WUSTL: The next T14 Forum

[Kiwilaw]

I’ve been watching the rankings for quite some time, and WUSTL has risen at a faster rate through the rankings than any other law school in the top 30. There are 2 reasons for this:

1. They play the game more. WUSTL accepts virtually every student with either an LSAT at or above median or a GPA at or above median. Looking at LSN, even a student with a 2.0/169 has an excellent chance of admission. They rarely reject people, waitlisting virtually all of their non competitive applicants. This is presumably so that they can pull in a few at full tuition depending on how many applicants above both medians commit to attending. Furthermore, they are more than willing to shrink their class size to improve LSAT and GPA medians, as they have done this year to raise their median LSAT.

2. They are flush with cash. Without a doubt, WUSTL offers more scholarship money to high LSAT scorers than any other law school. On LSN, virtually all applicants with a GPA above 3.2 and an LSAT of 170+ have been offered full or near-full tuition scholarships. Applicants above both medians typically receive stipends. How can a law school that is one or two spots ahead in the rankings attract students when WUSTL is offering them a full scholarship to attend?

I’m not sure I can endorse reason 1, but to be honest I’m rooting for WUSTL because of reason 2. If higher ranked schools can’t keep up with WUSTL’s scholarships, then WUSTL deserves to surpass them. Hopefully this increases pressure on schools to up scholarship amounts.

Watch for WUSTL to rise in rankings once again this year. They are one of only a few schools to raise median LSAT this year in the T20 (alongside UVA and maybe Vanderbilt?) despite a slightly weaker applicant pool. Thoughts?

[cavalier1138]

Watch for WUSTL to rise in rankings once again this year. They are one of only a few schools to raise median LSAT this year in the T20 (alongside UVA and maybe Vanderbilt?) despite a slightly weaker applicant pool. Thoughts?

My thoughts are as follows:

-This doesn't matter.

-The "T14" designation indicated that there were 14 schools that had always been ranked at the top of the USNWR list. The reason that many people on this board now use "T13" is that Georgetown dropped to 15 two(?) years ago, effectively destroying the meaning of the T14.

-Although USNWR uses LSAT/GPA stats as part of its ranking system, it also uses employment stats. WashU has seen significant gains in that area over the past few years, but so have most schools in the 15-50 range. So unless UT and UCLA take a significant nosedive this year, I don't see WashU overtaking them. Also, bear in mind that WashU games its medians, but that gaming results in a really wide gulf between the median and the 25th, which will impact its place in the rankings.

-To that last point about "gaming," the scholarships are part of that game. USNWR doesn't really consider scholarship awards in the ranking calculation (financial aid expenditures are a very small part of the rankings methodology).

But this all goes back to the first point: it doesn't matter. USNWR rankings are only important in very broad strokes. Employment outcomes are far more relevant for applicants, and given its generosity with scholarships, WashU is often a good choice for anyone looking to work in the Midwest after graduation.

[MaxMcMann]

Out of curiosity I went on lstreports to compare them to Georgetown and UT and I'm really confused how US News rankings work because Wash U seems to outdo UT on the relevant stats.

[QContinuum]

Out of curiosity I went on lstreports to compare them to Georgetown and UT and I'm really confused how US News rankings work because Wash U seems to outdo UT on the relevant stats.

USNWR rankings don't perfectly track employment. I believe (IIRC) the strongest T20 is Vandy, followed by Georgetown, then WUSTL.

[cavalier1138]

Out of curiosity I went on lstreports to compare them to Georgetown and UT and I'm really confused how US News rankings work because Wash U seems to outdo UT on the relevant stats.

USNWR rankings don't perfectly track employment. I believe (IIRC) the strongest T20 is Vandy, followed by Georgetown, then WUSTL.

Yeah, it's also important to note that USNWR considers peer reputation, which makes it difficult for the rankings in the top to shift that dramatically from year to year. And there are a few factors that would be invisible on LST, like the student:teacher ratio, etc. Which is why the USNWR rankings aren't useful for comparing two schools in a similar rankings band.

[Jmart082]

Out of curiosity I went on lstreports to compare them to Georgetown and UT and I'm really confused how US News rankings work because Wash U seems to outdo UT on the relevant stats.

USNWR rankings don't perfectly track employment. I believe (IIRC) the strongest T20 is Vandy, followed by Georgetown, then WUSTL.

Yeah, it's also important to note that USNWR considers peer reputation, which makes it difficult for the rankings in the top to shift that dramatically from year to year. And there are a few factors that would be invisible on LST, like the student:teacher ratio, etc. Which is why the USNWR rankings aren't useful for comparing two schools in a similar rankings band.

