Hamilton at CLS but not in at HYS: does this happen? Forum

[uncoverelearning]

Just curious if anyone has heard of this happening. More specifically with a 4.0 and 174, got the Hamilton at CLS but haven't heard back from H, I know Y and S are kind of black boxes but curious about why an application might be strong enough for the Hamilton but not H?

[QContinuum]

I'd expect a Harvard admission with your numbers unless you completely bombed the interview.

Yale/Stanford aren't assured, because they place great weight on softs. Typically Hamilton awardees have strong enough softs for Y/S admission, but there's always some unpredictability.

What are your goals out of law school? Do you expect to receive significant need-based aid at YSH?

[dabigchina]

Who cares? Take the Hamilton.

[Kaziende]

Who cares? Take the Hamilton.

This.

e: Just wait a hot second. You'll get into H.

e2: But still take the Hamilton.

[VirginiaFan]

Who cares? Take the Hamilton.

[QContinuum]

Who cares? Take the Hamilton.

I agree that for the majority - perhaps the vast majority, even - of 0Ls, the Hamilton (or a full-ride at Chicago or NYU) is the way to go. But there are situations where it may make sense to take YSH, especially if one is eligible for max need-based aid. That's why I asked what OP's goals are and whether they expect to receive significant need-based aid.

[3Lhere2help]

Weighing in here as a 3L Hamilton. You will probably make Harvard, almost all of us do so just wait it out. Yale's not as safe a bet. Take the Hamilton, it's worth it 100%.

[kaiser]

Since its largely a numbers game, its usually fairly predictable, but for some candidates that are wild-cards, the results can be odd. For example, I got into U. Chicago and was waitlisted at Fordham. Why? I have no clue.

Its all sort of a moot people though since you should take the Hamilton regardless, even if you get into H.

[QContinuum]

Since its largely a numbers game, its usually fairly predictable, but for some candidates that are wild-cards, the results can be odd. For example, I got into U. Chicago and was waitlisted at Fordham. Why? I have no clue.

Pretty obvious case of YP, I think. Fordham likely figured, and rightly so, that there was no way someone with your numbers would go there even at max scholarship.

The T6, though, don't do YP. It's just a matter of time with H.

[littlepuff]

Since its largely a numbers game, its usually fairly predictable, but for some candidates that are wild-cards, the results can be odd. For example, I got into U. Chicago and was waitlisted at Fordham. Why? I have no clue.

Pretty obvious case of YP, I think. Fordham likely figured, and rightly so, that there was no way someone with your numbers would go there even at max scholarship.

The T6, though, don't do YP. It's just a matter of time with H.

Columbia definitely YPs.

[QContinuum]

Since its largely a numbers game, its usually fairly predictable, but for some candidates that are wild-cards, the results can be odd. For example, I got into U. Chicago and was waitlisted at Fordham. Why? I have no clue.

Pretty obvious case of YP, I think. Fordham likely figured, and rightly so, that there was no way someone with your numbers would go there even at max scholarship.

The T6, though, don't do YP. It's just a matter of time with H.

Columbia definitely YPs.

Your basis for this being...? I've never heard of folks above both 75ths being denied admission to CCN (absent C&F concerns or a disastrous PS/interview/LORs). They don't always get full rides, but they at least get in (and usually with at least a half ride).

[QuentonCassidy]

Who cares? Take the Hamilton.

I agree that for the majority - perhaps the vast majority, even - of 0Ls, the Hamilton (or a full-ride at Chicago or NYU) is the way to go. But there are situations where it may make sense to take YSH, especially if one is eligible for max need-based aid. That's why I asked what OP's goals are and whether they expect to receive significant need-based aid.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you; in fact I went to H over taking the Hamilton, but there were very extenuating circumstances that had nothing to do with law that went into that decision. I was eligible for max need-based aid (I say "was" because if you take any paid jobs during your summers you will see your aid quickly dry up). Even if you get max aid all three years, you still have to take out a minimum of ~40k in loans per year to receive the grant portion of the aid. This begs the question of whether H gives any opportunities over C that is worth a minimum of 120k in debt. I would say no. I have nothing against my school, but if you are a top student at H (and thus in the position of reaching some of the "unicorn" outcomes that people tend to think YSH give some leg-up for) you would have been a top student at C and would be in essentially the same position to reach the top outcomes, but without 120k in debt (or more without max aid). If you are a median student at H, then you would probs be a median student at C, and once again have access to the same outcomes but without the debt.

I can't speak to Y/S, it is possible that their need-based aid is better and I definitely think that Y might be different in that the median student at Y won't be in the same boat as a median student at H/C (both because of Y's reputation/higher admission standards, and because the grading at Y separates the class much less than even the grading at H), although the top students at H will be in the same position as the top students at Y.

