Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School Forum

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MCM2018

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Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by MCM2018 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:14 pm

I have a 3.55 GPA and a 142 LSAT.

I played NCAA athletics for 4 years and served in various leadership positions in a fraternity including President my senior year.

I was really anticipating entering Law School in the Fall of 2019 (I am a 2018 College Graduate currently working at a law firm). Schools stress this "holistic" approach, but I am skeptical of this because I know how important the LSAT is. Unfortunately, I do not see myself doing "much" better if I were to retake it. I studied for 7 months every weekday and most weekends. I had taken a class in that time frame as well. My first score was in the 130s so I improved nearly 10 points from my first practice test, but I had scored as high as a 148 on a full length practice test and if you had strung my best sections together (which anyone could say) I would have scored a 154-156. I did poorly on the ACT/SAT as well and graduated Cum Laude easily, truthfully I probably had too much fun in college as well.

My desired school lists consists of schools like Texas Tech, Arkansas, Ole Miss, LSU, Mizzou, and West Virgina. I realize I could take it again before the application deadline is over but out of anxiety I am fearful I could do worse. This is something I have pursued for 8 years now, and my bosses (both attorneys) have encouraged me to apply anyway and see what I can get.

Has anyone had a similar situation and had success in Law School? Thanks.

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by Johnnybgoode92 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:44 pm

You bet. Most people would say retake but it depend on your goals. :twisted:

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by Npret » Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:18 pm

MCM2018 wrote:I have a 3.55 GPA and a 142 LSAT.

I played NCAA athletics for 4 years and served in various leadership positions in a fraternity including President my senior year.

I was really anticipating entering Law School in the Fall of 2019 (I am a 2018 College Graduate currently working at a law firm). Schools stress this "holistic" approach, but I am skeptical of this because I know how important the LSAT is. Unfortunately, I do not see myself doing "much" better if I were to retake it. I studied for 7 months every weekday and most weekends. I had taken a class in that time frame as well. My first score was in the 130s so I improved nearly 10 points from my first practice test, but I had scored as high as a 148 on a full length practice test and if you had strung my best sections together (which anyone could say) I would have scored a 154-156. I did poorly on the ACT/SAT as well and graduated Cum Laude easily, truthfully I probably had too much fun in college as well.

My desired school lists consists of schools like Texas Tech, Arkansas, Ole Miss, LSU, Mizzou, and West Virgina. I realize I could take it again before the application deadline is over but out of anxiety I am fearful I could do worse. This is something I have pursued for 8 years now, and my bosses (both attorneys) have encouraged me to apply anyway and see what I can get.

Has anyone had a similar situation and had success in Law School? Thanks.
Law schools aren’t holistic. Your GPA and LSAT will determine where you can attend and for what price.
I have no idea what schools take an LSAT that low, but I would strongly urge against you attending any of them.
Your best bet is to work a couple of years and study correctly for the LSAT.

The above poster is a law student who attends the worst law school in the country. Their advice is worthless.

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by QContinuum » Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:35 pm

Npret wrote:Law schools aren’t holistic. Your GPA and LSAT will determine where you can attend and for what price.
I have no idea what schools take an LSAT that low, but I would strongly urge against you attending any of them.
Your best bet is to work a couple of years and study correctly for the LSAT.

The above poster is a law student who attends the worst law school in the country. Their advice is worthless.
Moreover, LSAT score correlates well with bar exam passage. If OP is actually unable to improve beyond a 142 - the freaking 17th percentile - their prospects of passing the bar after graduation would appear to be bleak.

I second Npret's advice to not attend any law school that would accept an applicant with a 142 LSAT.

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by AJordan » Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:19 am

What did you use for LSAT study?

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by LSATWiz.com » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:08 am

You’d be making the biggest mistake of your life. You’d honestly be in a dramatically better position borrowing money, and investing it all in a hand of blackjack. The odds are dramatically better. I’ve been teaching the LSAT for a decade. Like any tutor, many of my students only had a few weeks to a month to prep because they “had to” go to law school next year. They got a 150 and matriculated. They all regret it. Every single one. The first replier will too. His commitment to making sure others follow him is evidence of this regret. Small time lawyers at your local firm have no idea what they are talking about.

