Does every lawyer drown in debt? Forum

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QContinuum

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Re: Does every lawyer drown in debt?

Post by QContinuum » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:17 pm

nixy wrote:This boils down to personal preferences I think - I find the idea that you would put off getting married for ten years, if you otherwise wanted to get married, to avoid paying more on student loans, when the system is designed for you to be able to afford to make payments, sort of baffling and sad. Paying more than you originally intended isn’t necessarily a problem when the trade off is handling your personal life as you’d prefer.

My point about the 10 years was more that people have LOTS of time left in their careers after that, and people change careers all the time. Check in with the people on this site as to where they are career-wise 10 years from now and the majority are likely to be in something completely unanticipated.

I agree that overall minimizing debt is important and people shouldn’t treat PSLF/loan repayment as a panacea. I just think there can be a little too much scaremongering about PSLF.
No, nixy, I did not advise anyone to put off getting married for 10 years. I advised exactly the opposite - that putting off marriage until 35 is, in most cases, neither feasible nor desirable. Read my original post again carefully. My point was to caution 0Ls against assuming a "best-case" 10-year PSLF loan forgiveness scenario. In most cases folks will repay more - significantly more - than the minimum once you factor in career changes and marriage, one or both of which are very likely to happen to most folks within the 10-year PSLF timeframe. My point was that PSLF + LRAP isn't a magic bullet that makes student debt a nonfactor.

People can change careers, of course, but if you start out your career doing PI and spend the next 10 years doing PI, you're going to face some challenges transitioning out of PI. This is putting aside the fact that some folks may find - say, after doing 4 years of PI - that they would rather, I dunno, join a small family law or criminal defense practice or whatnot. If they have a heavy debt load and had been counting on PSLF, that option may not be open to them and they may be effectively "locked in" to PI for another 6 years after they otherwise would have left.

The irresponsible scaremongering about PSLF involves the claim, which pops up from time to time, that the program could be modified or terminated by the government at any time prior to forgiveness at the 10-year mark. That's not true. The program could be modified or terminated at any time for folks who have not yet started law school, but once folks are in, they are going to be able to stay in. The government can't just tell someone 5 years out of graduation that they're being booted out of PSLF. So I think that's where the scaremongering comes in. But I think it's equally important to combat the view that taking on debt doesn't matter because it'll all be forgiven anyway.

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Re: Does every lawyer drown in debt?

Post by Npret » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:42 pm

Has anyone here had their debt from law school forgiven under PSLF yet? I don’t remember any posts about it.
All I’ve read is scare reports about how difficult it is to get and how confusing the guidelines can be to follow.

I found an article where a lawyer helped someone get forgiveness. It sounds possible just complicated.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamminsky ... 630be15928

Then there was the lawsuit where people who were told they qualify, don’t actually qualify. It was the lawyers who worked for the ABA and the ABA itself. The education department says the letters confirming eligibility aren’t binding. Not sure of the current status.
https://www.americanbar.org/advocacy/go ... 2017/PSLF/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/30/busi ... wsuit.html
Here’s something from not for profits about issues.
https://nonprofitquarterly.org/2018/10/ ... -forgiven/

I remember from past discussions problems arise from unemployment because it interrupts 120 consecutive on time payments, not consolidating and not being on income based repayment.

It would be nice to hear from someone who was successful.

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cavalier1138

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Re: Does every lawyer drown in debt?

Post by cavalier1138 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:56 pm

My impression of the scare stories on PSLF is that most of the issue is lenders falsely claiming that borrowers were on the appropriate repayment plan (or refusing to put them on it) and the borrowers not figuring it out until the government denied the claim. I'd hope that lawyers are the group least likely to mess up a technicality like that, but who knows?

This part definitely isn't an issue:
Npret wrote:I remember from past discussions problems arise from unemployment because it interrupts 120 consecutive on time payments
Those discussions would be based on a misunderstanding of PSLF. There's no requirement that the 120 payments be consecutive.

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Re: Does every lawyer drown in debt?

Post by Npret » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:06 pm

The ABA lawsuit is based on the contractor of the Dept of Ed giving incorrect certifications or whatever it is called of qualifying employment and the Dept of Ed claiming the statements by the contractor are not binding.

It’s not the lenders in that lawsuit anyway.

Thanks for the clarification about payments not needing to be consecutive.

I would like to hear from anyone who has qualified and had their loans discharged.

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criminologygeek

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Re: Does every lawyer drown in debt?

Post by criminologygeek » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:37 pm

Just a heads-up: litigation is at least 50% writing docs all day. Even criminal trial lawyers--who will tend to be in the courtroom more often than any other kind of lawyer--spend a lot of time writing up documents. So if you're interested in criminal practice because you think you'll be on your feet arguing to a judge/jury all day every day, I'd suggest shadowing a real prosecutor/defender for a few days to see what the reality of practice is like.
I'd rather write docs all day than litigate/cross examine. My dad's good friend is actually doing biglaw after graduating from Princeton. He practices criminal prosecution, so I did "shadow" him before; it's 50% writing docs and 50% litigating for him. I don't think anyone who thinks "arguing to a judge/jury all day everyday" should consider practicing law if that's what they think being a lawyer is all about, especially since it's not like a court drama movie.

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cavalier1138

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Re: Does every lawyer drown in debt?

