rejected at Harvard: try to transfer or reapply next cycle? Forum

[Dcc617]

Take the Hamilton and run? Whatever marginal benefit for DC is way outweighed by $150K+.

[The Lsat Airbender]

I recently got rejected from Harvard (with a 4.0 / 174, ouch) but have a Hamilton at Columbia. The Hamilton is amazing but I really want to work in DC so I'd strongly prefer Harvard, and I'm trying to decide if I should try to transfer to Harvard after 1L or work a year and apply again.

Columbia does fine in DC biglaw, lmao, and it's not like it's a sure thing from Harvard on the other hand. You should just go to Columbia.

I'm leaning toward matriculating at Columbia since the Hamilton is too good to pass up but, hypothetically, how hard would it be to transfer to Harvard?

Not terribly hard, but objectively stupid because at that point you'd not only be giving up free tuition but you'd also be giving up 1L grades that would make your ostensible goal (working in DC) much easier to achieve. Anyone with the grades to transfer within the T6 is almost certainly better served by staying put. HLS took literally 0 transfers from Columbia last year, even about 50 CLS students would have had very competitive applications.

Do they consider LSAT / uGPA or just 1L grades? Would being willing to give up a Hamilton be a point in my favor for transfer admissions?

A normal no to the first question and a massive no to the second question.

[Npret]

If you could transfer to Harvard, then you’ve done well enough at Columbia to get DC. I think you might have misunderstood your other thread. Harvard doesn’t automatically guarantee you DC. It’s super competitive.

You want assurance you will get a job in the most competitive market. How can anyone promise you that you will get the job?

I’m cautious about DC because every year there are students that bid DC only and end up striking out.

[uncoverelearning]

Thanks for the input, so I'll rule out applying next year (kinda hurts because I feel like my chances would have been really good).

To humor my being objectively stupid though, how can I maximize my chances for a successful transfer? Will a drop in my uGPA hurt me? Is being at CCN an advantage over lower-ranked schools, or does school ranking not matter like for 0L?

[Npret]

Thanks for the input, so I'll rule out applying next year (kinda hurts because I feel like my chances would have been really good).

To humor my being objectively stupid though, how can I maximize my chances for a successful transfer? Will a drop in my uGPA hurt me? Is being at CCN an advantage over lower-ranked schools, or does school ranking not matter like for 0L?

Why would your chances be better next year if you were a flat out reject this year?

[The Lsat Airbender]

Top 25%ish grades at Columbia would probably suffice for transferring to Harvard. Which is why it's so unusual - top quarter at CLS means your opportunities are better than they'd be as a random HLS student. People only ever do this sort of "lateral transfer" for personal reasons (e.g., RBG transferred from Harvard to Columbia to be with her spouse), and they do it with the knowledge that they are hurting their job prospects somewhat.

[uncoverelearning]

Thanks for the input, so I'll rule out applying next year (kinda hurts because I feel like my chances would have been really good).

To humor my being objectively stupid though, how can I maximize my chances for a successful transfer? Will a drop in my uGPA hurt me? Is being at CCN an advantage over lower-ranked schools, or does school ranking not matter like for 0L?

Why would your chances be better next year if you were a flat out reject this year?

My thinking is that there may have been some anomaly this year (For example I read about a large increase in 175+ LSAT scores, with mine being 174. And perhaps I had a lackluster interview.). Most people with my numbers have historically gotten in, and my softs are strong enough for a Hamilton. If someone can convince me that I'd most likely not get in if I reapplied, I'd be extremely grateful because it would make my decision much easier.

[Mullens]

Going to Columbia on a Hamilton and then transferring to Harvard, where you’d have the pleasure of paying more money for a negative impact on your job/clerkship goals, would be an incredibly bad decision. If I interviewed you at my firm and your reasoning for the transfer was anything other than compelling personal reasons in Boston, I’d autoding you for bad judgment.

[cavalier1138]

If someone can convince me that I'd most likely not get in if I reapplied, I'd be extremely grateful because it would make my decision much easier.

It shouldn't, unless you know you'd get substantial financial aid. Even then, it probably shouldn't change anything, because the Hamilton will still make your total COA lower.

