OP from passing C&F (i.e., that it would be a major hurdle). That strikes me as unlikely. I honestly believe think this is a non-issue, so long as OP discloses and is candid on his application. I am not aware of any state bar that has prevented someone from being licensed due to college disciplinary issues, at least not without academic dishonesty involved.


I tend to agree with Npret that this will likely require a full hearing. Assuming you define 'material' to mean 'significant', I'm not sure I read that into Npret's answer. There's definitely a leap from a matter that's going to require a good explanation to one that's got a significant chance of resulting in denied admission.

Numerous lawyers have been suspended for conduct like this with clients, so I would be surprised if the bar didn't want an in-person explanation.

I think that OP could face a bigger issue with school admission. The school may consider OP to be a risk they don't want to take. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if OP's cycle is a bit more varied than their numbers would predict.

I'm inclined to agree. I'm not a C&F lawyer, but this is obviously a state-specific inquiry, and it is worth noting that reviewers have a great deal of leeway on whether to waive someone through or not so there's necessarily a great deal of subjectivity involved. Plus, the facts of the situation are incredibly relevant, and we don't have all of the facts nor would it be in OP's best interests to reveal them on a public forum.

Based on what we have, OP was found guilty of sexual misconduct in probably the worst climate to be found guilty of such conduct. There are mitigating factors that you picked up on that can help minimize the impact it has on getting licensed, but I think the idea it won't be asked about during a hearing is far-fetched. I'd also disagree that just providing basic facts is the way to go. I'm not a C&F lawyer, but I'd imagine OP would want to list any facts that make it seem more like he was like an inexperienced teenager who liked a girl and misread a situation due to inexperience than a sexual predator. I agree the worst thing he could do is not take responsibility for it, second only to not disclosing it.


I think the fact that he wasn't suspended/expelled and that he has no other disciplinary record is far better evidence of him not being a sexual predator than anything he could write in an addendum.


That's a damn joke. Just last year or so, University of Michigan (per published data) has found students responsible for rape and have issued them "educational projects" and "no contact directives." Zero suspension or expulsion. And the victim contested the consequence and they upheld it. Colleges are afraid of respondents suing their schools and they're willing to give embarrassingly light sanctions even in this climate where sexual misconduct is given somewhat more concern than it has historically.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby LSATWiz.com » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:14 am

LawTweet wrote:
hlsperson1111 wrote:
LSATWiz.com wrote:
albanach wrote:
hlsperson1111 wrote:
Npret took the the position that this would likely require a full interview or a hearing and has a material chance of preventing the OP from passing C&F (i.e., that it would be a major hurdle). That strikes me as unlikely. I honestly believe think this is a non-issue, so long as OP discloses and is candid on his application. I am not aware of any state bar that has prevented someone from being licensed due to college disciplinary issues, at least not without academic dishonesty involved.


I tend to agree with Npret that this will likely require a full hearing. Assuming you define 'material' to mean 'significant', I'm not sure I read that into Npret's answer. There's definitely a leap from a matter that's going to require a good explanation to one that's got a significant chance of resulting in denied admission.

Numerous lawyers have been suspended for conduct like this with clients, so I would be surprised if the bar didn't want an in-person explanation.

I think that OP could face a bigger issue with school admission. The school may consider OP to be a risk they don't want to take. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if OP's cycle is a bit more varied than their numbers would predict.

I'm inclined to agree. I'm not a C&F lawyer, but this is obviously a state-specific inquiry, and it is worth noting that reviewers have a great deal of leeway on whether to waive someone through or not so there's necessarily a great deal of subjectivity involved. Plus, the facts of the situation are incredibly relevant, and we don't have all of the facts nor would it be in OP's best interests to reveal them on a public forum.

Based on what we have, OP was found guilty of sexual misconduct in probably the worst climate to be found guilty of such conduct. There are mitigating factors that you picked up on that can help minimize the impact it has on getting licensed, but I think the idea it won't be asked about during a hearing is far-fetched. I'd also disagree that just providing basic facts is the way to go. I'm not a C&F lawyer, but I'd imagine OP would want to list any facts that make it seem more like he was like an inexperienced teenager who liked a girl and misread a situation due to inexperience than a sexual predator. I agree the worst thing he could do is not take responsibility for it, second only to not disclosing it.


I think the fact that he wasn't suspended/expelled and that he has no other disciplinary record is far better evidence of him not being a sexual predator than anything he could write in an addendum.


That's a damn joke. Just last year or so, University of Michigan (per published data) has found students responsible for rape and have issued them "educational projects" and "no contact directives." Zero suspension or expulsion. And the victim contested the consequence and they upheld it. Colleges are afraid of respondents suing their schools and they're willing to give embarrassingly light sanctions even in this climate where sexual misconduct is given somewhat more concern than it has historically.

I'm not a moderator but can see this thread is in danger of segueing into an issue that is outside the scope of what's being asked.

To me, the issues that pop out are fourfold, which is why some description may be necessary:

(1) Regardless of whether there is a criminal record, groping someone's genitalia is sexual assault, which is considered a serious crime. It's true that C&F often will waive people by with multiple drug and alcohol infractions when they would not if there were a criminal record. The difference is that these people would probably ultimately get in even with criminal records whereas they would not with sexual offenses.

