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Very Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:40 am
by KLKForever
To cut to the chase:
GPA: Total ~2.8
LSAT: 172, although I did cancel once

However, my GPA is almost entirely dragged down because I had flunked out of a PharmD. program many years ago, which LSAC says counts as undergraduate work. Since all of the coursework was professional level and towards a professional doctorate and not a bachelors, I don't think that's fair, but those are the breaks. Outside of Pharmacy school, my GPA has been about 3.2-3.3 and I have earned a bachelor's degree in engineering, and I have been working as an engineer and teaching school. However, officially, my uGad GPA comes in at about a 2.8. I want to practice IP and Cybersecurity Law

Should I even bother applying to a top 25 Law School?

I have a history of mental health issues, which was one major factor in my flunking out of pharmacy school, but I'm all better now. However, I don't know how to tie that into a personal statement. Hell, I don't even think that I should tie that into my personal statement. I do feel that I need a good personal statement to be judged by my recent undergraduate record, and not my failure in pharmacy school.

Re: Somewhat Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:49 am
by cavalier1138
2.8 isn't "somewhat low." It's just low.

You should blanket CCN down and see who bites. You'll likely get money at WashU, and you might get lucky at one of the T13.

Re: Very Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:58 am
by KLKForever
Thanks Cav,

If I get into a top-50 program, I'll be okay, I think.

Re: Somewhat Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:01 pm
by rowdy
cavalier1138 wrote:2.8 isn't "somewhat low." It's just low.

You should blanket CCN down and see who bites. You'll likely get money at WashU, and you might get lucky at one of the T13.


Is CCN worth it even? Or Cornell or Berkeley? I can't find a record of any of these schools talking a 2.x GPA ever.

Re: Somewhat Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:02 pm
by cavalier1138
rowdy wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:2.8 isn't "somewhat low." It's just low.

You should blanket CCN down and see who bites. You'll likely get money at WashU, and you might get lucky at one of the T13.


Is CCN worth it even? Or Cornell or Berkeley? I can't find a record of any of these schools talking a 2.x GPA ever.


It's debatable for schools like Chicago or Berkeley, where GPA gets more weight, but super-splitters generally should apply as broadly as possible, because it's just not that predictable.

Re: Very Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:10 pm
by Rigo
KLKForever wrote:If I get into a top-50 program, I'll be okay, I think.

Don't think of schools outside the T20 (really T13+Georgetown) this way. 21 through 150 are all regional schools and one ranked 68 might be much better suited to your goals than one ranked 28.

Re: Somewhat Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:12 pm
by MT Cicero
cavalier1138 wrote:
rowdy wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:2.8 isn't "somewhat low." It's just low.

You should blanket CCN down and see who bites. You'll likely get money at WashU, and you might get lucky at one of the T13.


Is CCN worth it even? Or Cornell or Berkeley? I can't find a record of any of these schools talking a 2.x GPA ever.


It's debatable for schools like Chicago or Berkeley, where GPA gets more weight, but super-splitters generally should apply as broadly as possible, because it's just not that predictable.


Agree with this. I was slightly lower GPA/slightly higher LSAT. In at NU/GU. WL at NYU/Chicago/Mich/Duke/UVA. Dinged outright only at H (haha), Berk, and Penn. Didn't apply to Y, S, Columbia, or Cornell.

I was 12 years removed from GPA with military experience. I know a WL isn't an accept, but you just don't know with these types of apps. I also didn't fight hard off any WLs because I loved Chicago and NU, and withdrew from almost all of them in April/May. Also, GI Bill & Yellow Ribbon so didn't have to worry about money at all.

Bottom line: could be out at all T13 or in at one or two you didn't expect for some strange reason. NU probably best chance with potentially UVA second best. It's a couple hundy more to cast a wider net, so I'd do it.

Re: Somewhat Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:19 pm
by sparkytrainer
MT Cicero wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
rowdy wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:2.8 isn't "somewhat low." It's just low.

You should blanket CCN down and see who bites. You'll likely get money at WashU, and you might get lucky at one of the T13.


Is CCN worth it even? Or Cornell or Berkeley? I can't find a record of any of these schools talking a 2.x GPA ever.


It's debatable for schools like Chicago or Berkeley, where GPA gets more weight, but super-splitters generally should apply as broadly as possible, because it's just not that predictable.


Agree with this. I was slightly lower GPA/slightly higher LSAT. In at NU/GU. WL at NYU/Chicago/Mich/Duke/UVA. Dinged outright only at H (haha), Berk, and Penn. Didn't apply to Y, S, Columbia, or Cornell.

I was 12 years removed from GPA with military experience. I know a WL isn't an accept, but you just don't know with these types of apps. I also didn't fight hard off any WLs because I loved Chicago and NU, and withdrew from almost all of them in April/May. Also, GI Bill & Yellow Ribbon so didn't have to worry about money at all.

Bottom line: could be out at all T13 or in at one or two you didn't expect for some strange reason. NU probably best chance with potentially UVA second best. It's a couple hundy more to cast a wider net, so I'd do it.