There’s no wait and see to where you’d get in. Schools risk losing their ABA accreditation if they accept you because the odds of that score passing the bar are way below 50 percent. Your score is literally low to the point that schools cannot accept you even if it was holistic (which it only is in close calls). You’re banking on an admissions dean going, “Well, we can lose our accreditation if we admit them, they aren’t really qualified to be here and I’d lose my job, but fuck it. They play a sport!”

You need to improve your LSAT at least 20 points, but hey, it’s your life and there are non-accredited schools. The odds you will ever make more than you would with your bachelors with your current score are in single digits percentage wise. That’s why blackjack is the more prudent call, and it isn’t prudent.

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by MCM2018 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 9:42 am

AJordan wrote:What did you use for LSAT study?

Kaplan

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by MCM2018 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:02 pm

So where do you draw the line? What if I take the February test and get a 146,148, or 150?

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by cavalier1138 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:16 pm

MCM2018 wrote:So where do you draw the line? What if I take the February test and get a 146,148, or 150?
Honestly, if you can't break 150, don't go to law school.

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by Npret » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:47 pm

MCM2018 wrote:So where do you draw the line? What if I take the February test and get a 146,148, or 150?
We aren’t drawing a line. The ABA requires schools to admit students likely to pass the bar exam. The correlation between the LSAT and bar passage is high. Low LSAT scores are unlikely to pass and be licensed.

Here are a couple of articles that you should read:

https://www.thefacultylounge.org/2017/1 ... o-low.html (low LSAT and bar passage)

https://www.thefacultylounge.org/2017/1 ... untry.html
(Out of compliance schools)
Last edited by Npret on Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:50 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by QContinuum » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:49 pm

MCM2018 wrote:
AJordan wrote:What did you use for LSAT study?

Kaplan
Kaplan isn't known to be great for LSAT prep. Use the PowerScore bibles.

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by LSATWiz.com » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:23 pm

OP, I won't badmouth Kaplan but I recently tutored one person who took the Kaplan program twice and wound up scoring a 137 and a 141 after a year of studying. In one month of working with me, and meeting for 5 hours in total, they improved to a 153. Although I'm a good tutor, I do not normally see those kinds of improvements that quickly and I am much better suited for taking students from a 160 to a 170 than a 140 to a 150.

The reality is that although the student was capable of a better score, Kaplan did not teach them any of the fundamentals of how to take the test. A lot of their approaches are bumper sticker approaches that work on things like the SAT, but not on the LSAT. Even if they did work, teaching someone to be average on the LSAT is a losing strategy as a 150 gets you into the worst law schools in the country from which only a minuscule percentage of graduates get legal jobs.

For example, this guy would initially routinely dismiss the correct answer choice on a strengthen question because it was "too extreme". He learned this concept from his Kaplan course, and like many of their approaches, that is a valid answer to dismiss something on some questions of a specific type, but he didn't learn the fundamental way each question type is tested. It seems that Kaplan comes up with some basic questions, and only focuses on questions that illustrate their approach to a T. The course seems almost like a marketing campaign in that in addition to selling you on taking it, the course itself serves to reinforce your decision to take it instead of focusing on what you need to do to actually get a great score.

Literally, just showing him what the test was actually testing and giving him basic approaches to respond to the actual question being asked was enough to jump overnight without a ton of studying. There's a good chance you are less prepared for the LSAT than you were for a college test you crammed for the night before. This is the most important part of the LS process, and the one you have the most control over.

I'd strongly advise against listening to someone who went to Cooley and wants to justify his decision by convincing others to do the same. Notice he isn't pointing to data or even to his own anecdotal success. He is a current student, jobless and has no prospects.

I have no skin in the game, mid-6 figure legal employment and am also one of the best-regarded LSAT tutors in NYC. I know what it takes to get a great LSAT score, and know the l/t career outlook of people with different scores. You need to consider your prior LSAT studying a lost effort, and move on, not be defined by it. What you're doing otherwise is essentially saying, "well, my personal trainer sucked and I couldn't commit to a diet so I'm just going to be 400 pounds and die of a heart attack at 30". You're doing the career version of that.

