Should I apply this cycle? [3.83/175] Forum

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ChesterArthur1

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Should I apply this cycle? [3.83/175]

Post by ChesterArthur1 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:11 am

Just got my LSAT back from this test, and I'm over the moon - 175! It was my third try, following a cancelled score in July and a 166 in September. Coupled with my GPA (3.83), I feel like I'm a pretty strong candidate at most schools.

Currently, I'm in the middle of my first year out of college (working as a BigLaw paralegal), and I was planning to work for one more and apply for the 2019-20 cycle. With this LSAT score, though, I'm suddenly considering trying to apply for this cycle. Specifically, I've adjusted my reach school to Harvard, and I think it might be best for me to apply this cycle if I want to reach that goal.

As many of us probably know, law school applications were on the decline through most of the 2010s, but have been trending back upward again since 2016 or so. This upward cycle means that admissions are only gonna get tougher and tougher each year. With my 3.83/175, I'm a little below the median for GPA at Harvard and right at their 75th percentile for LSAT, but what if that changes next year? If the current upward cycle and the law school "Trump bump" continue, and especially in the not-unlikely event of an economic recession, we could see even more people applying to law school.

Just from the 2016-17 to the 2017-18 cycle, the Harvard application numbers jumped from 5500 to 7500 applications, with an average GPA leaping from 3.86 to 3.9. I feel like waiting til next year would be a gamble against these numbers not going up, but on the flip side, applying now would mean a fairly-rushed, fairly-late cycle application.

So is it worth me applying somewhat-late in this cycle, as well as moving heaven and earth to get essays and letters of rec, just to take advantage of these numbers? Or should I just focus on making a killer application for next September, and hope that Harvard's numbers don't go up too much?

Also, if I were to apply this cycle and get rejected, would this rejected application look bad on a future application?

Any guidance would really be appreciated!

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Re: Should I apply this cycle? [3.83/175]

Post by RedPurpleBlue » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:41 am

You should apply this cycle. You have plenty of time to write everything up and get everything out by December 31 with LORs out by January 14 (if you start emailing now and give 3-4 weeks notice). You don't need to move much earth here. It really doesn't take that much work, just a lot of button clicking and like a 2 page essay. At that point, you're still on the normal side of the application process. Worst case scenario, you're out a few hundred bucks, no more; I had a better GPA than you but a significantly worse LSAT and I got fee waivers every school in the T13 outside of Yale, Stanford, Harvard, Berkeley, and Cornell. No school will hold a rejection against you in the next application cycle. Period. Each cycle looks different for them, and they value different candidates more or less at different stages.

That all being said, I think you should apply just to see how your options look like, not because there is going to be a massive influx in applicants. Harvard's GPA median went up by 0.04, which is pretty statistically insignificant from year to year. I wouldn't worry about it going up any higher. Also, Harvard is very much a "meet" school for you and not a "reach," due to its size and need for strong LSATs (good GPAs are a dime a dozen). Your only reaches right now are Yale and Stanford. You should be applying to every school in the T13 to maximize scholarship leverage in negotiations.

Cheers.

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cavalier1138

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Re: Should I apply this cycle? [3.83/175]

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:48 am

RedPurpleBlue wrote:Also, Harvard is very much a "meet" school for you and not a "reach," due to its size and need for strong LSATs (good GPAs are a dime a dozen). Your only reaches right now are Yale and Stanford. You should be applying to every school in the T13 to maximize scholarship leverage in negotiations.
100% agree with this. You're a strong contender for a full ride at CCN on down.

nurture

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Re: Should I apply this cycle? [3.83/175]

Post by nurture » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:35 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:Also, Harvard is very much a "meet" school for you and not a "reach," due to its size and need for strong LSATs (good GPAs are a dime a dozen). Your only reaches right now are Yale and Stanford. You should be applying to every school in the T13 to maximize scholarship leverage in negotiations.
100% agree with this. You're a strong contender for a full ride at CCN on down.
I'm in a similar boat regarding hls but reapplying after interview/reject last cycle. I have the same numbers as before with already lots of work ex. Since it's already mid December meaning it wouldn't be reviewed until Jan. Should i apply now or wait? Could early app Sept next cycle improve chances than applying now?

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cavalier1138

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Re: Should I apply this cycle? [3.83/175]

Post by cavalier1138 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:49 am

nurture wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:Also, Harvard is very much a "meet" school for you and not a "reach," due to its size and need for strong LSATs (good GPAs are a dime a dozen). Your only reaches right now are Yale and Stanford. You should be applying to every school in the T13 to maximize scholarship leverage in negotiations.
100% agree with this. You're a strong contender for a full ride at CCN on down.
I'm in a similar boat regarding hls but reapplying after interview/reject last cycle. I have the same numbers as before with already lots of work ex. Since it's already mid December meaning it wouldn't be reviewed until Jan. Should i apply now or wait? Could early app Sept next cycle improve chances than applying now?
When you say "similar boat," what do you mean? Are you also a 3.8x/175?

