I'm SUPER worried that adcomms will bin my application because I am a non-trad student. Please read! Forum

[yorkville]

Hi guys! I am really worried that admissions committees will take one look at my application and bin it. Here goes:

After my 2nd year of undergrad, I moved to another country and built a successful business. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I would go to law school when I was 19, but here I am at 30 wanting to go (and have been wanting to go for the past 4 or so years). Before leaving the US I had one semester with a bunch of unauthorized withdrawals because of it. They cannot be removed and they are punitive.

So, I'm back in school and in theory I could graduate next semester if I wanted to, then study for the LSAT and get on with my life. However, with those 7 credits of F equivalents from 11 years ago my GPA is WRECKED. It's doubly hard for me because before then - and after then - I was a straight A student. The only thing I can do if I want to get my GPA up is stave off graduation from my school and continue to get good grades, somehow. So I am choosing to enroll in another B.A. program at another school (cheaper) before graduation.

I am paying out of pocket and it could literally the difference between me graduating now with a 3.4 or a 3.8 if I stick it out. I'm not in a rush to get to law school, but I want to mitigate any sort of incredulity that adcomms will feel during my application. Is it better to take my licks and graduate now or continue on and get the higher grade but go a non-traditional route to get it? Am I doing the right thing? Is what I am doing actually going to hurt more than help me? I want to be honest on my application because I don't know how to spin "I messed up when I was 19, so now I'm doubling up and I specifically chose a school that gives A+."

Essentially, what I am asking is: will adcomms think I am doing "too much" or trying to "work the system" and bin my application? Personally, I think it's scandalous that your entire undergraduate history is taken into consideration for law school rather than your graduating GPA, but that's a whole other discussion.

[cavalier1138]

I'm really confused about the timeline here. How many years of undergrad have you completed so far, including your semester of withdrawals? What's your current GPA? How many more semesters would you need to complete in order to see a 0.4 increase in your GPA?

Being non-traditional has nothing to do with it. Your semester of punitive withdrawals is the red flag for admissions, but it's not clear that you need to do that much to overcome it. Based on your only prior posts here, you're interested in trusts and estates, which is a very localized practice area. You don't need (or even want, really) a T13 degree to do that kind of work. So there may be no real reason for you to stay an extra two years in undergrad if the only thing you'll get out of it is a GPA that would only make a difference at schools you don't need to attend.

[yorkville]

Thank you so much for your reply! I truly appreciate it.

So, I've been out of undergrad since 2008. Then I moved abroad and started to go back to school roughly 1.5-2 years ago. I'm just now finishing up my actual first undergraduate degree and if I wanted to right now I could graduate next semester (I believe I only have 9 actual credits left).

However, for the past almost year I have been "doubling up" and attending two schools concurrently. I am not sure if this is hurting me or if it will help me for the GPA boost. If I wanted to get the full benefit of the second BA, I'd be in school for another year and a half which to me in terms of time is not a problem.

I'm not *completely* sold on tax or trusts and estates which is why I want to cast the widest net possible. Basically, I just want to know if what I am doing will hurt me more than help! I can graduate in 9 credits or so with a 3.4 or I can take the next year and potentially get up to a 3.8 which, given my grade trends, is very probable.

[cavalier1138]

So you're attending two schools to get two degrees instead of double-majoring?

That won't strike adcomms as gaming the system. It might strike them as extremely strange and wasteful, but it's not gaming the system. It won't alter your LSAC GPA calculation, unless you graduate from one institution first. Once you've earned a bachelor's degree, your LSAC GPA is set in stone. So if you believe you're going to get good grades at both institutions, you need to earn both degrees at the same time in order to get the benefit of all those grades.

Also, it sounds like your math is off on your GPA. I'm not sure how it would be possible to use a single year to go from a 3.4 to a 3.8, because it sounds like your 3.4 includes the 7 punitive withdrawals (and whatever your grades were for the time prior to those withdrawals). If that's the case, a single year's worth of credits, even if they're straight As, probably wouldn't be enough to make that dramatic a difference.

[yorkville]

Thanks!

My math actually is slightly off--my GPA is more like a 3.5 right now. I would be taking roughly a year and a half at both institutions which could bring me up to about a 3.78. I rounded off for good measure

I just don't want to do anything that will make them automatically bin my application! If I can explain this in a GPA addendum, do you think it'll be okay?

[cavalier1138]

If I can explain this in a GPA addendum, do you think it'll be okay?