TLDR: I think there is likely no situation, absent extenuating (non law related) circumstances where H is worth it over the Hamilton, but the same might not be true for Y.

[miskellyjohnson]

TLDR: I think there is likely no situation, absent extenuating (non law related) circumstances where H is worth it over the Hamilton, but the same might not be true for Y.

The "max aid" that is repeatedly cited for H is only max aid for those without dependents or extenuating circumstances. For those with dependents or special circumstances (like repeated medical costs), grant at H can approach and even exceed full tuition. I know this is a small group of applicants, but it is worth noting that max aid is not really max aid.

[Npret]

Who cares? Take the Hamilton.

I agree that for the majority - perhaps the vast majority, even - of 0Ls, the Hamilton (or a full-ride at Chicago or NYU) is the way to go. But there are situations where it may make sense to take YSH, especially if one is eligible for max need-based aid. That's why I asked what OP's goals are and whether they expect to receive significant need-based aid.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you; in fact I went to H over taking the Hamilton, but there were very extenuating circumstances that had nothing to do with law that went into that decision. I was eligible for max need-based aid (I say "was" because if you take any paid jobs during your summers you will see your aid quickly dry up). Even if you get max aid all three years, you still have to take out a minimum of ~40k in loans per year to receive the grant portion of the aid. This begs the question of whether H gives any opportunities over C that is worth a minimum of 120k in debt. I would say no. I have nothing against my school, but if you are a top student at H (and thus in the position of reaching some of the "unicorn" outcomes that people tend to think YSH give some leg-up for) you would have been a top student at C and would be in essentially the same position to reach the top outcomes, but without 120k in debt (or more without max aid). If you are a median student at H, then you would probs be a median student at C, and once again have access to the same outcomes but without the debt.

I can't speak to Y/S, it is possible that their need-based aid is better and I definitely think that Y might be different in that the median student at Y won't be in the same boat as a median student at H/C (both because of Y's reputation/higher admission standards, and because the grading at Y separates the class much less than even the grading at H), although the top students at H will be in the same position as the top students at Y.

TLDR: I think there is likely no situation, absent extenuating (non law related) circumstances where H is worth it over the Hamilton, but the same might not be true for Y.

I’ve always advocated on this forum for people to take the Hamilton over Harvard, but there is sometimes resistance simply because 0Ls love the Harvard name.

It’s difficult to convince people that 6 figures of debt is a burden because they see first year salaries.

I’m not sure how to get 0Ls to understand.

[Npret]

TLDR: I think there is likely no situation, absent extenuating (non law related) circumstances where H is worth it over the Hamilton, but the same might not be true for Y.

The "max aid" that is repeatedly cited for H is only max aid for those without dependents or extenuating circumstances. For those with dependents or special circumstances (like repeated medical costs), grant at H can approach and even exceed full tuition. I know this is a small group of applicants, but it is worth noting that max aid is not really max aid.

So what about living expenses? I think that additional aid is reduced by earnings like any single person with no medical expenses.

What debt is an 0L looking at even with the super maximum aid granted by Harvard?

[miskellyjohnson]

TLDR: I think there is likely no situation, absent extenuating (non law related) circumstances where H is worth it over the Hamilton, but the same might not be true for Y.

The "max aid" that is repeatedly cited for H is only max aid for those without dependents or extenuating circumstances. For those with dependents or special circumstances (like repeated medical costs), grant at H can approach and even exceed full tuition. I know this is a small group of applicants, but it is worth noting that max aid is not really max aid.

So what about living expenses? I think that additional aid is reduced by earnings like any single person with no medical expenses.

What debt is an 0L looking at even with the super maximum aid granted by Harvard?

A single mother could get a grant that exceeds full tuition. They would have to take debt on living expenses (how much depends on your cost of living)-- but that is true for the Hamilton as well. That's my point. You can get full tuition (or more), just like a Hamilton or Dillard or whatever, at H (and presumably at YS as well), its just not common.

Checking the 509, more people get "more than full tuition" grants at H (10) than do at Columbia (1). So, albeit very specific cases, there are certainly times when acceptance at H beats a Hamilton.

[QContinuum]

[redacted for length]

Many thanks for chiming in, Quenton - a very helpful perspective from someone who chose H over the Hamilton. I agree with your conclusion that, absent someone getting "super max aid" (per miskellyjohnson) at H, it doesn't make sense to choose H over the Hamilton.

[Splurgles23]

Who cares? Take the Hamilton.

