Unusual applicant...questions/advice? Forum

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Silverdandy707

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Unusual applicant...questions/advice?

Post by Silverdandy707 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:35 am

Hi,

Im finishing my Phd in Chemistry from the #1 schools in the nation (there were 2-3 last time i checked a couple months back, MIT, Caltech...). However, I noticed UGPA and lsat is the most important numbers more than anything else.

Numbers-wise
My undergrad was from a top engineering/science school and had a 3.4 GPA (Major gpa: 3.5)
(The Average Major GPA for people in my major at my school was a 2.0, average overall was a 2.7).
My lsat is 173 (i only took it once).

Unique softs:
1. I had 3 science publications coming out of undergrad (i focused on that instead of my grades ><, i thought i wanted to be a scientist..). I'll have 2 science publications coming from my phd.
2. I also made some other rare and unique softs/connections. I was asked to be a patent consult at one of the top big law firms in the country, they have a number of patent cases they wanted me on (SO: taking a unique well paid internship this spring-summer at this big law firm, advisor is cool with it).
3. I'll have some unique recommendations as well: nobel laureate, my phd advisor, the senior partner at the big law firm that offered me the unique internship at his firm.

Why i was interested in law
The amount of day to day dangerous chemicals i handle every single day is astounding (alot of solvents go right through your gloves, like DCM). I love reading and researching/troubleshooting, but I don't know if practical experimentation is something I want to do my entire life.

Other unique case
Im kind of at a loss on where/if i should apply. I have two offers from two top firms, saying they will pay for free night law school as I work for them. But the unique connections ive made say, "where you go to school matters?". But i heard its less relevant for patent lawyers?

So Im here to ask for some advice.
1. If i should apply to law school or take the firm offers or do both and weigh it out.
2. If I go the application route, if I should retake lsat for higher score? Where I can apply with my...stuff?

Bla Bla Bla Blah

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Re: Unusual applicant...questions/advice?

Post by Bla Bla Bla Blah » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:29 am

Define "top firms." That could be important to an understanding of your situation. And yes, for IP law it can matter where you went to school. Easier or better opportunities for those of us who went to top schools. I pretty much fell into IP law without a goal to practice it from my school. This with a BA in History.

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totesTheGoat

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Re: Unusual applicant...questions/advice?

Post by totesTheGoat » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:49 am

Silverdandy707 wrote: Numbers-wise
My undergrad was from a top engineering/science school and had a 3.4 GPA (Major gpa: 3.5)
(The Average Major GPA for people in my major at my school was a 2.0, average overall was a 2.7).
My lsat is 173 (i only took it once).
My numbers were about the same. I got partial scholarship offers at T13 schools. That was 4 years ago, and I've heard that most schools have gotten more generous in the interim. I limited my number and scope of applications because I was planning on keeping my job and going to night school, so I don't have too many data points.
Other unique case
Im kind of at a loss on where/if i should apply. I have two offers from two top firms, saying they will pay for free night law school as I work for them. But the unique connections ive made say, "where you go to school matters?". But i heard its less relevant for patent lawyers?
It's not a bad offer, but I try to get people to think twice about going to night school. If they were going to let you work 20 hours per week and go to day school, that would be more ideal. It'd be worth asking whether that's an option. I did the whole full-time patent agent during day and law school during night thing, and I don't recommend it to others. If you want more details on why I didn't like it, you can ask (or you can search my posting history... i've written some long posts on my experience).

Where you go to school matters in the sense that most recruiting pipelines are set up through the top schools. If you want national play, you need to go to a school with national reach. If you want regional relevance, you need to go to the top regional school. If you just want a job, take the free law school and work for one of those firms. Usually, the firms offering these sorts of plans are not the top tier firms. They're the 2nd or 3rd tier firms trying to lock the good talent up and keep them out of the 2L recruiting cycle.
So Im here to ask for some advice.
1. If i should apply to law school or take the firm offers or do both and weigh it out.
2. If I go the application route, if I should retake lsat for higher score? Where I can apply with my...stuff?
You don't need a higher LSAT, but every additional point is a higher probability of getting a great admissions package from a great school.

From my position as a 2nd year patent attorney, if I were to do it again I'd go full-time to the best school that offered me a decent scholarship. I didn't have the contacts in the patent firms prior to school, so I didn't have any opportunity to have my tuition comped. However, if you take and pass the patent bar, there will be plenty of opportunities to work 20 hours a week learning your craft during law school, and you'll make enough to pay your tuition and CoL out of pocket. You could easily find something that would pay $40-50k for 20 hours/week as a patent agent, and you won't be stuck with them after graduation if you discover that you don't want to work there long term.