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Of the courses, as an independent tutor who is familiar with every major prep company, I'd say that Testmasters is the best even though there are aspects of their business that are sketchy and are designed to maximize profits over student success. A business has to make profits, but it doesn't have to conflict with student success. For example, they build into the business plan the idea that students will be reliant on their materials so they figure that x percentage of students will pay a $1000 to renew the materials after they've already spent twice that on a course, and they charge different students different renewal prices depending in part on their zip code and how much they'd be willing to pay. An alternative to this model would be to price permanent materials into the class. That being said, at least they teach approaches that are responsive to the questions being asked and enable the student to think for themselves, which cannot be said of many of their competitors.

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by Bingo_Bongo » Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:25 pm

Definitely raise your LSAT score before you even think of applying. Everyone's situation is different, but I'd shoot for at least a 155 before I even thought of applying to any law schools under just about any circumstance. If you can, aim for 160+.

I don't know who told you law school admissions is "holistic", but don't take any more advice from them since that couldn't be any further from the truth. Law schools care about two things, and two things only: your undergrad GPA and your LSAT score. It's nothing like undergraduate or med school admissions. The only time "softs" really come into play for law school purpose is at more prestigious schools who have buckets of applicants with perfect LSAT scores and GPAs and they get to be picky in choosing interesting students.

I'm going to be very blunt here: A 142 LSAT score is horrible for admissions purposes. Even a 148 (your highest practice test score) is horrible. The vast majority of third-tier schools won't even take applicants with LSATs that low, let alone "middle of the pack" schools. I'm sure there are a few unranked schools, and if you're in a state that allows them (like CA), plenty of non-ABA accredited schools that will take students with an LSAT score of 148, but you ain't getting a scholarship. Be prepared to go $200,000+ in debt for a clown nose that will adorn your resume forever.

I received a 159 on my LSAT and got a full scholly to a third-tier school that had a far better regional reputation than the USNWR reputation. Things turned out alright for me, and I'm hesitant to join the TLS bandwagon that screams "you're better off killing yourself than going to a T3 school!" To the contrary, just about everyone I graduated with (ten years out) who hustled now have stable legal jobs making good salaries. But that being said, it is a lot easier the first few years out of law school to get employed if you went to a higher ranked school. Doors will slam for you the second you decide to matriculate to a low ranked school. Take it from me, it's a lot easier to spend a few months studying and improving on your LSAT score than to spend years hustling harder than everyone who went to a T1 school.

And to echo what everyone has already said, your LSAT score is a decent predictor of how well you'll do on the bar. I don't know what sucks more than spending three years of your life, and $200k on a degree, only to not be able to pass the bar exam. It happens. Each year there are really bitter fourth, fifth, and even six time test takers who still haven't given up. The vast majority of those repeat test takers come from non-ABA accredited law schools. Two to three years out from law school, and they still can't pass the bar and get employed. You don't want that to be you.

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by LSATWiz.com » Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:45 pm

Bingo_Bongo wrote:Definitely raise your LSAT score before you even think of applying. Everyone's situation is different, but I'd shoot for at least a 155 before I even thought of applying to any law schools under just about any circumstance. If you can, aim for 160+.

I don't know who told you law school admissions is "holistic", but don't take any more advice from them since that couldn't be any further from the truth. Law schools care about two things, and two things only: your undergrad GPA and your LSAT score. It's nothing like undergraduate or med school admissions. The only time "softs" really come into play for law school purpose at more prestigious schools who have buckets of applicants with perfect LSAT scores and GPAs and they get to be picky in choosing interesting students.

I'm going to be very blunt here: A 142 LSAT score is horrible for admissions purposes. Even a 148 (your highest practice test score) is horrible. The vast majority of third-tier schools won't even take applicants with LSATs that low, let alone "middle of the pack" schools. I'm sure there are a few unranked schools, and if you're in a state that allows them (like CA), non-accredited schools that will take students with an LSAT score of 148, but you ain't getting a scholarship. Be prepared to go $200,000+ in debt for a clown nose that will adorn your resume forever.