Post by cavalier1138 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:42 pm

criminologygeek wrote:
Just a heads-up: litigation is at least 50% writing docs all day. Even criminal trial lawyers--who will tend to be in the courtroom more often than any other kind of lawyer--spend a lot of time writing up documents. So if you're interested in criminal practice because you think you'll be on your feet arguing to a judge/jury all day every day, I'd suggest shadowing a real prosecutor/defender for a few days to see what the reality of practice is like.
I'd rather write docs all day than litigate/cross examine. My dad's good friend is actually doing biglaw after graduating from Princeton. He practices criminal prosecution, so I did "shadow" him before; it's 50% writing docs and 50% litigating for him. I don't think anyone who thinks "arguing to a judge/jury all day everyday" should consider practicing law if that's what they think being a lawyer is all about, especially since it's not like a court drama movie.
I think you slightly misunderstood me. Writing is litigation. So is oral argument. So is trial practice. Those are all parts of the litigation process. You can't be in litigation and only do one thing (although various practice areas will have more or less writing vs. stand-up time). So I was responding to your assertion that some hypothetical Yale graduate might prefer to "litigate cases versus writing docs all day," because that's not an either/or scenario.

But this post confuses me even more. Didn't you say in your previous thread that you want to be a prosecutor? How does that square with your desire to "write docs all day" over being on your feet in court? Criminal prosecution involves a lot of the latter, as you observed with your dad's friend... who is doing "biglaw" but also "criminal prosecution" (which is impossible) "after graduating from Princeton" (which doesn't have a law school). And now that I'm actually reading that part of your post, I'm starting to wonder how truthful you're being.

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criminologygeek

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Re: Does every lawyer drown in debt?

Post by criminologygeek » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:31 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
criminologygeek wrote:
Just a heads-up: litigation is at least 50% writing docs all day. Even criminal trial lawyers--who will tend to be in the courtroom more often than any other kind of lawyer--spend a lot of time writing up documents. So if you're interested in criminal practice because you think you'll be on your feet arguing to a judge/jury all day every day, I'd suggest shadowing a real prosecutor/defender for a few days to see what the reality of practice is like.
I'd rather write docs all day than litigate/cross examine. My dad's good friend is actually doing biglaw after graduating from Princeton. He practices criminal prosecution, so I did "shadow" him before; it's 50% writing docs and 50% litigating for him. I don't think anyone who thinks "arguing to a judge/jury all day everyday" should consider practicing law if that's what they think being a lawyer is all about, especially since it's not like a court drama movie.
I think you slightly misunderstood me. Writing is litigation. So is oral argument. So is trial practice. Those are all parts of the litigation process. You can't be in litigation and only do one thing (although various practice areas will have more or less writing vs. stand-up time). So I was responding to your assertion that some hypothetical Yale graduate might prefer to "litigate cases versus writing docs all day," because that's not an either/or scenario.

But this post confuses me even more. Didn't you say in your previous thread that you want to be a prosecutor? How does that square with your desire to "write docs all day" over being on your feet in court? Criminal prosecution involves a lot of the latter, as you observed with your dad's friend... who is doing "biglaw" but also "criminal prosecution" (which is impossible) "after graduating from Princeton" (which doesn't have a law school). And now that I'm actually reading that part of your post, I'm starting to wonder how truthful you're being.
I was being sarcastic, thought it would be obvious.

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Re: Does every lawyer drown in debt?

Post by Eggs » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:12 am

Yeah I think y’all have been getting trolled for a couple of threads

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cavalier1138

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Re: Does every lawyer drown in debt?

Post by cavalier1138 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:58 am

Eggs wrote:Yeah I think y’all have been getting trolled for a couple of threads
This has been a weird troll. I guess kudos to him for having a hobby?

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Re: Does every lawyer drown in debt?

Post by Npret » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:05 am

Eggs wrote:Yeah I think y’all have been getting trolled for a couple of threads
I hope so. OP is the most ridiculous poster I’ve seen here. It would be sad if this was a real person.

There are some nuggets of good advice in each thread so it hasn’t been a complete waste.

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criminologygeek

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Re: Does every lawyer drown in debt?

Post by criminologygeek » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:33 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Eggs wrote:Yeah I think y’all have been getting trolled for a couple of threads
This has been a weird troll. I guess kudos to him for having a hobby?
I was not trolling, not sure why you could be sarcastic with me and once I say one sarcasic/joking remark you think i'm a troll. I think everyone on this walking Earth knows that Princeton doesn't have a law school. Did you honestly take me seriously? You must have a dry humor.

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criminologygeek

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Re: Does every lawyer drown in debt?

Post by criminologygeek » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:42 pm

Npret wrote:
Eggs wrote:Yeah I think y’all have been getting trolled for a couple of threads
I hope so. OP is the most ridiculous poster I’ve seen here. It would be sad if this was a real person.

There are some nuggets of good advice in each thread so it hasn’t been a complete waste.
HAH. It was obviously a joke. I guess humor dies as someone gets older, as I can see from you-zero and nonexistent humor. Do you even have a life? I'm a college freshman and I barley have free time. You on the other hand, follow me like a dog's tail on every post I make. I wish I was able to get a restraining order from someone online. You would be the first person I would get away from.

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criminologygeek

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Re: Does every lawyer drown in debt?

Post by criminologygeek » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:43 pm

Eggs wrote:Yeah I think y’all have been getting trolled for a couple of threads
Your name is literally "eggs" bye.

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cavalier1138

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Re: Does every lawyer drown in debt?

Post by cavalier1138 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:21 pm

If this isn't a troll, it's kind of depressing.

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criminologygeek

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Re: Does every lawyer drown in debt?

Post by criminologygeek » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:28 pm

criminologygeek wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:If this isn't a troll, it's kind of depressing.
Aw, cry me a river. :( That's if you even can, since your humor is so dry

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