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Re: Unusual applicant...questions/advice?

Post by IPmaybe » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:36 pm

As someone who was in a similar position a few years ago (per dangerous chemicals, had to use a substantial amount of MOMCl, etc.), I suggest going to be a technical adviser/patent agent (after passing the USPTO registration exam) for a few years. Now, I wouldn't suggest going to night school for all the reasons above mentioned, but it would be good to see if you enjoy patent prosecution. If you do, it may not matter as much what school you eventually go to (many patent prosecutors are not from the T14) and then you can decide whether you want to remain at the firm and go to a nearby night school.

If you don't like prosecution, and it takes a particular personality to enjoy it, then you can decide if law school is still right for you or if you want to do something else (I made the mistake of going straight to law school and regret it). If law school is still right for you, apply broadly to the T14 (a 173 is great, but you have to make sure the score will survive for the term you'd be applying to, I forget how long it lasts). It will definitely matter outside of patent prosecution what law school you attend (see above for national vs regional reach).

As to the above poster mentioning 2nd/3rd tier firms, I don't know how true that is. My understanding is that firms like MoFo and Wilson and I think Fish/Finnegan have similar programs for their patent agents/technical advisers. I wouldn't call those 2nd/3rd tier patent prosecution firms, but maybe I'm misunderstanding the above poster. They have more experience than me in the area, but the suggestion to work for another firm during law school could also be problematic from a conflicts point of view if you were to change law firms (it'd probably be worth it for the $ during law school, but just be cognizant that conflicts can be more difficult in patent prosecution than other types of law).

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totesTheGoat

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Re: Unusual applicant...questions/advice?

Post by totesTheGoat » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:27 pm

I don't know how true that is. My understanding is that firms like MoFo and Wilson and I think Fish/Finnegan have similar programs for their patent agents/technical advisers.
It's possible that they do. I merely meant that most of the "we'll comp your tuition" type offers I heard about were local boutiques and smaller GP firms trying to lock up the talent early because they can't compete with the big dogs during on campus interviews. Obviously, a full tuition offer from a firm like MoFo or Finnegan isn't something to discard willy nilly.

I'd be leery of doing anything that locks you into working for a specific firm 4 years before your prospective start date. The upside is relatively low considering that many firms hire advisors/agents at $50+/hour for 20 hour weeks during school without any contractual expectation of paying them back. I'm really glad I wasn't obligated to stay at the biglaw firm I was working at during school. I hated the biglaw culture and a better opportunity was made available at OCI.

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Silverdandy707

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Re: Unusual applicant...questions/advice?

Post by Silverdandy707 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:16 pm

Bla Bla Bla Blah wrote:Define "top firms." That could be important to an understanding of your situation. And yes, for IP law it can matter where you went to school. Easier or better opportunities for those of us who went to top schools. I pretty much fell into IP law without a goal to practice it from my school. This with a BA in History.
By top firms i mean, one of the top 20 law firms by revenue, and I just looked up a bunch of list just now, and if it accounts for anything, Its in the Vault top 15. 750+ lawyers with offices around the world.

Silverdandy707

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Re: Unusual applicant...questions/advice?

Post by Silverdandy707 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:24 pm

totesTheGoat wrote:
Silverdandy707 wrote: Numbers-wise
My undergrad was from a top engineering/science school and had a 3.4 GPA (Major gpa: 3.5)
(The Average Major GPA for people in my major at my school was a 2.0, average overall was a 2.7).
My lsat is 173 (i only took it once).
My numbers were about the same. I got partial scholarship offers at T13 schools. That was 4 years ago, and I've heard that most schools have gotten more generous in the interim. I limited my number and scope of applications because I was planning on keeping my job and going to night school, so I don't have too many data points.
Other unique case
Im kind of at a loss on where/if i should apply. I have two offers from two top firms, saying they will pay for free night law school as I work for them. But the unique connections ive made say, "where you go to school matters?". But i heard its less relevant for patent lawyers?
It's not a bad offer, but I try to get people to think twice about going to night school. If they were going to let you work 20 hours per week and go to day school, that would be more ideal. It'd be worth asking whether that's an option. I did the whole full-time patent agent during day and law school during night thing, and I don't recommend it to others. If you want more details on why I didn't like it, you can ask (or you can search my posting history... i've written some long posts on my experience).