I received a 159 on my LSAT and got a fully scholly to a third-tier school that had a far better regional reputation than the USNWR reputation. Things turned out alright for me, and I'm hesitant to join the TLS bandwagon that screams "you're better off killing yourself than going to a T3 school!" To the contrary, just about everyone I graduated with (ten years out) who hustled now have stable legal jobs making good salaries. But that being said, it is a lot easier the first few years out of law school to get employed if you went to a higher ranked school. Doors will slam for you the second you decide to matriculate to a low ranked school. Take it from me, it's a lot easier to spend a few months studying and improving on your LSAT score than to spend years hustling harder than everyone who went to a T1 school.

And to echo what everyone has already said, your LSAT score is a decent predictor of how well you'll do on the bar. I don't know what sucks more than spending three years of your life, and $200k on a degree, only to not be able to pass the bar exam. It happens. Each year there are really bitter fourth, fifth, and even six time test takers who still haven't given up. Two to three years out from law school, and they still can't pass the bar and get employed. You don't want that to be you.
Re: "Holistic approach" - That's from the Supreme Court case that allowed affirmative action. Law schools have to say that to legally give a URM bump. That said, while schools prioritize #'s, they also prioritize people who are going to do well in their law school. People with elite GPA's from great schools may be admitted with far below median LSAT scores, because data suggests that those with a 3.9 from Vanderbilt, for instance, tend to do well in LS. This isn't to say those with those GPA's shouldn't aim to get the best score possible but where two people with similar GPA's are both below an LSAT median, I've been told by adcoms that the reputation of the undergrad may carry some weight. While they look at numbers first and foremost, they do pay some attention to (1) personality and (2) the likelihood the applicant will be able to perform well academically. In OP's situation, they're dealing with a fairly average GPA by law school standards and a 3.5 doesn't really tell you that much about a student. The LSAT is even further prioritized.

To justify treating OP who is in the 15th percentile on the LSAT with someone in the 80th percentile, the school has to overlook the fact that statistically, OP is going to be ravaged by the curve. Further, the record of 142's in law school and the bar is not pretty. Whatever adcom admits them is likely going to have a conversation with the admissions dean as ABA accreditation generally requires school to limit the number of sub-150 candidates they accept. That's why some fourth tier schools offer LSAT classes with conditional acceptances to students who break a 150. It's a way of making money off of the least competitive applicants without jeopardizing accreditation. The Cooley poster has not even passed the bar yet. About 50% of their classmates will never even be eligible to work a legal job even if they had one. Let that sink in for a moment. You could guarantee them a six-figure salary, and still less than half will ever be eligible to take it. As their goal is profits, they don't care but OP is talking about schools that care about their students at least in principle. While OP would see getting in as a service, 9+ times out of 10, it would be a disservice so you'd also need them not to give a hoot about OP's well-being.

So thus far, we're banking on:

1.) Schools favoring non-numerical factors to numerical ones.
2.) Schools not concerned with harming OP.

In addition, if "holistic" factors beyond URM status had a >5 point value on the LSAT, what are these factors? OP seems to be a legal assistant/paralegal at a low level firm. I say low level because there's no way he got the advice of just apply with a 142 from a reputable boutique or big law firm. It's likely a middling firm in the midwest, which isn't to say OP's job isn't respectable but he has a job that is very common among law students. He's not exactly running a congressman or leading governmental authority in a foreign country. He's not doing Teach for America. Heck, he's not even a paralegal at a big law firm, which itself wouldn't be that distinctive. Presumably, OP's only unique characteristic is they played a sport. What sport was this? Were they All-American? Did they start? If they just played a sport, and this carries a 20 point LSAT boost, then how much of a boost would a professional athlete get? If playing some college games is worth 20 points in adcoms eyes, what would LeBron James' LSAT boost be? Would it be safe to say that he gets a 200 point plus such that even though he never took the test, adcoms would see him as having a 320 LSAT score?

