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Hi all,

My lsat scores are 157, 159 , and I finally got in my PT range of 169!

My GPA is miserable at a 3.25. Double major in Econ and Polisci.

Idk if it helps but I run an online business that I wanted to talk about in my applications and use it in an addendum as I started it to help pay for college (not tuition but my expenses and rent). Took time away from school, I went to UCI but would have to drive back to LA often because of it, etc etc. busy busy. So idk if I should use it as an addendum to my GPA or just talk about it in another statement.

My options are:

A) Go guns blazing and just apply to everything now while it's still very early (UCI, USC, UCLA).

B) Apply to UCI now and retake the 169 for USC and UCLA and apply later, although I'd be risking being later in the cycle and even if I did get an increase, idk if it would offset the benefits of applying super early.

What are your thoughts? Thank you all!!

You're pretty much an automatic reject at all of those schools with your current numbers, so options A and B both seem bad.

Retake and apply when you have the right score. Wait a cycle if you have to; grow your business in the meantime.

icechicken wrote:You're pretty much an automatic reject at all of those schools with your current numbers, so options A and B both seem bad.

Retake and apply when you have the right score. Wait a cycle if you have to; grow your business in the meantime.

Wait, what?

If I'm reading the OP correctly, they have a 169/3.25. That's not an auto-admit at USC/UCLA, but their GPA is the issue, not the LSAT.

icechicken wrote:You're pretty much an automatic reject at all of those schools with your current numbers, so options A and B both seem bad.

Retake and apply when you have the right score. Wait a cycle if you have to; grow your business in the meantime.

Why are they an auto-reject at those scores? Are you seeing a different Mylsn than I?

april_ludgate wrote:

icechicken wrote:You're pretty much an automatic reject at all of those schools with your current numbers, so options A and B both seem bad.

Retake and apply when you have the right score. Wait a cycle if you have to; grow your business in the meantime.

Why are they an auto-reject at those scores? Are you seeing a different Mylsn than I?

cavalier1138 wrote:

icechicken wrote:You're pretty much an automatic reject at all of those schools with your current numbers, so options A and B both seem bad.

Retake and apply when you have the right score. Wait a cycle if you have to; grow your business in the meantime.

Wait, what?

If I'm reading the OP correctly, they have a 169/3.25. That's not an auto-admit at USC/UCLA, but their GPA is the issue, not the LSAT.

My reading is that they have a 159 and wanted to retake for the 169 they've been getting in PTs. On a second read I get that they might actually have a 169 in hand.

I'd still wait on a retake for UCLA/USC but yeah, no reason not to apply for Irvine now.

I think they have an official locked in 169, but please confirm OP.

No, I finally got the 169 this September. I sat out last cycle, got a 169 this September. Now I can retake again, but remember if I apply now it might be better than if I apply after January with just a 1 point difference right? It's a risk...then there's always the chance my score stays the same or goes down.

I'm sorry, my ACADEMIC summary Report has me at a 3.28. Am I reading the correct report? If so then it's a 3.28 not 3.25

I guess UCLA is an auto admit huh?!?! Just kidding

No definitely apply now.

Rigo wrote:No definitely apply now.

Is it a crap shoot or do I have a real chance here if my essays and application are in order?

Kewlaidxx wrote:

Rigo wrote:No definitely apply now.

Is it a crap shoot or do I have a real chance here if my essays and application are in order?

I can't tell you anything beyond lsn really.
Anecdotally I remember someone in my waiters class at UCLA with a 3.2 and I want to say a 168 iirc and they weren't URM or particularly special in any way, so it can happen. I think they rode pretty late into the cycle though and it may have been a WL admit.

All you can do is polish your app and hope for the best.
Good luck.

Rigo wrote:

Kewlaidxx wrote:

Rigo wrote:No definitely apply now.

Is it a crap shoot or do I have a real chance here if my essays and application are in order?

I can't tell you anything beyond lsn really.
Anecdotally I remember someone in my waiters class at UCLA with a 3.2 and I want to say a 168 iirc and they weren't URM or particularly special in any way, so it can happen. I think they rode pretty late into the cycle though and it may have been a WL admit.

All you can do is polish your app and hope for the best.
Good luck.

But in what scenario would a retake be okay at this point?

Kewlaidxx wrote:But in what scenario would a retake be okay at this point?

A retake is always ok, but you're already over USC/UCLA's 75th.

cavalier1138 wrote:

Kewlaidxx wrote:But in what scenario would a retake be okay at this point?

A retake is always ok, but you're already over USC/UCLA's 75th.

Yeah retake all you want but as a splitter you should get the application ball rolling. I wouldn't wait until January to apply.

Also you should send WUSTL an app even though you seem CA centric. I could see them being your most generous scholarship offer, which you will hopefully have the opportunity to turn around and use to negotiate with UCLA/USC.

My friend seems to think so too and he put it well. He says "if this was a war, you'd send in all of your soldiers now" lol. I think you guys r right. Retake is a big risk unless I can guarantee a 175 or up.

Rigo wrote:Also you should send WUSTL an app even though you seem CA centric. I could see them being your most generous scholarship offer, which you will hopefully have the opportunity to turn around and use to negotiate with UCLA/USC.

If I get into SC or LA I'll pay full sticker if I have to! But yeah, you make a great point and I haven't even considered that. I'll definitely do that. And yes I'm hoping for CA. My goal is big law and if I have to grind it out for top 10% at UCI to get a decent job then I'll work myself till near death for it if I have to.