You want a guaranteed outcome that can never be guaranteed, so you just have to make peace with that.

[QContinuum]

If you could transfer to Harvard, then you’ve done well enough at Columbia to get DC. I think you might have misunderstood your other thread. Harvard doesn’t automatically guarantee you DC. It’s super competitive.

You want assurance you will get a job in the most competitive market. How can anyone promise you that you will get the job?

I’m cautious about DC because every year there are students that bid DC only and end up striking out.

I fear this is my fault. In the other thread I made an erroneous remark that if OP wanted to "guarantee" landing D.C., they needed YSH. That remark was wrong, and I retract it. I am comfortable saying that YS would "guarantee" D.C. regardless of grades. I am also comfortable saying that it is somewhat easier to land D.C. from Harvard than from Columbia, but Harvard by no means guarantees D.C. Someone in the bottom 10% at Harvard, for instance, is not going to land D.C. My Harvard friends usually say that thanks to HLS's huge classes, it'd actually be better to be bottom 10% at CCN than bottom 10% at Harvard.

I agree with the consensus ITT that OP would be extraordinarily foolish to give up a Hamilton in order to reapply to Harvard on the basis that they want D.C. BigLaw.

Thanks for the input, so I'll rule out applying next year (kinda hurts because I feel like my chances would have been really good).

To humor my being objectively stupid though, how can I maximize my chances for a successful transfer? Will a drop in my uGPA hurt me? Is being at CCN an advantage over lower-ranked schools, or does school ranking not matter like for 0L?

As others ITT have pointed out, if you do well enough in 1L at Columbia to be a competitive candidate for transferring to Harvard, you have done well enough to assure landing D.C. BigLaw. There would be zero reason to transfer (and give up your Hamilton in the process!) at that point.

[appind]

Top 25%ish grades at Columbia would probably suffice for transferring to Harvard. Which is why it's so unusual - top quarter at CLS means your opportunities are better than they'd be as a random HLS student. People only ever do this sort of "lateral transfer" for personal reasons (e.g., RBG transferred from Harvard to Columbia to be with her spouse), and they do it with the knowledge that they are hurting their job prospects somewhat.

source for the bolded? col class is like 400 people so does it mean that any of top 100 would have strong odds of getting a transfer to H if they wanted?

[QContinuum]

Top 25%ish grades at Columbia would probably suffice for transferring to Harvard. Which is why it's so unusual - top quarter at CLS means your opportunities are better than they'd be as a random HLS student. People only ever do this sort of "lateral transfer" for personal reasons (e.g., RBG transferred from Harvard to Columbia to be with her spouse), and they do it with the knowledge that they are hurting their job prospects somewhat.

source for the bolded? col class is like 400 people so does it mean that any of top 100 would have strong odds of getting a transfer to H if they wanted?

I think it's difficult to say for sure, because so very few people ever apply to transfer from CLS to HLS that there's little to no data on what GPA/percentile is required to be accepted. Top quarter is probably a reasonable assumption. It might just as easily be top third, or top fifth, or top 15%, or even top 10%. We can probably assume median or below wouldn't be accepted. But in any case it just simply doesn't make sense. If you're top quarter at Columbia (or top third, fifth, 15%, 10%, whatever), you're almost certainly better served by staying at Columbia and deepening your existing connections there than transferring to Harvard and starting all over from ground zero with the professors and your new classmates. There are no doors that are closed to high-GPA Columbia students. Much of the initial edge of Harvard vs. CCN - (somewhat) greater downside protection in case of mediocre/bad law school grades - is obviated once we limit ourselves to only looking at top-performing CCN students.

[appind]

I think it's difficult to say for sure, because so very few people ever apply to transfer from CLS to HLS that there's little to no data on what GPA/percentile is required to be accepted. Top quarter is probably a reasonable assumption. It might just as easily be top third, or top fifth, or top 15%, or even top 10%. We can probably assume median or below wouldn't be accepted. But in any case it just simply doesn't make sense. If you're top quarter at Columbia (or top third, fifth, 15%, 10%, whatever), you're almost certainly better served by staying at Columbia and deepening your existing connections there than transferring to Harvard and starting all over from ground zero with the professors and your new classmates. There are no doors that are closed to high-GPA Columbia students. Much of the initial edge of Harvard vs. CCN - (somewhat) greater downside protection in case of mediocre/bad law school grades - is obviated once we limit ourselves to only looking at top-performing CCN students.

even if you limit it to only 10-15%, that's 40-60, which is a lot of people to have a strong shot of getting into H if they wanted as far as the question of being able to get transfer to H is concerned (that transfer may not make sense for them notwithstanding).