Where you go to school matters in the sense that most recruiting pipelines are set up through the top schools. If you want national play, you need to go to a school with national reach. If you want regional relevance, you need to go to the top regional school. If you just want a job, take the free law school and work for one of those firms. Usually, the firms offering these sorts of plans are not the top tier firms. They're the 2nd or 3rd tier firms trying to lock the good talent up and keep them out of the 2L recruiting cycle.
So Im here to ask for some advice.
1. If i should apply to law school or take the firm offers or do both and weigh it out.
2. If I go the application route, if I should retake lsat for higher score? Where I can apply with my...stuff?
You don't need a higher LSAT, but every additional point is a higher probability of getting a great admissions package from a great school.

From my position as a 2nd year patent attorney, if I were to do it again I'd go full-time to the best school that offered me a decent scholarship. I didn't have the contacts in the patent firms prior to school, so I didn't have any opportunity to have my tuition comped. However, if you take and pass the patent bar, there will be plenty of opportunities to work 20 hours a week learning your craft during law school, and you'll make enough to pay your tuition and CoL out of pocket. You could easily find something that would pay $40-50k for 20 hours/week as a patent agent, and you won't be stuck with them after graduation if you discover that you don't want to work there long term.

Well my connections have affiliations within the top6 schools, actually they basically adopted me so I think im more afraid to disappoint them more than anything else =(. But Im not a person to ask for help and they are pretty straight-laced when it comes to that kind of stuff. OKay thank you for your reply, Im just so influenced by my connections, I wanted to seek some outside advice just in case (they are really bias about the school name thing).

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Re: Unusual applicant...questions/advice?

Post by Bla Bla Bla Blah » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:20 pm

Silverdandy707 wrote:
Bla Bla Bla Blah wrote:Define "top firms." That could be important to an understanding of your situation. And yes, for IP law it can matter where you went to school. Easier or better opportunities for those of us who went to top schools. I pretty much fell into IP law without a goal to practice it from my school. This with a BA in History.
By top firms i mean, one of the top 20 law firms by revenue, and I just looked up a bunch of list just now, and if it accounts for anything, Its in the Vault top 15. 750+ lawyers with offices around the world.
Nice shoes to be in! If they are offering to not only give you work, but pay for your degree... I'm also assuming that they are planning to hire you after that investment. It's hard to find that sort of a sure bet from any law school, so I would lean towards working with that option, walking away with little to no debt (depending on how much of your degree they are willing to work for), a law degree and a pretty sure bet to work for a solid firm. Hard to see a downside to that option.

Silverdandy707

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Re: Unusual applicant...questions/advice?

Post by Silverdandy707 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:51 pm

Bla Bla Bla Blah wrote:
Silverdandy707 wrote:
Bla Bla Bla Blah wrote:Define "top firms." That could be important to an understanding of your situation. And yes, for IP law it can matter where you went to school. Easier or better opportunities for those of us who went to top schools. I pretty much fell into IP law without a goal to practice it from my school. This with a BA in History.
By top firms i mean, one of the top 20 law firms by revenue, and I just looked up a bunch of list just now, and if it accounts for anything, Its in the Vault top 15. 750+ lawyers with offices around the world.
Nice shoes to be in! If they are offering to not only give you work, but pay for your degree... I'm also assuming that they are planning to hire you after that investment. It's hard to find that sort of a sure bet from any law school, so I would lean towards working with that option, walking away with little to no debt (depending on how much of your degree they are willing to work for), a law degree and a pretty sure bet to work for a solid firm. Hard to see a downside to that option.
Well no, THAT top firm (internship)isn't the firm that offered to pay for schooling. But they wanted me as soon as possible for some patent cases recently, so IM taking leave (in a unexpected huge hurry) from school for 3 months to go do this intern. And they asked if I could work part-time through the rest after the official intern/into the next summer. They expressed interest in hiring me during/after law school, but they aren't one of the two firms (they are also 750+ lawyer big) that expressed interest in fully-paying for night school at part-time programs like Fordham.

Anything else I can do to better my apps? job prospects? or other advice? I know my situation is unusual, and I had no one to ask...so i felt alittle lost, So i really appreciate you guys posting replies/advice.

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totesTheGoat

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Re: Unusual applicant...questions/advice?