I agree that for the majority - perhaps the vast majority, even - of 0Ls, the Hamilton (or a full-ride at Chicago or NYU) is the way to go. But there are situations where it may make sense to take YSH, especially if one is eligible for max need-based aid. That's why I asked what OP's goals are and whether they expect to receive significant need-based aid.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you; in fact I went to H over taking the Hamilton, but there were very extenuating circumstances that had nothing to do with law that went into that decision. I was eligible for max need-based aid (I say "was" because if you take any paid jobs during your summers you will see your aid quickly dry up). Even if you get max aid all three years, you still have to take out a minimum of ~40k in loans per year to receive the grant portion of the aid. This begs the question of whether H gives any opportunities over C that is worth a minimum of 120k in debt. I would say no. I have nothing against my school, but if you are a top student at H (and thus in the position of reaching some of the "unicorn" outcomes that people tend to think YSH give some leg-up for) you would have been a top student at C and would be in essentially the same position to reach the top outcomes, but without 120k in debt (or more without max aid). If you are a median student at H, then you would probs be a median student at C, and once again have access to the same outcomes but without the debt.

I can't speak to Y/S, it is possible that their need-based aid is better and I definitely think that Y might be different in that the median student at Y won't be in the same boat as a median student at H/C (both because of Y's reputation/higher admission standards, and because the grading at Y separates the class much less than even the grading at H), although the top students at H will be in the same position as the top students at Y.

TLDR: I think there is likely no situation, absent extenuating (non law related) circumstances where H is worth it over the Hamilton, but the same might not be true for Y.

I’ve always advocated on this forum for people to take the Hamilton over Harvard, but there is sometimes resistance simply because 0Ls love the Harvard name.

It’s difficult to convince people that 6 figures of debt is a burden because they see first year salaries.

I’m not sure how to get 0Ls to understand.

The bolded is false, especially for clerkships, but also for downstream considerations like small firms, and to a lesser extent, academia. A median student at H has better outcome possibilities AT THE MARGIN than a median student at Columbia. And the margin is often what matters in cases like this.

[QContinuum]

if you are a top student at H (and thus in the position of reaching some of the "unicorn" outcomes that people tend to think YSH give some leg-up for) you would have been a top student at C and would be in essentially the same position to reach the top outcomes, but without 120k in debt (or more without max aid). If you are a median student at H, then you would probs be a median student at C, and once again have access to the same outcomes but without the debt.

The bolded is false, especially for clerkships, but also for downstream considerations like small firms, and to a lesser extent, academia. A median student at H has better outcome possibilities AT THE MARGIN than a median student at Columbia. And the margin is often what matters in cases like this.

I disagree. I would actually argue that for tip-top students at H, there are better possibilities at the margin than for tip-top students at C. Whether that margin is worth an extra $120k+ in loans (assuming "normal" max need-based aid, i.e., no medical conditions or children) is questionable (I personally don't think it's worth that much, esp. since no 0L going in ought to assume they'd be at the tip-top of the class), but there probably is a margin.

But the median student at H is going to be getting a generically good BigLaw outcome - i.e., some V50 firm - which is exactly what a median student at C is gonna get. H isn't Y, where median students can slide into A3 clerkships with aplomb. Employers don't really care about Y grades because everyone looks the same save those at the tip-top. They do care about H grades.

And if you're bottom 10% at H, you're going to be in for a bit of a bumpy ride. I've heard opinions from H students that it'd actually be better to be bottom 10% at C than bottom 10% at H (due to H's gigantic class).

[Splurgles23]

if you are a top student at H (and thus in the position of reaching some of the "unicorn" outcomes that people tend to think YSH give some leg-up for) you would have been a top student at C and would be in essentially the same position to reach the top outcomes, but without 120k in debt (or more without max aid). If you are a median student at H, then you would probs be a median student at C, and once again have access to the same outcomes but without the debt.

The bolded is false, especially for clerkships, but also for downstream considerations like small firms, and to a lesser extent, academia. A median student at H has better outcome possibilities AT THE MARGIN than a median student at Columbia. And the margin is often what matters in cases like this.

I disagree. I would actually argue that for tip-top students at H, there are better possibilities at the margin than for tip-top students at C. Whether that margin is worth an extra $120k+ in loans (assuming "normal" max need-based aid, i.e., no medical conditions or children) is questionable (I personally don't think it's worth that much, esp. since no 0L going in ought to assume they'd be at the tip-top of the class), but there probably is a margin.

But the median student at H is going to be getting a generically good BigLaw outcome - i.e., some V50 firm - which is exactly what a median student at C is gonna get. H isn't Y, where median students can slide into A3 clerkships with aplomb. Employers don't really care about Y grades because everyone looks the same save those at the tip-top. They do care about H grades.