In general, reapplying with the same numbers isn't a good look, but without knowing your numbers, it's hard to get specific.

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ChesterArthur1

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Re: Should I apply this cycle? [3.83/175]

Post by ChesterArthur1 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:43 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:Also, Harvard is very much a "meet" school for you and not a "reach," due to its size and need for strong LSATs (good GPAs are a dime a dozen). Your only reaches right now are Yale and Stanford. You should be applying to every school in the T13 to maximize scholarship leverage in negotiations.
100% agree with this. You're a strong contender for a full ride at CCN on down.
cavalier1138 wrote:
When you say "similar boat," what do you mean? Are you also a 3.8x/175?

In general, reapplying with the same numbers isn't a good look, but without knowing your numbers, it's hard to get specific.
Thanks for the above responses @Cavalier. Do you agree that I should apply this cycle? Most people that I've asked seem to think I should go for it, but I'm worried that a re-application will look bad. With my numbers, do you think it would be bad to reapply, seeing as I have no plans to change them? For what it's worth, I feel like I have pretty strong softs - did 4 internships in college, lots of extracurricular involvement, currently working as a BigLaw paralegal - but I really feel like any application I submit now versus in September will be mostly the same.

Also, do you agree that HLS numbers are unlike to change much more in the next year? Because honestly, I'm really happy to just wait another year and work some more, but I'm just deathly afraid of HLS 25% GPA jumping above 3.83, or 75% LSAT going to 176.

Thanks for the input!

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Re: Should I apply this cycle? [3.83/175]

Post by RedPurpleBlue » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:07 am

Reapplication does NOT look bad, even with similar numbers. Each application cycle has different candidates that apply at different times in a cycle. A 3.8X/175 might not be as valued in January (let's pretend you were rejected), but it might be a hot commodity in September. They aren't going to turn you away just because you applied last year with the similar stats. Potential applicants get too caught in the weeds of what the application cycle should look like and does look like in most other academic fields. In the legal field, however, admissions are a numbers game, and the most variance is when you play your cards. Play them in March? You're probably screwed. January? Could very well have a decent shot. September? Optimal shot. Considering applying twice isn't going to prejudice your application, why not play a hand in January and September (if needed)? Could get to head to law school in the fall of 2019 instead of 2020.

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cavalier1138

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Re: Should I apply this cycle? [3.83/175]

Post by cavalier1138 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:04 am

RedPurpleBlue wrote:Reapplication does NOT look bad, even with similar numbers.
I agree in general. But you don't think that reapplying after getting rejected post-interview without making any changes is probably going to result in a flat rejection this time around? I just don't see why the adcomms would be more desperate this year. That said...
ChesterArthur1 wrote:Also, do you agree that HLS numbers are unlike to change much more in the next year? Because honestly, I'm really happy to just wait another year and work some more, but I'm just deathly afraid of HLS 25% GPA jumping above 3.83, or 75% LSAT going to 176.
This is more concerning to me. Why are you so focused on Harvard?

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Re: Should I apply this cycle? [3.83/175]

Post by QContinuum » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:45 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:Reapplication does NOT look bad, even with similar numbers.
I agree in general. But you don't think that reapplying after getting rejected post-interview without making any changes is probably going to result in a flat rejection this time around? I just don't see why the adcomms would be more desperate this year. That said...
ChesterArthur1 wrote:Also, do you agree that HLS numbers are unlike to change much more in the next year? Because honestly, I'm really happy to just wait another year and work some more, but I'm just deathly afraid of HLS 25% GPA jumping above 3.83, or 75% LSAT going to 176.
This is more concerning to me. Why are you so focused on Harvard?
I agree with all of the above. I'd recommend putting together a new PS. And maybe finding new recommenders, if possible (you never know, OP could've had the misfortune of finding a backstabbing recommender, or maybe someone who simply doesn't know how to write a convincing modern LOR - e.g., someone who's of the "B's a terrific grade!" mindset, and thus inadvertently turned in a very weak LOR).

Because with those numbers, OP should be a shoo-in across the T13. There must be a red flag somewhere, and I'm sure it's either the PS or the LOR(s), or both.