[Npret]

Thanks for the input, so I'll rule out applying next year (kinda hurts because I feel like my chances would have been really good).

To humor my being objectively stupid though, how can I maximize my chances for a successful transfer? Will a drop in my uGPA hurt me? Is being at CCN an advantage over lower-ranked schools, or does school ranking not matter like for 0L?

Why would your chances be better next year if you were a flat out reject this year?

My thinking is that there may have been some anomaly this year (For example I read about a large increase in 175+ LSAT scores, with mine being 174. And perhaps I had a lackluster interview.). Most people with my numbers have historically gotten in, and my softs are strong enough for a Hamilton. If someone can convince me that I'd most likely not get in if I reapplied, I'd be extremely grateful because it would make my decision much easier.

Top scores (175 and up) are down this year ( -22%.) https://report.lsac.org/VolumeSummaryOr ... ormat.aspx

If you want to give up a Hamilton to reapply at a school that didn’t even waitlist you, that’s your choice. I haven’t heard of anyone doing this before but it’s unlikely Columbia will accept you again.

[AJordan]

You have a Hamilton, altogether one of the single best possible outcomes, several around here would probably call it THE best possible outcome. "I really want to work in DC" is not exactly convincing evidence in favor of giving that up for another shot at H. If you really want to work in DC, go work in DC. You don't need to go to law school at all to do that. I know people doing well in DC who barely graduated high school.

[cavalier1138]

even if you limit it to only 10-15%, that's 40-60, which is a lot of people to have a strong shot of getting into H if they wanted as far as the question of being able to get transfer to H is concerned (that transfer may not make sense for them notwithstanding).

A lot of people in the T13 (numerically speaking) could successfully apply for a Harvard transfer. Most of those people realize that it's pretty pointless, and most of them likely never thought of transferring to begin with.

I'm not sure what your point is. Do you think that Harvard wouldn't take someone outside the top 1% at Columbia as a transfer? Because that's categorically untrue.

[nixy]

I think it's difficult to say for sure, because so very few people ever apply to transfer from CLS to HLS that there's little to no data on what GPA/percentile is required to be accepted. Top quarter is probably a reasonable assumption. It might just as easily be top third, or top fifth, or top 15%, or even top 10%. We can probably assume median or below wouldn't be accepted. But in any case it just simply doesn't make sense. If you're top quarter at Columbia (or top third, fifth, 15%, 10%, whatever), you're almost certainly better served by staying at Columbia and deepening your existing connections there than transferring to Harvard and starting all over from ground zero with the professors and your new classmates. There are no doors that are closed to high-GPA Columbia students. Much of the initial edge of Harvard vs. CCN - (somewhat) greater downside protection in case of mediocre/bad law school grades - is obviated once we limit ourselves to only looking at top-performing CCN students.

even if you limit it to only 10-15%, that's 40-60, which is a lot of people to have a strong shot of getting into H if they wanted as far as the question of being able to get transfer to H is concerned (that transfer may not make sense for them notwithstanding).

They do each have a strong shot of getting into H if they wanted. Certainly H wouldn't accept all 40-60, but all 40-60 aren't going to apply. Saying someone out of that 40-60 has a strong chance isn't the same as saying that all of them would get in.

[RedPurpleBlue]

You have a Hamilton, altogether one of the single best possible outcomes, several around here would probably call it THE best possible outcome.

Not to nitpick, but Ruby is objectively the best outcome, because it also defrays cost of living. That being said, if you're not getting a Ruby, then Hamilton is easily the second best named-scholarship with Dillard being a close third. I'd take the Hamilton and run OP. I wouldn't even entertain the thought of transferring out of Columbia.