If "this" refers to your semester of punitive withdrawals, then you should write a short addendum clearly and succinctly explaining the reason behind the withdrawals. You're not going to get automatically rejected based on that semester, especially if your LSAC GPA is actually a 3.8.

[yorkville]

By "this" I meant all the extra work I'm doing. How do I even explain that?

[cavalier1138]

By "this" I meant all the extra work I'm doing. How do I even explain that?

I wouldn't bother. You went to college. You stopped going to college. Now you're going to college again. It's definitely weird that you decided to attend two schools at once, but it's not something that you need to write an addendum for (and I have no idea what explanation you would give that makes it less weird).

[Npret]

Why are you going to two schools at once? I don’t follow any of the decisions you are making as good decisions.

[yorkville]

To get the most A+'s I can in the shortest amount of time.

[cavalier1138]

To get the most A+'s I can in the shortest amount of time.

Is this school an actual university? Or is it a Trump University sort of deal?

[Npret]

To get the most A+'s I can in the shortest amount of time.

So you are taking full time credits at 2 different schools. Are you transferring your credits from one to the other?
Are you just doing this to raise your LSAT GPA?

How much is this costing?

[yorkville]

To get the most A+'s I can in the shortest amount of time.

Is this school an actual university? Or is it a Trump University sort of deal?

LOL, of course it's an actual university. They're both state schools.

[cavalier1138]

To get the most A+'s I can in the shortest amount of time.

Is this school an actual university? Or is it a Trump University sort of deal?

LOL, of course it's an actual university. They're both state schools.

Ok, this just sounds weird as hell (i.e. why not just attend the school that apparently gives out a ton of easy A+ grades?). But I wouldn't write an addendum, because there's nothing you could say that would make it sound reasonable. Fortunately, being weird isn't a bar to admission.

[Npret]

To get the most A+'s I can in the shortest amount of time.

Is this school an actual university? Or is it a Trump University sort of deal?

LOL, of course it's an actual university. They're both state schools.

Ok, this just sounds weird as hell (i.e. why not just attend the school that apparently gives out a ton of easy A+ grades?). But I wouldn't write an addendum, because there's nothing you could say that would make it sound reasonable. Fortunately, being weird isn't a bar to admission.

Not to be patronizing of OP, it’s their life, but my concern is OP will continue making odd/ poor decisions. I don’t exactly understand how they got to the place they are right now, although I admit it could possibly seem smart on paper- maybe being out of the country for long periods is a factor.

OP - you are all over the place. There is so much to consider here that it’s hard to cover it all.

Let’s start with what kind of law are you interested in and are you geographically flexible? How do you plan on paying for school?
Edit: I see it will be out of pocket. You need to understand the limitations of financial aid for law school.

[dabigchina]

OP - you are all over the place. There is so much to consider here that it’s hard to cover it all.

Let’s start with what kind of law are you interested in and are you geographically flexible? How do you plan on paying for school?

I've got a better one. OP: why are you trying to go to law school (and taking like 30+ credits of classes per semester to do so)? Why aren't you working at your successful business?

[nixy]

OP - you are all over the place. There is so much to consider here that it’s hard to cover it all.

Let’s start with what kind of law are you interested in and are you geographically flexible? How do you plan on paying for school?

I've got a better one. OP: why are you trying to go to law school (and taking like 30+ credits of classes per semester to do so)? Why aren't you working at your successful business?

People change careers all the time. Because the OP's business is successful doesn't mean they necessarily enjoy it/want to do it for the rest of their life. That part isn't really weird.

I too am really confused by 2 full time courseloads at different schools, and by the math re the GPA, but it is what it is, I guess. OP, it would help in spinning this if they're two different majors, one not available at the other school, and ideally related to each other, but in the end it doesn't really matter. The most important parts of your application are GPA and LSAT. I think your version of gaming the GPA seems a little extreme, but it's your choice. (I'd probably put the time into LSAT prep instead.) The only school where this really could be an issue is Yale, and no one can count on getting into Yale. "I fucked up when I was 19 but now I have my shit together" is actually a perfectly clear, sensible narrative.

[Npret]

OP you don’t have to answer this question - but what happened to you when you got those Fs and then left the country? You might possibly have a good reason for an addendum.

[albanach]

I'm not terribly concerned by the attending two schools simultaneously thing. I think it'd be quite reasonable to say that, as your subsequent grades demonstrate, your initial semester was an anomaly and you stacked courses to correct that in your LSAC GPA.