Post by totesTheGoat » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:56 am

Bla Bla Bla Blah wrote:Hard to see a downside to that option.
The downside is that such arrangements usually come with 2 year contracts after you graduate. If you discover, while working there for 4 years during law school, that you're really not cool with their firm culture, you're stuck there for another 2 years (or you have to pay them back for the tuition).
Well no, THAT top firm (internship)isn't the firm that offered to pay for schooling. But they wanted me as soon as possible for some patent cases recently, so IM taking leave (in a unexpected huge hurry) from school for 3 months to go do this intern. And they asked if I could work part-time through the rest after the official intern/into the next summer. They expressed interest in hiring me during/after law school, but they aren't one of the two firms (they are also 750+ lawyer big) that expressed interest in fully-paying for night school at part-time programs like Fordham.
I would jump at this firm's opportunity in a heartbeat. It's all the upside (the training and the money) without the downside (night school, very limited school choice, likely contractual obligations upon graduation). The biggest downside to declining the paid tuition offers would have been the risk of you having difficulty lining up a part-time gig at a firm like this one. If you can get it lined up ahead of time, that takes all the risk off the table, and (IMO) makes this an easy decision.

Don't let "paid tuition" woo you. Do the math and figure out what paid tuition would be worth after scholarships, a potential part-time salary without strings attached, and opportunity cost are taken into account.

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Re: Unusual applicant...questions/advice?

Post by Silverdandy707 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:58 pm

totesTheGoat wrote:
Bla Bla Bla Blah wrote:Hard to see a downside to that option.
The downside is that such arrangements usually come with 2 year contracts after you graduate. If you discover, while working there for 4 years during law school, that you're really not cool with their firm culture, you're stuck there for another 2 years (or you have to pay them back for the tuition).
Well no, THAT top firm (internship)isn't the firm that offered to pay for schooling. But they wanted me as soon as possible for some patent cases recently, so IM taking leave (in a unexpected huge hurry) from school for 3 months to go do this intern. And they asked if I could work part-time through the rest after the official intern/into the next summer. They expressed interest in hiring me during/after law school, but they aren't one of the two firms (they are also 750+ lawyer big) that expressed interest in fully-paying for night school at part-time programs like Fordham.
I would jump at this firm's opportunity in a heartbeat. It's all the upside (the training and the money) without the downside (night school, very limited school choice, likely contractual obligations upon graduation). The biggest downside to declining the paid tuition offers would have been the risk of you having difficulty lining up a part-time gig at a firm like this one. If you can get it lined up ahead of time, that takes all the risk off the table, and (IMO) makes this an easy decision.

Don't let "paid tuition" woo you. Do the math and figure out what paid tuition would be worth after scholarships, a potential part-time salary without strings attached, and opportunity cost are taken into account.
Okay Thank you totesTheGoat. I actually start that internship in like a week. I think they would only hire me though if i go to a name school, hence, I worry about the application thing. Would working for them even help my apps? Its not a clerk position, they made the consultant position for me because they had a bunch of biotech (my phd is in biotech, chemistry/EE) cases that came in, and they needed people. I know the senior partner that is writing me the recommendation is also a pretty known name in the field.

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Re: Unusual applicant...questions/advice?

Post by nurture » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:33 pm

totesTheGoat wrote:
Bla Bla Bla Blah wrote:Hard to see a downside to that option.
The downside is that such arrangements usually come with 2 year contracts after you graduate. If you discover, while working there for 4 years during law school, that you're really not cool with their firm culture, you're stuck there for another 2 years (or you have to pay them back for the tuition).
Well no, THAT top firm (internship)isn't the firm that offered to pay for schooling. But they wanted me as soon as possible for some patent cases recently, so IM taking leave (in a unexpected huge hurry) from school for 3 months to go do this intern. And they asked if I could work part-time through the rest after the official intern/into the next summer. They expressed interest in hiring me during/after law school, but they aren't one of the two firms (they are also 750+ lawyer big) that expressed interest in fully-paying for night school at part-time programs like Fordham.
I would jump at this firm's opportunity in a heartbeat. It's all the upside (the training and the money) without the downside (night school, very limited school choice, likely contractual obligations upon graduation). The biggest downside to declining the paid tuition offers would have been the risk of you having difficulty lining up a part-time gig at a firm like this one. If you can get it lined up ahead of time, that takes all the risk off the table, and (IMO) makes this an easy decision.

Don't let "paid tuition" woo you. Do the math and figure out what paid tuition would be worth after scholarships, a potential part-time salary without strings attached, and opportunity cost are taken into account.
a part-time gig of 20hr work/wk can only pay for like 40k per year minus taxes. The tuition per year alone is much higher. so how does this take "all" risk off the table compared to tuition comp'd option?

i assume if someone is paying the tuition, then they may likely offer part-time work of 20hr/wk too. that can pay for the CoL or opportunity cost. wouldn't that be much better than working part-time and paying tuition off that earning? also, is it possible to get to do day school with paid tuition and part-time patent agent job with the firm that pays tuition?

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