Presumably, OP is a nice guy, and his PS will reflect that so that could count to. To sum it up, the plan has to be:

1.) Schools favor non-numerical factors in choosing who to admit.
2.) Schools don't care how OP will fare in the law school.
3.) Schools see playing a sport and being a nice guy as worth at least 20 points on the LSAT.

Each of these is a 1:100 longshot or greater. The reality is that (3) just isn't how it works and schools don't care that much about your sports career unless it was truly special. (1) and (2) are also not how it works beyond for-profit schools like Cooley.

The other alternative is:

1.) Just study for the LSAT and break a 160.
2.) Get into all those schools with $.

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by LSATWiz.com » Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:57 pm

Job #'s are hard to come by because the law school refuses to disclose starting salaries of its graduates. If it was even an average fourth tier school, it would and yet it ranked itself #2 in the nation only a few years ago. Why would they be so transparent about the number of books and tables they have in their library, but not about their alumni base?

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by AJordan » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:39 am

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with Kaplan. I will say that, anecdotally, you are not alone with that result. I would encourage you to spend a month with the Powerscore bibles before making any rash decisions like attending law school with a sub-150.

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by Anony1234 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:57 pm

AJordan wrote:I'm sorry you had a bad experience with Kaplan. I will say that, anecdotally, you are not alone with that result. I would encourage you to spend a month with the Powerscore bibles before making any rash decisions like attending law school with a sub-150.
OP, you're getting a lot of aggressive responses that probably aren't fun to read. I just wanted to recommend TestMasters. I raised my score 12 points with TestMasters (ended up in the mid-160s) after only taking a Kaplan course the first try. As mentioned above, TestMasters did a better job of teaching the concepts. I felt like Kaplan focused too much on simplifying the test (i.e. "if you see this, then do this"), and I responded by trying to make sense of the concepts myself. This wasn't very productive and I think hurt my score. I also probably focused too much on the sections I enjoyed (games) while neglecting the sections I didn't (reading comprehension). Make sure you don't fall in this same trap.

People often say the "LSAT is a very learnable test." I certainly experienced this the longer I studied. I did especially well on the logical reasoning sections in part because I had done so many practice questions that I almost memorized the iterations of questions they asked. This went well beyond anything I learned with Kaplan or TestMasters, but was based on first learning the basics of the concepts being tested and from there just going through many practice tests. I still did relatively poorly on reading comprehension (a life-long standardized test struggle of mine that I'll hopefully never have to deal with again), but still found ways to bring that up with more practice.

Finally, just read everyone's responses as simply "do as much due diligence as possible before going to any law school." The lower ranked the school, the higher the risk. Employment and bar passage statistics should be read as the chance you'll have to pass the bar and get a job. Resist the urge to place yourself in the category with the better outcomes, and approach as these numbers are the risk you take at a school. Be very aware before you commit to a school. Most importantly, good luck and keep asking for advice and help! The process is grueling but plenty of practicing attorneys out here willing to help. Avail yourself of them early and often if you're sure you want to go to law school.

ETA: for anyone who noticed, I thought my second course was PowerScore but it was actually TestMasters. Luckily I haven't thought about that in awhile but just noticed in old emails from my inbox. Anyone else have good experiences with TestMasters?

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by MCM2018 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:37 pm

Anony1234 wrote:
AJordan wrote:I'm sorry you had a bad experience with Kaplan. I will say that, anecdotally, you are not alone with that result. I would encourage you to spend a month with the Powerscore bibles before making any rash decisions like attending law school with a sub-150.
OP, you're getting a lot of aggressive responses that probably aren't fun to read. I just wanted to recommend TestMasters. I raised my score 12 points with TestMasters (ended up in the mid-160s) after only taking a Kaplan course the first try. As mentioned above, TestMasters did a better job of teaching the concepts. I felt like Kaplan focused too much on simplifying the test (i.e. "if you see this, then do this"), and I responded by trying to make sense of the concepts myself. This wasn't very productive and I think hurt my score. I also probably focused too much on the sections I enjoyed (games) while neglecting the sections I didn't (reading comprehension). Make sure you don't fall in this same trap.