(2) The ABA is particularly concerned with protecting the public. Lawyers often find themselves in situations where they'd be able to sexually exploit a subordinate or client without facing repercussions. The lack of repeat instances demonstrates self-restraint, but not whether that self-restraint is responsive to a risk-reward calculus or ethical values.

(3) By its very nature, sexual assault tends to be associated with hostile views towards women more generally. Both the law school admissions and C&F reviewer are probably going to question whether OP has issues with women, and want to believe the answer is "no" before admitting them.

(4) OP's version of the events doesn't make a whole lot of sense because it is difficult to envision a situation where he could have reasonably believed he had consent to grope unless there was present physical contact between them. It doesn't seem like they had been kissing or that she had been on his lap, etc., which would lead me to believe that OP didn't actually believe he had a green light. The only explanation that would really support that account is a lack of prior sexual experience. The bigger point here is it doesn't matter what's actually true, but what the adcom believes. If they believe OP is lying, it doesn't matter if they could prove it. Determining if someone has "character" and "fitness" is naturally subjective.

I do agree that it would seem disingenuous to write a long diatribe about how he learned to respect women, because anything along the lines of "I learned it is not nice to grope someone's genitalia without their consent, because it can make them uncomfortable" would kind of be met with a "no shit Sherlock" reaction. At the same time, stating one should never do this would also seem disingenuous as at some point OP will likely be in a situation where his partner wants them to do this.

This is why I think this can be a major hurdle, and while I wouldn't advocate he write a Charles Dickens-type description of the grope detailing how the moon looked that evening, I do think that he'd want to address those four issues as I believe most admissions and C&F reviewers will be concerned with those four things.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby Throwawayquestion » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:54 pm

LSATWiz.com wrote:
(1) Regardless of whether there is a criminal record, groping someone's genitalia is sexual assault, which is considered a serious crime. It's true that C&F often will waive people by with multiple drug and alcohol infractions when they would not if there were a criminal record. The difference is that these people would probably ultimately get in even with criminal records whereas they would not with sexual offenses.

(2) The ABA is particularly concerned with protecting the public. Lawyers often find themselves in situations where they'd be able to sexually exploit a subordinate or client without facing repercussions. The lack of repeat instances demonstrates self-restraint, but not whether that self-restraint is responsive to a risk-reward calculus or ethical values.

(3) By its very nature, sexual assault tends to be associated with hostile views towards women more generally. Both the law school admissions and C&F reviewer are probably going to question whether OP has issues with women, and want to believe the answer is "no" before admitting them.

(4) OP's version of the events doesn't make a whole lot of sense because it is difficult to envision a situation where he could have reasonably believed he had consent to grope unless there was present physical contact between them. It doesn't seem like they had been kissing or that she had been on his lap, etc., which would lead me to believe that OP didn't actually believe he had a green light. The only explanation that would really support that account is a lack of prior sexual experience.


Going to clarify somethings and see how this changes your assessment

1) It wasn’t grabbing her genitalia it was grabbing her boob

4) I guess this is where some of your confusion might lie, since I underdetermined. We had been platonically cuddling and sort of half-wrestling for a few hours before. So we’d been on eachother physically though we did not kiss. And when I was about to kiss her, I stopped when she saw I was going to and asked me not to, and physically separated from her.

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Re: Sexual Misconduct and C&F

Postby LSATWiz.com » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:23 am

Throwawayquestion wrote:
LSATWiz.com wrote:
(1) Regardless of whether there is a criminal record, groping someone's genitalia is sexual assault, which is considered a serious crime. It's true that C&F often will waive people by with multiple drug and alcohol infractions when they would not if there were a criminal record. The difference is that these people would probably ultimately get in even with criminal records whereas they would not with sexual offenses.

(2) The ABA is particularly concerned with protecting the public. Lawyers often find themselves in situations where they'd be able to sexually exploit a subordinate or client without facing repercussions. The lack of repeat instances demonstrates self-restraint, but not whether that self-restraint is responsive to a risk-reward calculus or ethical values.

(3) By its very nature, sexual assault tends to be associated with hostile views towards women more generally. Both the law school admissions and C&F reviewer are probably going to question whether OP has issues with women, and want to believe the answer is "no" before admitting them.

(4) OP's version of the events doesn't make a whole lot of sense because it is difficult to envision a situation where he could have reasonably believed he had consent to grope unless there was present physical contact between them. It doesn't seem like they had been kissing or that she had been on his lap, etc., which would lead me to believe that OP didn't actually believe he had a green light. The only explanation that would really support that account is a lack of prior sexual experience.


Going to clarify somethings and see how this changes your assessment

1) It wasn’t grabbing her genitalia it was grabbing her boob

4) I guess this is where some of your confusion might lie, since I underdetermined. We had been platonically cuddling and sort of half-wrestling for a few hours before. So we’d been on eachother physically though we did not kiss. And when I was about to kiss her, I stopped when she saw I was going to and asked me not to, and physically separated from her.

I'm still confused - was the touch before or after you attempted to kiss her? Regardless, I would mention that you both were touching and in a physically intimate position as that's a relevant fact consistent with misreading a situation versus predatory behavior.



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