However, you go on to say you are around a 3.5. I'd stop where you are. If you can pull off straight A & A+ grades in two schools, you can master the LSAT. Go get a 170+ and go to a T14 school with $.



It seems to me that pursuing this is going to cost, in time and in tuition, more than you stand to benefit.



You get into marginally better schools and get an extra $50-70k in scholarships. But, presumably two more years at a state school costs something like $30k and then there's the lost potential earnings from those two years which are obviously over $20k/year.

Besides, hit the 99th percentile on the LSAT and you get a similar outcome:

[yorkville]

Wow! Thanks for the replies, everyone. I was away for the day and so I apologize for not responding sooner. Let me answer a few questions:

1. Why, if I have a successful business, do I want to go to law school?

For two reasons. The main one is that my business, while successful, has a shelf life. My industry is one that probably won't exist in 10 years so I have to think about transitioning to something else.

Second, what I do now is semi-law related. Through my work I have come to realize and have known for the past 4-6 years that I wanted to go to law school. I deal with many high net worth individuals, so trusts and estates and/or tax is a natural progression of what I do, but by no means am I sold on that fully!

2. What did I do for the semester that I got all F grades?

My mom had cancer. It basically consumed my life and I spent every single day (not exaggerating) at the hospital with her. At 19, I honestly could not have cared less about going to school with the prospect of my mom dying looming on the horizon. So, even though I was a straight A student before then I just said "fuck it" and stayed with my mom. When you're 19, you're not thinking about where your life will be 10 years in the future and if your unauthorized withdrawals will keep you from going to law school one day. Hell, I wasn't even thinking about withdrawing from class: I was just thinking about being with my mom while she was on a breathing machine. :-/ My mom had actually went into the hospital for a breathing issue, we found out she had two heart attacks, and then we found out she had cancer while she was in the ICU for weeks by that point. So, yeah. Not a good time in my life. Literally it felt like 10 things were thrown at me at once. Ultimately, she got better and I went abroad after that to start anew which I had been wanting to do for a while. Sadly she ended up passing away in 2016. I miss her every single day.

3. Why attend two schools concurrently?

Because the Fs so spectacularly ruined my GPA that if I want to just get this over with within the next 1.5-2.5 years I need to double up and buckle down like crazy. If I finish my degree now it's only 9 more credits which--even if I get all As--is not nearly enough to get me where I need to be, GPA-wise. Hence why I am trying to add another B.A.--it's simply more credits to add! I realize I messed up, so now I'm doubling up to fix it.

4. Why not just try studying for the LSAT now?

Honestly, I might just do that.

I'm from NYC and would love to stay in NYC though, so my top two are Columbia and NYU. I'm not prestige-obsessed, just trying to stay where I am from as I only have my dad and brother left now.

I'll answer any more questions you have!

[LawAndBehold]

Wow, OP. I’m sorry you went through all that. I really commend you for putting in all that effort. I hope you get what you want and I sincerely wish you the best.

[albanach]

4. Why not just try studying for the LSAT now?

Honestly, I might just do that.

I'm from NYC and would love to stay in NYC though, so my top two are Columbia and NYU. I'm not prestige-obsessed, just trying to stay where I am from as I only have my dad and brother left now.

I'll answer any more questions you have!

Just don't do that while still maintaining the double course load - the last thing you want is a couple of B's from further overstretching yourself.

[yorkville]

I know! I just have to decide if another potentially 2 years in college is worth it over studying for the LSAT hard. I'd been thinking about that even before posting...

[Npret]

I’m sorry for what you and your mom went through but be aware this information is very relevant to admission committees. Everyone understands being overwhelmed by the illness of a parent like you describe. This will add depth and clarity to your application, but you didn’t even mention it until I asked. Fair enough, it’s very personal - just be aware that you have material for a good addendum about your one bad semester.

OP- I think you are being too hard on yourself. You have the basis for a good application with a good LSAT score. You sound driven and determined- but remember to give yourself credit for what you’ve accomplished.

I believe in you OP. Just don’t take a harder path than necessary to reach your goals.

[Npret]

I know! I just have to decide if another potentially 2 years in college is worth it over studying for the LSAT hard. I'd been thinking about that even before posting...

In my opinion- The answer to that is no. It’s not worth it. Take the LSAT and do well. Don’t waste more time in undergrad just for grades.