165 LSAT, 3.6 GPA chances?

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AnxiousMom101

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165 LSAT, 3.6 GPA chances?

Postby AnxiousMom101 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:48 pm

Hello,

I was wondering what are my chances of getting into a T14 law school with a 3.6 and 165 from top 5 undergrad public school?

I plan on retaking the LSAT and expect a 168+ in February and I did not study too much for the 165 so I know I can improve.

How are my chances affected by applying this late? Would I be able to submit my February LSAT score? Should I just wait for the next admission cycle?

I am not a URM, do not have significant softs but have been working at a law firm. I am one year out of undergrad. Thanks

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CardozoLaw09

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Re: 165 LSAT, 3.6 GPA chances?

Postby CardozoLaw09 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:59 pm

Last edited by CardozoLaw09 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

LawTweet

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Re: 165 LSAT, 3.6 GPA chances?

Postby LawTweet » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:59 pm

Wait and retake.

NYULaw2012

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Re: 165 LSAT, 3.6 GPA chances?

Postby NYULaw2012 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:47 am

I suggest retaking and waiting for the next cycle and plan to get applications in next November. It’s pretty late right now and with your numbers you have virtually no chance at T14 and very little chance for scholarship at the T25.

You should aim for a 170+ to be on the safe side for next year, but even with that it will be hard to get any money at the t14 and you will most likely be looking at the lower tier of T14 (Duke, Cornell, UVA, UMich, and U of Texas).

is this an investment you would really want to make? 240k is a lot of money and most would consider only Yale, Harvard and maybe Stanford worth that kind of money.

Definitely wait this cycle out and don’t settle outside of the T14, especially if you aren’t some kind of trust fund kid. Outside of the T14, it will be very hard getting BigLaw (you would have to rank in the top 25% of your class - and law school rank/grading is largely random and arbitrary).

I paid 150k for NYU and got BigLaw at a decent firm. I left after 4 years, most leave after 3-5 years and virtually no one makes it past 7 years. We leave because chances of making partner is pretty much 0% if you aren’t connected to the top or just really fucking charismatic and great at what you do. Think long and hard about law school, especially if you aren’t in scholarship range. You make decent buck during BigLaw, but everyone hates it and once you leave you will be making 75% of what you made in BigLaw (although work-life balance is a hell of a lot better. You’re working 75-90hrs a week in big law doing boring, dumb work). If you are going after money/prestige, there are better ways to achieve that. If you genuinely want to be a lawyer because you like what you are doing right now, then go ahead but be warned.

Not trying to scare you but law school is a big investment and in my opinion, along with most other people’s opinion, is not worth it - and this is coming from a T6 grad.

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Re: 165 LSAT, 3.6 GPA chances?

Postby CADM1UM » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:11 am

NYULaw2012 wrote:
You should aim for a 170+ to be on the safe side for next year, but even with that it will be hard to get any money at the t14 and you will most likely be looking at the lower tier of T14 (Duke, Cornell, UVA, UMich, and U of Texas).

.



Why do people try to put UT Austin into the T-14 simply because USNWR put them at 14? Just because USNWR has them at 14 above Georgetown doesn't mean it's suddenly on the tier of the 13 schools above it. Georgetown's national portability still shits on UT's so you either have to go with T-13 now or maintain the original T-14

sparkytrainer

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Re: 165 LSAT, 3.6 GPA chances?

Postby sparkytrainer » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:34 am

CADM1UM wrote:
NYULaw2012 wrote:
You should aim for a 170+ to be on the safe side for next year, but even with that it will be hard to get any money at the t14 and you will most likely be looking at the lower tier of T14 (Duke, Cornell, UVA, UMich, and U of Texas).

.



Why do people try to put UT Austin into the T-14 simply because USNWR put them at 14? Just because USNWR has them at 14 above Georgetown doesn't mean it's suddenly on the tier of the 13 schools above it. Georgetown's national portability still shits on UT's so you either have to go with T-13 now or maintain the original T-14


This has been played out so many times on this board. It is now the t13. If you look at employment data, its clear there is a cluster at the bottom of the t13 (NW, Cornell, Berkeley) and a significant drop off until you get to UT and GT. UT and GT are now in the t20 group along with UCLA, USC, etc.

That is why it is now the t13.

NoDayButToday

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Re: 165 LSAT, 3.6 GPA chances?

