Physician to Lawyer Forum

[Dbate_2019]

Hello,

I'm currently a second year ENT surgery resident at a top hospital (e.g. Columbia/MGH/UPenn) level. I've decided I don't enjoy medicine and I don't see myself pursuing this career for my life.

I went to a top college (e.g. H/Y/P) and got a solid GPA there (3.57) and then went to my state's medical school for my M.D. and finished with a 3.67. I did very well on all my medical school exams and landed a top residency position. I mention this because I think I can definitely get a 170 or higher on the LSAT (when I first took a practice LSAT back in college cold I scored in the 160s).

So I wanted to ask how admission committees will view an application like mine. Will it look like I'm fickle and just switching careers because I don't have my sh*t together? Or will my prior experience as a physician be viewed as unique and as asset in admissions?

And with my 3.57 uGPA and a 170+ LSAT, what type/tier of schools should I be aiming for?

Thanks!

[265489164158]

I have no idea how an admission committee would view your situation, but as a recent law school grad now studying for the bar, my question is why??? You have already been through hell and invested a lot of time and money in a profession. Honestly, I loved law school and get super excited about the law, and this is still such a grind that I cannot imagine doing it without having a burning passion. It doesn't sound like you have a burning passion to practice law.

Perhaps you should consider changing specialties or taking some time to figure out what you really want to do before jumping into another profession. Just my two cents.

[Lawman1865]

Hello,

I'm currently a second year ENT surgery resident at a top hospital (e.g. Columbia/MGH/UPenn) level. I've decided I don't enjoy medicine and I don't see myself pursuing this career for my life.

I went to a top college (e.g. H/Y/P) and got a solid GPA there (3.57) and then went to my state's medical school for my M.D. and finished with a 3.67. I did very well on all my medical school exams and landed a top residency position. I mention this because I think I can definitely get a 170 or higher on the LSAT (when I first took a practice LSAT back in college cold I scored in the 160s).

So I wanted to ask how admission committees will view an application like mine. Will it look like I'm fickle and just switching careers because I don't have my sh*t together? Or will my prior experience as a physician be viewed as unique and as asset in admissions?

And with my 3.57 uGPA and a 170+ LSAT, what type/tier of schools should I be aiming for?

Thanks!

There is really not a lot of info in the OP. I'll assume you've done a decent amount of research and have tried literally everything possible to make your career in medicine work out. If you have not, as the above poster suggested, it may be wise to perhaps find a different field or specialty. If you don't think that would work, then to strictly answer your question, as long as you have a good LSAT score, I don't see an admissions committee not accepting you. In fact it may work in your favor as a student who has clearly thrived in another field.

Again, I would seriously consider the ramifications of switching careers this at this point. There are a lot of factors that should be in play, such as the debt you've accumulated (if any), whether you are in a relationship and how this would affect that, and most importantly, what you don't like about medicine that is making you want to leave. While some people like law school (I enjoyed my experience) it is a lot of work and you may find that some of the reasons for not liking medicine will apply similarly to not liking law. Maybe write out a list and speak with attorney's to see if a career in law will actually satisfy whatever it is that you feel like you're missing in medicine.

All that being said, with your GPA at a top school and a 170+ LSAT score, you would be looking at good odds with the top schools and perhaps some decent scholarship money at the lower T14 schools.

[Bingo_Bongo]

You seem like a smart guy/gal, and it seems like you've already done your homework, so I apologize if this is repeating a really basic fact that you already know, but law school admissions focus almost entirely on graduate GPA and LSAT score (different from med school). Everything else is a "soft" factor and doesn't really do much to elevate your application beyond a few brownie points.

In terms of how law schools will interpret the fact that you're a physician: I can't imagine that being anything other than tremendously positive. It's still a soft that won't get you into good schools by itself, but I'd imagine it be a pretty weighty soft. Law schools love diversity of backgrounds, and having a medical doctor present in classes would do a lot to enrich everyone else's experiences (especially in classes like torts, where you're learning about med malpractice). If I was on an admission committee, I think I would be inclined to extend you a better scholarship offer than somebody else who wasn't a physician if your GPA and LSAT were good enough to get you into the school. And I'd be inclined to admit you even if your undergraduate GPA and LSAT were below the median.

In terms of you looking like your "fickle and just switching careers because I don't have [your] sh*t together", I don't think it does. A lot of people change careers. In my law school class we had a middle aged former police officer, two college professors, and an experienced psychologist to name just a few of the people with existing careers. You'll find most law students are either K-JD or their only work experience is insignificant short-term service industry or undergrad campus jobs, but there are a fair number of professionals who go to law school to change careers.

Even if it did make you look fickle, law schools wouldn't care less. They're not employers looking for a loyal employee who will be with them for 20+ years. They're a school who is primarily concerned with (a) your ability to understand the complex information that you will be taught, (b) your ability to elevate the school's reputation; and (c) your ability to pass the bar and get a job within ten months of graduation (since they have to report this information and it gets factored into rankings). That's really all. They couldn't care less if you're fickle and end up becoming a bee keeper a year after you graduate.