[Dcc617]

Also, DC is still tough out of Harvard. I did OCI in 2017 and there were people with good grades and credentials who only got like one offer or who struck out of DC. My understanding is that DC is tough for everyone.

[QContinuum]

You have a Hamilton, altogether one of the single best possible outcomes, several around here would probably call it THE best possible outcome.

Not to nitpick, but Ruby is objectively the best outcome, because it also defrays cost of living. That being said, if you're not getting a Ruby, then Hamilton is easily the second best named-scholarship with Dillard being a close third. I'd take the Hamilton and run OP. I wouldn't even entertain the thought of transferring out of Columbia.

The Vandy at NYU is probably about as good as the Hamilton at Columbia - but your overall point, that the Ruby is better, is sound.

[LSATWiz.com]

To correct something stated earlier, they do consider LSAT and UGPA for transfer applicants but the extent to which they consider these is debatable.

[SFSpartan]

Go to Columbia and never look back. There really is no reason to even try and transfer to Harvard - the amount of money you'll give up in doing so greatly outweighs the prestige difference between HLS and CLS.

[carsondalywashere]

even if you limit it to only 10-15%, that's 40-60, which is a lot of people to have a strong shot of getting into H if they wanted as far as the question of being able to get transfer to H is concerned (that transfer may not make sense for them notwithstanding).

A lot of people in the T13 (numerically speaking) could successfully apply for a Harvard transfer. Most of those people realize that it's pretty pointless, and most of them likely never thought of transferring to begin with.

I'm not sure what your point is. Do you think that Harvard wouldn't take someone outside the top 1% at Columbia as a transfer? Because that's categorically untrue.

This

People in the top quarter in the lower t13 "successfully" transfer to Harvard

[Lxwind]

Thanks for the input, so I'll rule out applying next year (kinda hurts because I feel like my chances would have been really good).

To humor my being objectively stupid though, how can I maximize my chances for a successful transfer? Will a drop in my uGPA hurt me? Is being at CCN an advantage over lower-ranked schools, or does school ranking not matter like for 0L?

Why would your chances be better next year if you were a flat out reject this year?

My thinking is that there may have been some anomaly this year (For example I read about a large increase in 175+ LSAT scores, with mine being 174. And perhaps I had a lackluster interview.). Most people with my numbers have historically gotten in, and my softs are strong enough for a Hamilton. If someone can convince me that I'd most likely not get in if I reapplied, I'd be extremely grateful because it would make my decision much easier.

Top scores (175 and up) are down this year ( -22%.) https://report.lsac.org/VolumeSummaryOr ... ormat.aspx

If you want to give up a Hamilton to reapply at a school that didn’t even waitlist you, that’s your choice. I haven’t heard of anyone doing this before but it’s unlikely Columbia will accept you again.

Yet the report led to by the link shows it's up 59.5%...?

[Npret]

Thanks for the input, so I'll rule out applying next year (kinda hurts because I feel like my chances would have been really good).

To humor my being objectively stupid though, how can I maximize my chances for a successful transfer? Will a drop in my uGPA hurt me? Is being at CCN an advantage over lower-ranked schools, or does school ranking not matter like for 0L?

Why would your chances be better next year if you were a flat out reject this year?

My thinking is that there may have been some anomaly this year (For example I read about a large increase in 175+ LSAT scores, with mine being 174. And perhaps I had a lackluster interview.). Most people with my numbers have historically gotten in, and my softs are strong enough for a Hamilton. If someone can convince me that I'd most likely not get in if I reapplied, I'd be extremely grateful because it would make my decision much easier.

Top scores (175 and up) are down this year ( -22%.) https://report.lsac.org/VolumeSummaryOr ... ormat.aspx

If you want to give up a Hamilton to reapply at a school that didn’t even waitlist you, that’s your choice. I haven’t heard of anyone doing this before but it’s unlikely Columbia will accept you again.

Yet the report led to by the link shows it's up 59.5%...?

No it doesn’t. Click on US LSAT scores and read the chart.
If that’s too difficult check my go to admissions source on data -Spivey - they have a blog post about it. They even have an intern updating data weekly or so as LSAC releases it. I have no clue where you could see the number 59.5%.

https://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/halfway/