I'd normally agree with this, but OP failed out of a graduate school. That, along with a bad GPA, is really gonna hurt OP. I am willing to bet OP doesn't snag a single t13. It is one thing to have a really bad GPA like OP, but its another thing to have a really bad GPA and have failed out of grad school. That together is going to make adcoms think OP wont be able to handle law school, whether true or not.

It would be my advice OP that you talk with a professional admissions counselor like MS9 (I am in no way endorsing his product, nor did I use it). But in this case, you are going to need a REALLY compelling application to get bites at the better schools. OP's academic record is just putrid to be honest and OP needs a professional.

Re: Very Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:20 pm
by MT Cicero
Rigo wrote:
KLKForever wrote:If I get into a top-50 program, I'll be okay, I think.

Don't think of schools outside the T20 (really T13+Georgetown) this way. 21 through 150 are all regional schools and one ranked 68 might be much better suited to your goals than one ranked 28.


This is stated ad nauseam on this site because it's 100% true. Nobody should ever have a reason to apply to BU, Minnesota, Emory, and Arizona State (all in the "top 25"). I blanketed most of the T13 and cornered my entire region when applying. Getting a good job out of law school is difficult enough without you trying to sell the recruiter on how much you always wanted to live in [city], so you decided to go to [law school near city].

Re: Somewhat Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:40 pm
by KLKForever
sparkytrainer wrote:I'd normally agree with this, but OP failed out of a graduate school. That, along with a bad GPA, is really gonna hurt OP. I am willing to bet OP doesn't snag a single t13. It is one thing to have a really bad GPA like OP, but its another thing to have a really bad GPA and have failed out of grad school. That together is going to make adcoms think OP wont be able to handle law school, whether true or not.

It would be my advice OP that you talk with a professional admissions counselor like MS9 (I am in no way endorsing his product, nor did I use it). But in this case, you are going to need a REALLY compelling application to get bites at the better schools. OP's academic record is just putrid to be honest and OP needs a professional.


Well, you misread one thing: my uGad GPA is only 2.8 when counting the Professional School courses(PharmD courses) as undergraduate, not graduate school. Without that, my uGad GPA is about 3.2, which graduate schools count, but LSAC counts PharmD classes as undergraduate for some reason. My GPA in my engineering program afterwards was about 3.3. I didn't flunk out of grad-school and have sub-3.0 low uGad GPA. I either have a low uGad GPA OR flunked out of grad school.

Re: Somewhat Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:45 pm
by sparkytrainer
KLKForever wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:I'd normally agree with this, but OP failed out of a graduate school. That, along with a bad GPA, is really gonna hurt OP. I am willing to bet OP doesn't snag a single t13. It is one thing to have a really bad GPA like OP, but its another thing to have a really bad GPA and have failed out of grad school. That together is going to make adcoms think OP wont be able to handle law school, whether true or not.

It would be my advice OP that you talk with a professional admissions counselor like MS9 (I am in no way endorsing his product, nor did I use it). But in this case, you are going to need a REALLY compelling application to get bites at the better schools. OP's academic record is just putrid to be honest and OP needs a professional.


Well, you misread one thing: my uGad GPA is only 2.8 when counting the Professional School courses(PharmD courses) as undergraduate, not graduate school. Without that, my uGad GPA is about 3.2, which graduate schools count, but LSAC counts PharmD classes as undergraduate for some reason. My GPA in my engineering program afterwards was about 3.3.


I didn't misunderstand. The 2.8 is what is going to be reported right according to the LSAC? And you failed out of a graduate program right? That is not a recipe for success in law school admissions. I wish you the best OP, but you ought to talk to a professional. You failed out of a graduate program, even though for some weird reason that counts to your undergrad gpa. You are an academic liability (if I was just looking at your record) and I believe your admissions cycle is going to reflect that. Hence, talk to someone who is more knowledgeable in order to help you with your situation.

Re: Somewhat Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:51 pm
by KLKForever
sparkytrainer wrote:
KLKForever wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
I didn't misunderstand. The 2.8 is what is going to be reported right according to the LSAC? And you failed out of a graduate program right? That is not a recipe for success in law school admissions. I wish you the best OP, but you ought to talk to a professional. You failed out of a graduate program, even though for some weird reason that counts to your undergrad gpa. You are an academic liability (if I was just looking at your record) and I believe your admissions cycle is going to reflect that. Hence, talk to someone who is more knowledgeable in order to help you with your situation.


The PharmD. program is considered undergraduate according to LSAC. Officially, in the eyes of LSAC, I had a 2.0 in one undergraduate major, and then I had a 3.3 in another undergraduate major for more years which averages out to a 2.8.

Re: Very Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:05 pm
by Rigo
Just saw the mental health stuff. I'd avoid talking about that unless absolutely necessary.