And congrats on med school. If I were you, I probably personally stick to being a physician. That actually seems far more rewarding and better paying that what most attorneys do.

[Dcc617]

I've decided I don't enjoy medicine and I don't see myself pursuing this career for my life.

I mention this because I think I can definitely get a 170 or higher on the LSAT (when I first took a practice LSAT back in college cold I scored in the 160s).

Will it look like I'm fickle and just switching careers because I don't have my sh*t together?

Do you want to be a lawyer? I pulled out quotes from the OP that suggest that maybe you don't want to, and instead are falling into it. I'm asking because a law degree is not the most flexible degree, and generally people should only get it if they actively want to be a lawyer. If you think you want to be a lawyer, why? What makes you think that? You may have solid reasons, but on the forum we see a lot of people who want to be lawyers because they make a lot of money, or they've always liked arguing, or it seems glamorous on TV. A lot of people decide to go to law school as a default option, which is not the best idea because it's not the most flexible degree.

Your GPA will probably keep you out of HYS, but otherwise you can get in anywhere if you score highly enough on the LSAT. It's hard to give a sense of your chances without an actual score though.

[dabigchina]

You know the mind numbing paperwork that physicians hate to fill out?

That's basically 100% of our job as lawyers.

Stay in medicine. Your future self will thank you.

Maybe you aren't a fan of the shitty work life balance of being a surgeon?

It's even worse for lawyers. Imagine never knowing when you'll have a procedure scheduled. That's basically 100% of my practice as a corporate specialist.

Being a resident sucks, but my understanding is that it gets a LOT better after you become attending. It doesn't get easier for most lawyers. Our lives just get more and more stressful as we get more senior and we get more responsibility.

[Dbate_2019]

I've decided I don't enjoy medicine and I don't see myself pursuing this career for my life.

I mention this because I think I can definitely get a 170 or higher on the LSAT (when I first took a practice LSAT back in college cold I scored in the 160s).

Will it look like I'm fickle and just switching careers because I don't have my sh*t together?

Do you want to be a lawyer? I pulled out quotes from the OP that suggest that maybe you don't want to, and instead are falling into it. I'm asking because a law degree is not the most flexible degree, and generally people should only get it if they actively want to be a lawyer. If you think you want to be a lawyer, why? What makes you think that? You may have solid reasons, but on the forum we see a lot of people who want to be lawyers because they make a lot of money, or they've always liked arguing, or it seems glamorous on TV. A lot of people decide to go to law school as a default option, which is not the best idea because it's not the most flexible degree.

Your GPA will probably keep you out of HYS, but otherwise you can get in anywhere if you score highly enough on the LSAT. It's hard to give a sense of your chances without an actual score though.

The primary reason I want to be a lawyer is that I find law as a subject matter interesting. I don't care about money. In my current career, I'm guaranteed to get a job paying $400k+ in a few years. We are literally overwhelmed with job openings and recruiters constantly chasing us. In medicine you are guaranteed success, if you can just slog through all the bullshit. But I don't think staying in a career is worth it just for money. Additionally, the practice of medicine is actually extremely unfulfilling. The vast majority of doctors recommend people against this career path and I would 100% never do this, if I could go back in time. Money is not worth being unhappy for 20+ years.

My primary interest in law stems from my interest in public policy. Ideally, I would like to eventually work on healthcare policy. Lawyers make the policy decisions in america--not physicians. But I also find torts and liability very interesting. During my ICU rotations, we had the opportunity to review local malpractice cases and it was 100x more interesting than taking care of patients in the ICU. Medicine, despite all the bullshit glamor on television, is literally doing the exact same thing over and over again for your entire career. You follow guidelines and there is zero creativity and even less thinking involved. And there's really no reward for doing a good job. As an example, I was on a team that LITERALLY saved a guy's life after he was in a car accident. Once we got him off the ventilator, he was rude nasty piece of shit. He wasn't appreciative at all and he had no idea how close to death he was. This patient is the norm in medicine. Everyone demands that physicians are perfect and they are entitled pieces of shit. The vast majority of doctors grow to despise patients and to despise their careers.

Look at all the evidence:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-being ... profession

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-u-s-s- ... 1409325361

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/doctors- ... _n_1464663

[dvlthndr]

Are you dissatisfied with the entire practice of medicine, or just fed up with your residency?

Being dissatisfied with your current job isn't a good reason to get a law degree -- even if you wind up on a generous scholarship.

Unless you have a clear goal in mind (e.g., you always dreamed of litigating pharmaceutical patents), a J.D. is a bad idea.

[barkschool]

OP, we can swap debt and professions if you’d like.

I don’t think making the jump to be an attorney just because you’re qualified to do so (as other have said, the qualifications are graduating college, the lsat, and a heartbeat) is a bright idea.