Postby NoDayButToday » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:55 am

Those were my numbers and here were my outcomes:

Applied mid-November. Softs were White House and State Dept embassy internships; college org leadership positions. Probably strong recs, from college profs, and personal statement. Demonstrated significant interest across the board, especially at my wait-list lower t14 schools. I visited all of the schools I applied to at least once, sometimes more. Took official tours and met with admissions counselors. Sent in one or two LOCIs. Met admissions officers repeatedly at law school fairs.

Harvard - held, then reject
Columbia - fast reject
NYU - held, then reject
Penn - fast reject
Duke - fairly early reject
UVA - fairly early wait list, fairly early reject after wait list action started
GULC - fairly early wait list, fairly early reject after wait list action started

Wash U - fast accept with initial low scholarship offer which they increased to $75K without my asking
GW - fast accept with low scholarship offer. Either $5K a year or $5K total.
BC - fast accept with $60K scholarship offer, subsequently negotiated to match Wash U's
BU - fast accept with $45K scholarship offer, subsequently negotiated to match BC's first offer
UNC - fast accept with I think $43.5K scholarship offer (can't remember, but think was around $14.5 a year)

When I say "fast" I mean the schools may come to a decision before your February score unless they know to wait for it--and unless you do break into the high 160s, sometime like this^ is probably what you have to look forward. I had most admissions outcomes by the end of February.

I ended up not retaking, went to BC and did very well academically, then transferred to NYU. Most people on this site strongly advise waiting and retaking over putting your eggs in the transfer basket, because literally almost everyone is trying to be top of their law school class and it's very risky. If you don't wait after your retake, if you're not where you wanna be, I strongly suggest going to a back up school with good employment prospects (in the subject and geographical areas that interest you) where you'd accrue minimal debt and where you'd be a happy and proud graduate in case transferring doesn't work out. But yeah, if you can be patient, waiting after retaking is probably a good idea. Even a high 160s score would open the T14 for you. Breaking 170 would open almost everything (at least as a possibility), with money. You just don't want to be too late with February when the same numbers could net you better outcomes with an early cycle application. Same for scholarship.
Last edited by NoDayButToday on Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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floatie

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Re: 165 LSAT, 3.6 GPA chances?

Postby floatie » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:13 pm

My numbers were very similar to yours (slightly higher LSAT, slightly lower GPA) with very similar softs as NoDayButToday (above). I got into GULC and Northwestern off the waitlist, but I didn't get any money at either school.

I applied to UT (early reject - probably because I have absolutely zero ties or interest in Texas and I think it showed in my app). I was rejected off the waitlist from WashU, but I got into BU, BC, Minnesota, and GW with relatively high scholarships (ranging from $90k-120). I ended up getting $144k at Emory which is where I'm going now.

If you get your apps in by early January, I wouldn't really consider you a "late" applicant - you'd be applying right around the same time as everyone else. Regarding your Feb LSAT score, schools will automatically be updated (and you can let them know your score), but some schools will hold off on reviewing your application until you get your Feb score, since it'll show that you're signed up to take it. You can attach an addendum requesting schools to review your application as it (without your Feb score) but you might not get favorable results that way. FWIW I applied in early January as well, and I don't think that hindered my scholarship amounts.

As far as whether you can/should wait until next cycle - that's a question that only you can answer. The good thing is that with your numbers as they are now, you could potentially get decent money from T25 schools (which, contrary to the T-13 or bust mentality on here, do provide reasonably good outcomes. Granted, they are significantly weaker with getting NYC/DC biglaw but there's a LOT more you can do with your law degree than sell your soul to Skadden). I cannot stress how much of a relief it would be to graduate with a low/zero debt load, especially with PSLF in contention now. If you choose to wait and if you are able to improve your Feb score significantly, you could then be in the running for money from some T-14 schools (though with your GPA, I am not sure how significant those scholarships would be) but then you have the added stress of having to do something else for a year.

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Re: 165 LSAT, 3.6 GPA chances?

Postby icechicken » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:43 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:If you look at employment data, its clear there is a cluster at the bottom of the t13 (NW, Cornell, Berkeley) and a significant drop off until you get to UT and GT. UT and GT are now in the t20 group along with UCLA, USC, etc.

That is why it is now the t13.


Exactly. This chart illustrates what the ordinal US News rank obscures. With the caveat, of course, that USN metrics are imperfect, the gap between Cornell and Texas is wider than that between any other pair of law schools.

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