And if you're bottom 10% at H, you're going to be in for a bit of a bumpy ride. I've heard opinions from H students that it'd actually be better to be bottom 10% at C than bottom 10% at H (due to H's gigantic class).

The bolded is false, though for obvious reasons I won't elaborate.

[QContinuum]

H isn't Y, where median students can slide into A3 clerkships with aplomb.

The bolded is false, though for obvious reasons I won't elaborate.

Are you suggesting that median students at Y don't commonly land A3 clerkships? Or are you suggesting that median students at H land clerkships as easily as median students at Y?

For the record, I stand by both parts of my original statement. As to the first assertion, it's extraordinarily common for Yalies to clerk - something like half the class clerks (actually, looked it up, and for the class of 2017 the actual figure was 49.6%), and many more probably could if they wanted to (since, of course, not every single law student is interested in litigation and not every aspiring litigator seeks a clerkship straight out of law school; also recall that thanks to Y's lack of curve and only two real grades, it's effectively impossible to distinguish any student except the superstars based on grades).

As to the second assertion, I'm not saying it's impossible for a median H student to land an A3 clerkship - particularly if one is flexible on location - but it's categorically incorrect to assert that it's easy or common for a median H student to do so. 19.5% of the class of 2017 clerked, and it is inconceivable that the difference between 19.5% and 49.6% is because so many fewer H grads are interested in clerking.

[nixy]

So, I'm confused - according to Law School Transparency, 29.5% of 2017 Yale grads clerked, which is not *that* far from 19.5, and is a difference that I think actually be in part explained by self-selection (it's easy to imagine that, say, doing M&A at a fancy firm - which doesn't require clerking - is an aspiration for more Harvard students than Yale students).

I don't know enough about where median falls and how clear that is to judges to say it's *easy* for a Harvard grad to clerk, but I spent a bunch of time in markets far removed from H or Y, where I think being a Harvard grad definitely took on a premium it might not in other parts of the country, so geographic flexibility would be key (and it may well be too that the Yale grads don't have to be as geographically flexible).

[wubwubwub]

H isn't Y, where median students can slide into A3 clerkships with aplomb.

The bolded is false, though for obvious reasons I won't elaborate.

Are you suggesting that median students at Y don't commonly land A3 clerkships? Or are you suggesting that median students at H land clerkships as easily as median students at Y?

For the record, I stand by both parts of my original statement. As to the first assertion, it's extraordinarily common for Yalies to clerk - something like half the class clerks (actually, looked it up, and for the class of 2017 the actual figure was 49.6%), and many more probably could if they wanted to (since, of course, not every single law student is interested in litigation and not every aspiring litigator seeks a clerkship straight out of law school; also recall that thanks to Y's lack of curve and only two real grades, it's effectively impossible to distinguish any student except the superstars based on grades).

As to the second assertion, I'm not saying it's impossible for a median H student to land an A3 clerkship - particularly if one is flexible on location - but it's categorically incorrect to assert that it's easy or common for a median H student to do so. 19.5% of the class of 2017 clerked, and it is inconceivable that the difference between 19.5% and 49.6% is because so many fewer H grads are interested in clerking.

1. almost no one, anywhere, "slide into [an] A3 clerkship[]"; the process is sufficiently arbitrary that top 10% HYS students sometimes struggle to line something up (although it usually works out for them).
2. median H students get A3 clerkships all the time. Not in the middle of nowhere either. It may be challenging to get circuit or a clerkship in a top tier legal market from median, but median H students regularly get district court clerkships in desirable cities.
3. In addition to self selection out of clerkships, which is genuinely a thing at H, H has a large international JD student cohort and a significant number of dual degree students. I think about 30% of the class is either dual degree or international. Those factors may explain the lower rate at H, at least in part.

[Npret]

Harvard v Yale discussion remains entertaining. Please continue.

[Npret]

To be a little helpful - Harvard 15.9% federal clerks of 563 students is 89. 517 people - so 89 federal clerks.

Yale 29.5% federal clerks of 200 students is 59 - so 59 federal clerks.

I’m not sure how this relates to grades or desire to clerk. I can only add that grads going into corporate of any kind don’t benefit from clerking so it’s fair to say a significant number of grads don’t apply to clerk.

I’m curious as to the possibility that the massive difference in class size impacts federal clerkships. Harvard is more than 2.5 times larger than Yale so I’m curious if it’s just easier to get federal clerkships from Yale due to less competition than at Harvard and greater support from faculty and staff having fewer candidates to support.