The rankings factor in peer reputation and other intangibles which make the the T-14 quite static over time (see WUSTL's longtime confinement to #18 for proof). WUSTL is able to offer large scholarships by enrolling as many foreign LLMs as humanly possible (there were hundreds upon hundreds of them at graduation) and investing heavily in online programs (cash grabs). It's only a matter of time before other schools catch on to the aforementioned strategy. It's been awhile, but the CSO there was essentially a revolving door of advisors and name recognition outside the Midwest is a limiting factor for the school advancing in the rankings. Finally, as someone already stated, these rankings do not matter and do not capture the heart of what everyone really cares about at the end of the day, which is career outcomes and job placement.

[nealric]

This may surprise some people, but the T14 (or T13 if you prefer) has little to do with U.S. News or any other ranking publication. There are 13-15 schools that consistently get the top applicants who they place into the top job opportunities. That would be true even of US News stopped publishing a ranking, or if they decided to completely scramble the list for grins.

So the question is whether WUSTL will consistently get the top students into the top opportunities. Top students can be bought (up to a point), but placement is harder. True, placement has gotten better in recent years, but so has the economy (and by extension, placement everywhere). During the 2008 Downturn, schools like WUSTL tended to see the largest percentage drop in placement as employers retreated to only a handful of known quantity schools come recruitment time. Many East and West Coast employers still don't know WSTUL from George Washington from the University of Washington. I don't see much evidence that will change soon.

[Jmart082]

This may surprise some people, but the T14 (or T13 if you prefer) has little to do with U.S. News or any other ranking publication. There are 13-15 schools that consistently get the top applicants who they place into the top job opportunities. That would be true even of US News stopped publishing a ranking, or if they decided to completely scramble the list for grins.

So the question is whether WUSTL will consistently get the top students into the top opportunities. Top students can be bought (up to a point), but placement is harder. True, placement has gotten better in recent years, but so has the economy (and by extension, placement everywhere). During the 2008 Downturn, schools like WUSTL tended to see the largest percentage drop in placement as employers retreated to only a handful of known quantity schools come recruitment time. Many East and West Coast employers still don't know WSTUL from George Washington from the University of Washington. I don't see much evidence that will change soon.

This, more than anything else. People always ask me what the hell I was doing in Washington State and whether I hated the culture of D.C., neither of which I have any opinion on.

[LaChusa2020]

This is what WUSTL did with the college rankings but, as others have noted, it’s much harder to do with law school rankings because of the emphasis on reputation score and the insular self-perpetuating view of prestige and established networks in the legal world. WUSTL’s location is also a barrier. I’ve practiced in biglaw and clerked in more than one major legal market and I’ve met one WUSTL grad but many UT, UCLA and USC grads. In the networks I’ve been in GW and Fordham are much more recognized brands. And also run into a good amount of Emory, Tulane and UC Hastings. Not saying WUSTL is not a good and selective law school but it’s not about to be a T14 school or provide much of its class T14 national opportunities.

[nealric]

This is what WUSTL did with the college rankings but, as others have noted, it’s much harder to do with law school rankings because of the emphasis on reputation score and the insular self-perpetuating view of prestige and established networks in the legal world. WUSTL’s location is also a barrier. I’ve practiced in biglaw and clerked in more than one major legal market and I’ve met one WUSTL grad but many UT, UCLA and USC grads. In the networks I’ve been in GW and Fordham are much more recognized brands. And also run into a good amount of Emory, Tulane and UC Hastings. Not saying WUSTL is not a good and selective law school but it’s not about to be a T14 school or provide much of its class T14 national opportunities.

I'd also add that WUSTL's undergraduate rise is mostly U.S. News rankings only. Meaning, they've managed to obtain a "top 20" spot in those rankings by carefully tailoring their practices to score well under its methodology, but they do not maintain the same national reputation as similarly ranked schools like Berkely, UVA, and Georgetown or even schools a few slots down like NYU.

[The Lsat Airbender]

How do y'all pronounce WUSTL?

I go with something like "woostle"

[Rooks]

How do y'all pronounce WUSTL?

I go with something like "woostle"

i always go with "wuhssle" (the t seems it should somehow be silent?)

but ya, wustl has decent numbers but from a west coast perspective, there is likely no difference between it or a school like Emory. After Stanford///Berkeley//USC/UCLA/UCI//possibly UT/Vandy (and of course the rest of the t14) pretty much every T1 east of Mississippi school is treated equally.

[Jmart082]

How do y'all pronounce WUSTL?

I go with something like "woostle"

i always go with "wuhssle" (the t seems it should somehow be silent?)

but ya, wustl has decent numbers but from a west coast perspective, there is likely no difference between it or a school like Emory. After Stanford///Berkeley//USC/UCLA/UCI//possibly UT/Vandy (and of course the rest of the t14) pretty much every T1 east of Mississippi school is treated equally.

The folks in the administration always pronounced it WOO-STUHL, but everyone just calls it WashU.