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ChesterArthur1

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Re: Should I apply this cycle? [3.83/175]

Post by ChesterArthur1 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:58 am

Hi all, thanks again for the terrific responses! I really appreciate the insight.
cavalier1138 wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:Reapplication does NOT look bad, even with similar numbers.
I agree in general. But you don't think that reapplying after getting rejected post-interview without making any changes is probably going to result in a flat rejection this time around? I just don't see why the adcomms would be more desperate this year.
That's exactly what I'm afraid of! I'd be really disappointed if I turned in a good application that could get me accepted earlier in the cycle, but because I turned it in in January, results in a rejection. If that rejection is a big black mark on future apps (and I don't know whether it would be), then it will really be the worst of both worlds: instead of one, single, perfectly-timed application, or two applications across two different cycles that both give me a good chance, I'd have one poorly-timed application that gets me rejected, that strongly drags down my next application as well.
cavalier1138 wrote:
ChesterArthur1 wrote:Also, do you agree that HLS numbers are unlike to change much more in the next year? Because honestly, I'm really happy to just wait another year and work some more, but I'm just deathly afraid of HLS 25% GPA jumping above 3.83, or 75% LSAT going to 176.
This is more concerning to me. Why are you so focused on Harvard?
Just because it's my top school, I'd really, really like to give it the best shot I can. Of course, I'd be thrilled to go to any number of other schools in the T14, especially NYU, Columbia or Penn - lupper T14s on the East Coast. If I were to apply this cycle, it would really just be so I could have 2 shots at Harvard, since I feel pretty strong about my chances about getting into at least 1 of the other 3 (any of which I would be happy with). That said, I'm not sitting here like "Harvard or bust!", I just want to maximize my chances at getting in, since as I've said in other posts, it's my upper end meet/lower reach school.
QContinuum wrote: I agree with all of the above. I'd recommend putting together a new PS. And maybe finding new recommenders, if possible (you never know, OP could've had the misfortune of finding a backstabbing recommender, or maybe someone who simply doesn't know how to write a convincing modern LOR - e.g., someone who's of the "B's a terrific grade!" mindset, and thus inadvertently turned in a very weak LOR).

Because with those numbers, OP should be a shoo-in across the T13. There must be a red flag somewhere, and I'm sure it's either the PS or the LOR(s), or both.
No red flags, haha - at least, none that I know of! As I wrote in other posts, I haven't applied yet to ANY school, so I created this thread to get input on whether or not I should. If you have anything to add - specifically as to whether or not a re-app would look bad on a hypothetical Harvard app, or whether you think next cycle is likely to be significantly more difficult than this one - I'd really appreciate it!

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Re: Should I apply this cycle? [3.83/175]

Post by QContinuum » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:45 pm

ChesterArthur1 wrote:That's exactly what I'm afraid of! I'd be really disappointed if I turned in a good application that could get me accepted earlier in the cycle, but because I turned it in in January, results in a rejection. If that rejection is a big black mark on future apps (and I don't know whether it would be), then it will really be the worst of both worlds: instead of one, single, perfectly-timed application, or two applications across two different cycles that both give me a good chance, I'd have one poorly-timed application that gets me rejected, that strongly drags down my next application as well.
No, reapplying won't be a "big black mark" on future apps. Schools don't care if you reapply once. Preferably write a new PS, though (which should be very doable). You can use the same recommenders but you'll need to have them resubmit their letters to LSAC (which should also be very doable).
ChesterArthur1 wrote:No red flags, haha - at least, none that I know of! As I wrote in other posts, I haven't applied yet to ANY school, so I created this thread to get input on whether or not I should. If you have anything to add - specifically as to whether or not a re-app would look bad on a hypothetical Harvard app, or whether you think next cycle is likely to be significantly more difficult than this one - I'd really appreciate it!
Right, apologies for misreading. I think if you can apply by Dec. 31 (by which I mean get everything in by Dec. 31, including LORs), you should apply this cycle. It's not too late, especially since you have strong stats. I don't think you'll be overly disadvantaged. Worst case scenario, if you underperform your numbers (refer to MyLSN for your acceptance chances & likely scholarship amounts), you're only out the application fee and can reapply next cycle.

I'm not really sure why you refer to applying as "moving heaven and earth" because law school apps only involve writing a single essay and finding two folks to write strong LORs. (You really don't need three letters, unless you're convinced that third writer is going to add something unique.) You can use the same essay for all of your apps - you don't need to tailor your PS to each school. It's really not that much work - it's not like college applications. It's pretty quick.

(I'll admit Yale is more work because that 250 is something else. But also Yale - uniquely - doesn't disadvantage late applicants, so there's no huge rush to get your Yale app in!)

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Re: Should I apply this cycle? [3.83/175]

Post by RedPurpleBlue » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:56 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
RedPurpleBlue wrote:Reapplication does NOT look bad, even with similar numbers.
I agree in general. But you don't think that reapplying after getting rejected post-interview without making any changes is probably going to result in a flat rejection this time around? I just don't see why the adcomms would be more desperate this year. That said...
I honestly don't. Adcomms change year to year and so do applicants. A 3.83/175 might be an unacceptable/fringe applicant if reviewed in late February but a lock of processed and interviewed in December. We see that happen all the time on TLS. I don't think reapplying hurts at all as long as you do two things (1) continue doing something productive in your additional gap year and (2) apply early in the following cycle.

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