People often say the "LSAT is a very learnable test." I certainly experienced this the longer I studied. I did especially well on the logical reasoning sections in part because I had done so many practice questions that I almost memorized the iterations of questions they asked. This went well beyond anything I learned with Kaplan or TestMasters, but was based on first learning the basics of the concepts being tested and from there just going through many practice tests. I still did relatively poorly on reading comprehension (a life-long standardized test struggle of mine that I'll hopefully never have to deal with again), but still found ways to bring that up with more practice.

Finally, just read everyone's responses as simply "do as much due diligence as possible before going to any law school." The lower ranked the school, the higher the risk. Employment and bar passage statistics should be read as the chance you'll have to pass the bar and get a job. Resist the urge to place yourself in the category with the better outcomes, and approach as these numbers are the risk you take at a school. Be very aware before you commit to a school. Most importantly, good luck and keep asking for advice and help! The process is grueling but plenty of practicing attorneys out here willing to help. Avail yourself of them early and often if you're sure you want to go to law school.

ETA: for anyone who noticed, I thought my second course was PowerScore but it was actually TestMasters. Luckily I haven't thought about that in awhile but just noticed in old emails from my inbox. Anyone else have good experiences with TestMasters?
Hahaha first off thank you Anony1234. I am currently unsure about how I feel about using any sort of forum ever again after this experience. As I expected, most people are quite amazing sitting behind their keyboard and I am positive everyone one has a six figure job secured and score a 170+. Regardless, I feel a little bit of a need to defend myself but I think I may lol. I am currently looking at this local test prep center that a young attorney suggested that he had good luck with and helped raise his score quite a bit (18 Points). I am a legal assistant currently and I do some Paralegal work, but I am also a licensed HS teacher in Texas which may be the route I take if I need a year more to study for the LSAT.

First, I want to address the fact that just because you work at a "small firm", which is where I work, doesn't mean you can't do well for yourself. 200K-300K a year is a pretty great salary in the state of Texas. 100k goes much further here than it does in most states as well. One of my bosses went to Tulane (a T-50) for LS with a 151 and he passed the bar the first time and my other boss who went to UT (a T-20) with a score in the low 170s and had to take it a second time to become licensed. Now they both make what I am going to call a lot of money and are both licensed in several states, USSC, the fifth circuit, and various federal districts in Texas.

I played Division 2 baseball and UNFORTUNATELY I am not the LeBron James of the sport or I wouldn't be here, but I did start games every year and was the majority starter my sophomore and senior year. I am truly of jealous of people like Byron White can nearly win the Heisman Trophy and sit on the USSC. I was also the "sweetheart" of a women's sorority/social club so if women see me in a positive light I can avoid any interrogation from the Judicial committee down the road (hahaha... please do not attack satire). I was also an identified dyslexic which I hate to identify as an excuse or crutch, but truthfully it is something I overcame.

I am ready for all the malicious responses BUT I do take every bit of advice as helpful. I don't discredit the fact that looking at my LSAT score right now that law school will more than likely prove to be even more difficult than it is for other. I embrace the challenge. Thanks all for you criticism and advice. What does anyone else think?

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by QContinuum » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:00 pm