Re: Somewhat Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:10 pm
by sparkytrainer
KLKForever wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
KLKForever wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
I didn't misunderstand. The 2.8 is what is going to be reported right according to the LSAC? And you failed out of a graduate program right? That is not a recipe for success in law school admissions. I wish you the best OP, but you ought to talk to a professional. You failed out of a graduate program, even though for some weird reason that counts to your undergrad gpa. You are an academic liability (if I was just looking at your record) and I believe your admissions cycle is going to reflect that. Hence, talk to someone who is more knowledgeable in order to help you with your situation.


The PharmD. program is considered undergraduate according to LSAC. Officially, in the eyes of LSAC, I had a 2.0 in one undergraduate major, and then I had a 3.3 in another undergraduate major for more years which averages out to a 2.8.


Right. So what did I say was incorrect? A PharmD. is a graduate program. For whatever reason, the LSAC is evaluating it as an undergrad degree. Hence your GPA. Who cares about the average between the majors?

1- Your reported GPA is a 2.8. That is bad.

2- You attended a graduate program- PharmD. You failed out. That is bad.
Quoting straight from Wiki "A Doctor of Pharmacy (Pharm.D.; New Latin Pharmaciae Doctor) is a professional doctorate degree in pharmacy. In some countries, it is a first professional degree, and a prerequisite for licensing to exercise the profession of pharmacist."

Re: Very Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:36 pm
by KLKForever
Rigo wrote:Just saw the mental health stuff. I'd avoid talking about that unless absolutely necessary.


That's what I figured. It's tough though as I was sent to a Psych ward after the withdraw deadlines, which was a major part of the 2.00 GPA in pharmacy school. One option I've heard exists is getting a transcript expunged on the basis unsound mind at the time, but I'm hoping to avoid attempting such drastic actions. The poster telling me to seek a professional is undoubtedly correct. One professional was supposed to call me tonight, but didn't; I hope it wasn't because of my low GPA.

Re: Somewhat Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:43 pm
by KLKForever
sparkytrainer wrote:
KLKForever wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:
KLKForever wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:


Right. So what did I say was incorrect? A PharmD. is a graduate program. For whatever reason, the LSAC is evaluating it as an undergrad degree. Hence your GPA. Who cares about the average between the majors?

1- Your reported GPA is a 2.8. That is bad.

2- You attended a graduate program- PharmD. You failed out. That is bad.
Quoting straight from Wiki "A Doctor of Pharmacy (Pharm.D.; New Latin Pharmaciae Doctor) is a professional doctorate degree in pharmacy. In some countries, it is a first professional degree, and a prerequisite for licensing to exercise the profession of pharmacist."


You said my low ugpa was in addition to flunking out of grad school. That's not accurate. I didn't get a low ugad GPA then go to gradschool and flunk out.
If LSAC is counting an ostensibly-graduate program as undergraduate, it is undergraduate. They're counting coursework that counted towards the professional doctorate, and not towards a bachelor's degree as undergraduate, which makes it undergraduate. So in the eyes of LSAC, it is undergraduate. That being said, I agree with the rest of what you said. The GPA is definitely really low. Also, it is definitely good advice for me to seek out a professional.

Re: Very Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:02 pm
by JoshLyman13
Anecdotal, but I had a similarly large GPA/LSAT split and I go to Penn. Write good Why "X" essays and a solid PS and you'll have options. Definitely apply to Penn, UVA, Northwestern and Georgetown.

Re: Very Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:22 pm
by KLKForever
JoshLyman13 wrote:Anecdotal, but I had a similarly large GPA/LSAT split and I go to Penn. Write good Why "X" essays and a solid PS and you'll have options. Definitely apply to Penn, UVA, Northwestern and Georgetown.


Thanks for the advice. I'll definitely consider it.

Re: Very Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:50 pm
by KLKForever
Hey!
I snagged Northwestern and Wash U!. I was flat out rejected at Yale and UVA, but I'm still waiting on Harvard. I didn't get any money though, well, not quite. I got $5,000 per year and Wash U. Some lower-ranked schools are giving me full rides though.

Re: Very Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:18 pm
by rrb11b
I'm an engineer splitter too. That's pretty great, congrats. : )

Re: Very Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:41 am
by albanach
Did you have your undergraduate degree awarded prior to starting the pharmd?

I thought lsac stopped counting as soon as your undergraduate degree was awarded.

Re: Very Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:40 pm
by LawyeringAround
albanach wrote:Did you have your undergraduate degree awarded prior to starting the pharmd?

I thought lsac stopped counting as soon as your undergraduate degree was awarded.


This was my understanding...
Can anyone shed light on this? Will undergraduate courses taken after being awarded the first degree count toward LSAC gpa?

Re: Very Low GPA/High LSAT

Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:20 pm
by wanderer23
KLKForever wrote:Hey!
I snagged Northwestern and Wash U!. I was flat out rejected at Yale and UVA, but I'm still waiting on Harvard. I didn't get any money though, well, not quite. I got $5,000 per year and Wash U. Some lower-ranked schools are giving me full rides though.


Congrats to you. This gives me hope.