Maybe you’ll feel fulfilled as a lawyer, but for most folks in the profession that’s just not the case.

If you’ve got debt from med school, it’s unlikely you’ll ever pay that off as an attorney.

[Bingo_Bongo]

The vast majority of doctors recommend people against this career path and I would 100% never do this, if I could go back in time. Money is not worth being unhappy for 20+ years

. . .

Everyone demands that physicians are perfect and they are entitled pieces of shit. The vast majority of doctors grow to despise patients and to despise their careers.

Look at all the evidence:

It's funny, because you can just replace "doctors" and "physicians" with "lawyers" and "patients" with "clients" in your above quote, and the vast majority of lawyers in American would agree. Maybe it's just that most professionals don't like their work.

A lot of lawyers grow to despise their clients, too, probably for the same reasons. For some reason, a lot of clients tend to think they know a lot better than you (even in areas where they're 100% objectively wrong about basic legal principals); they won't listen to your advice; they'll make the same mistake 100 times and stupidly dig themselves into a impossible to undig situation, and then demand you undig them (and then get pissed when you explain that you can't, and their best course of action is to agree to a plea or settlement).

Back when I was still in private practice, I had a scourge of clients googling stuff, getting really incorrect (or general) information not applicable to the jurisdiction, and then asking why I wasn't doing that. Yeah, clients can be annoying.

[RedPurpleBlue]

I think a lot of folk in this thread are really struggling to understand that many doctors truly dislike their practice. Being a doctor is not an objectively better outcome. If you hate what you do, it really doesn't matter that you're making $400k and have insane employment stability. I feel like a lot of the people who idealize and fantasize about being a physician are the type who are miserable doing anything and are just chasing what sounds like an easy paycheck and a prestigious career. They have very little to no grasp of the realities of being a physician.

That all said, as others have pointed out, being a lawyer is also very tough on the soul and frequently for less money (though that doesn't sound like a big worry to you). I'd first look at the possibility of getting an MPH or MPP with your MD and transitioning into policy work from there, or just try to transition into policy work with an MD. Another area you might want to look into is hospital administration. You won't need an additional degree for that, even if it might be preferred. I'd only get a JD if you want to become a law professor or do some form of IP/toxic tort/other science/medicine related litigation.

[Dcc617]

just try to transition into policy work with an MD. Another area you might want to look into is hospital administration. You won't need an additional degree for that, even if it might be preferred. I'd only get a JD if you want to become a law professor or do some form of IP/toxic tort/other science/medicine related litigation.

I agree with this. Especially if you want to do policy work, you likely already have the degrees for it.

[perfunctory]

To chime in, with OP's credentials, he/she can probably do high-level legal work, i.e., appellate work in the healthcare field, and not deal with frustrating clients in personal injury/torts. Will probably get sizable scholarships. Maybe try it out, and if you don't like it, drop out after a semester.

[QContinuum]

just try to transition into policy work with an MD. Another area you might want to look into is hospital administration. You won't need an additional degree for that, even if it might be preferred. I'd only get a JD if you want to become a law professor or do some form of IP/toxic tort/other science/medicine related litigation.

I agree with this. Especially if you want to do policy work, you likely already have the degrees for it.

Thirding this. There is no need for OP to pursue any additional degree (let alone a J.D.) to enter the policy world or do healthcare administration - the M.D. is more than impressive enough. And even to the extent that an additional credential might be helpful, an MPH/MPP/even MBA would likely be more helpful for those healthcare-adjacent jobs than a J.D.

OP should only pursue a J.D. if s/he wants to practice law.

During my ICU rotations, we had the opportunity to review local malpractice cases and it was 100x more interesting than taking care of patients in the ICU. Medicine, despite all the bullshit glamor on television, is literally doing the exact same thing over and over again for your entire career.

I don't think that's a good comparison, though. "Reviewing local malpractice cases" is kinda the legal equivalent of Grand Rounds: A synopsis of a particularly interesting/informative case. It's not informative to compare "legal Grand Rounds" to the day-to-day slog of clinical practice. You're comparing the highlights of legal practice with the lowlights of medical practice.

You follow guidelines and there is zero creativity and even less thinking involved. And there's really no reward for doing a good job. As an example, I was on a team that LITERALLY saved a guy's life after he was in a car accident. Once we got him off the ventilator, he was rude nasty piece of shit. He wasn't appreciative at all and he had no idea how close to death he was. This patient is the norm in medicine.

To be fair, there is often little creativity in law. The majority of legal work is just dotting the i's and crossing the t's. And many, many clients are also rude, demanding and entitled. Maybe even more so because an injured patient lying in a hospital bed is unlikely to be able to credibly threaten to walk out and switch to a different hospital. In contrast, it's pretty easy for even an incarcerated client to fire his lawyer.

[totesTheGoat]

If dealing with the public is the issue, switching from one service career to another service career won't solve the problem. The correct advice is already in the thread. If policy is your goal, skip the JD and get a MPP.