MCM2018 wrote:Hahaha first off thank you Anony1234. I am currently unsure about how I feel about using any sort of forum ever again after this experience. As I expected, most people are quite amazing sitting behind their keyboard and I am positive everyone one has a six figure job secured and score a 170+.
I apologize on behalf of the forum if any posts made you feel personally attacked. Some of the veteran posters are often gruff in giving advice, but the gruffness is not intended as a personal attack against you or any other 0L. As I expressed above, I think the consensus - not to go to any law school that would take someone with a 142 LSAT - is correct. But that doesn't mean I - or any of the other posters in this thread - think you're somehow inferior, or not smart enough, or don't deserve to be a lawyer, or anything of the sort. Rather, we are trying to advise and encourage you to study properly for the LSAT and improve your performance so you can attend a solid law school with solid job outcomes at a decent cost.
MCM2018 wrote:First, I want to address the fact that just because you work at a "small firm", which is where I work, doesn't mean you can't do well for yourself. 200K-300K a year is a pretty great salary in the state of Texas. 100k goes much further here than it does in most states as well.
There are certainly examples of small firm lawyers - or even solos - doing very well for themselves. But those are absolutely the exceptions to the rule. No one should attend law school expecting to graduate and make $100k per year, let alone $200-300k per year, as a small firm lawyer. Those salaries are simply atypical. The data is out there. It's far, far more common for new lawyers at small firms to make in the low-mid five figures, and for them to stay at that salary for the foreseeable future.
MCM2018 wrote:One of my bosses went to Tulane (a T-50) for LS with a 151 and he passed the bar the first time and my other boss who went to UT (a T-20) with a score in the low 170s and had to take it a second time to become licensed. Now they both make what I am going to call a lot of money and are both licensed in several states, USSC, the fifth circuit, and various federal districts in Texas.
Of course, neither Tulane nor UT nor their peer schools are going to be taking someone with a 142 LSAT, which is why we are advising you to study properly and retake the LSAT.

Also, being licensed in "several states, USSC, the fifth circuit, and various federal districts" is not particularly helpful, especially in the small-firm context, as legal markets are generally local. Further, being admitted to practice in the federal courts is generally little more than a formality once one has been admitted to a state bar. There is nothing especially special about being a member of the 5th Circuit or SCOTUS bar.
MCM2018 wrote:I was also the "sweetheart" of a women's sorority/social club so if women see me in a positive light I can avoid any interrogation from the Judicial committee down the road (hahaha... please do not attack satire).
I'm not going to attack you for the line above, but I'll advise you to refrain from making that "joke" in future. Fair or not, many of your classmates and potential employers will instantly form an opinion of you, in many cases for the worse, if they hear that line.
MCM2018 wrote:I am ready for all the malicious responses BUT I do take every bit of advice as helpful. I don't discredit the fact that looking at my LSAT score right now that law school will more than likely prove to be even more difficult than it is for other. I embrace the challenge. Thanks all for you criticism and advice. What does anyone else think?
Please believe me, folks on here are not being malicious. We don't get our jollies from attacking 0Ls. We are genuinely trying to help and give back to the community. Our advice is often gruff and may be unpleasant to hear, but at bottom it is generally well-intentioned.

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cavalier1138

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:10 pm

In addition to what Q said, no one is saying that you aren't capable of doing well in law school. That's not what the LSAT measures (or at least it doesn't measure it perfectly).

What the LSAT does measure is your ability to get into law school. And the reason people are telling you not to attend if you can't break into a decent score bracket is that the schools accepting people with LSATs in the 140s are scams. They set you up with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, but you are extremely unlikely to be employed as a lawyer after graduating from one of those schools. Even if you do snag a legal job, as mentioned, you cannot count on a six-figure salary, which is what you'd need to make to pay the debt off.

While local attorneys may be decent resources for some things, you've already had people on this forum provide you with plenty of good options for LSAT prep that are likely cheaper than an in-person tutoring service. If you stop focusing on the fact that no one is telling you what you want to hear, you'll find some pretty solid advice about how to start improving your score in this thread.

No one has come even close to a "malicious" response here. You've gotten plain advice, but I would think that someone who has played sports as long as you have would be used to not having people sugarcoat every piece of criticism they provide you.

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by MCM2018 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:13 pm

I completely take all you said as true and once again I take all of your specific advice and opinions as true. This whole process is what has lead me to decide to take it again for sure instead of giving up the dream in general. Trust me, opening up that email was worse than any criticism I could receive from anyone in the world. I thank you for all the words (truly) as motivation and what I think no one can dispute as strong and accurate advice.

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Re: Can I currently get Accepted to a Middle of the Pack School

Post by LSATWiz.com » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:57 pm

I would add that while the LSAT has been shown to statistically be very good at predicting law school grades and bar passage, there's no evidence that starting score is a good predictor. Whether you pick up the score you need on the first or fifth time you take it is probably irrelevant to how you'll fare, because you'll develop the skills needed to succeed notwithstanding the retakes.

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