Kewlaidxx wrote:

Rigo wrote:Also you should send WUSTL an app even though you seem CA centric. I could see them being your most generous scholarship offer, which you will hopefully have the opportunity to turn around and use to negotiate with UCLA/USC.

If I get into SC or LA I'll pay full sticker if I have to! But yeah, you make a great point and I haven't even considered that. I'll definitely do that. And yes I'm hoping for CA. My goal is big law and if I have to grind it out for top 10% at UCI to get a decent job then I'll work myself till near death for it if I have to.

Ok, this adds a bit of a wrinkle:

If you can retake to get your score up into T13 territory, then you absolutely should. And you absolutely need to take a step back and think about what sticker debt at any of these institutions really means for you. If you want biglaw, go to a school that gives you a good chance at biglaw, and don't think for a second that working really hard will guarantee that you place in the top [X]% of your class. It won't.

cavalier1138 wrote:

Kewlaidxx wrote:

Rigo wrote:Also you should send WUSTL an app even though you seem CA centric. I could see them being your most generous scholarship offer, which you will hopefully have the opportunity to turn around and use to negotiate with UCLA/USC.

If I get into SC or LA I'll pay full sticker if I have to! But yeah, you make a great point and I haven't even considered that. I'll definitely do that. And yes I'm hoping for CA. My goal is big law and if I have to grind it out for top 10% at UCI to get a decent job then I'll work myself till near death for it if I have to.

Ok, this adds a bit of a wrinkle:

If you can retake to get your score up into T13 territory, then you absolutely should. And you absolutely need to take a step back and think about what sticker debt at any of these institutions really means for you. If you want biglaw, go to a school that gives you a good chance at biglaw, and don't think for a second that working really hard will guarantee that you place in the top [X]% of your class. It won't.

A 200 k loan doesn't dissuade me as much as it should lmao. Idk though, what if I only get a 170 or 171...is that really a deal breaker for someone in my situation ? If not then I'd have waited until January for nothing

You are allowed to apply places now AND retake later, you know.

Rigo wrote:You are allowed to apply places now AND retake later, you know.

They won't look at your app until you send them the score that you want them to look at. My point was that if I have them wait, get my December score in January, and I'm at a 171 even, now I'm being reviewed inJanuary with more competition so the point or two would be outweighed. Y the later application.

Kewlaidxx wrote:A 200 k loan doesn't dissuade me as much as it should lmao.

I get that the idea of being stopped by a mere $200k in debt (actually closer to $300k once you account for fees and interest accrued during school, but who's counting?) is hilarious before you actually have the debt, but please use your brain. If you take out that much debt and don't get biglaw, then you will not be earning near enough money to pay it off on any kind of reasonable timetable. At best, you'll get stuck paying it off on a 25-year plan, at which point you'll still get hit with a tax bomb. So assuming you're a year or two out of undergrad, you'd be in your 50s by the time the debt is paid off.

cavalier1138 wrote:

Kewlaidxx wrote:A 200 k loan doesn't dissuade me as much as it should lmao.

I get that the idea of being stopped by a mere $200k in debt (actually closer to $300k once you account for fees and interest accrued during school, but who's counting?) is hilarious before you actually have the debt, but please use your brain. If you take out that much debt and don't get biglaw, then you will not be earning near enough money to pay it off on any kind of reasonable timetable. At best, you'll get stuck paying it off on a 25-year plan, at which point you'll still get hit with a tax bomb. So assuming you're a year or two out of undergrad, you'd be in your 50s by the time the debt is paid off.

I totally understand and I made it sound like a joke but my logic is that if I get a chance to go to ucla or USC and I
Screw up and land in a jobless or crap paying position then that's something I'll have to answer for. I can do it, no matter what. I just need the opportunity. Once I'm in , it's game on.

Kewlaidxx wrote: I totally understand and I made it sound like a joke but my logic is that if I get a chance to go to ucla or USC and I
Screw up and land in a jobless or crap paying position then that's something I'll have to answer for it. I can do it, no matter what.

Again, confidence is great, but it doesn't actually pay the bills. Just to give you a more specific taste, I'm going to have approximately $120k in debt after graduation, which is pretty damn good, all things considered. But let's say that things don't go my way during OCI, so I don't get the biglaw job I was banking on. Now I still have $120k in debt, but my likely starting salary is $45-60k. In order to pay my debt off in 10 years, I need to make payments of around $1400 a month. That's 20-33% of my salary before taxes, which means that it's more like half my salary after tax.

Now, that's still manageable for me. But you're talking about taking on more than double my debt when you pay sticker price. So if you wanted to pay your loans off in 10 years, you'd need to make payments of closer to $3,000 a month. That's doable (not comfortable, but doable) on a six-figure salary. But if you miss the biglaw gravy train, you are literally incapable of keeping that payment schedule. And all the can-do attitude in the world won't fix that.

More than half of the class at UCLA and USC ends up not landing biglaw. Hard work isn't enough.

cavalier1138 wrote:

Kewlaidxx wrote: I totally understand and I made it sound like a joke but my logic is that if I get a chance to go to ucla or USC and I
Screw up and land in a jobless or crap paying position then that's something I'll have to answer for it. I can do it, no matter what.

Again, confidence is great, but it doesn't actually pay the bills. Just to give you a more specific taste, I'm going to have approximately $120k in debt after graduation, which is pretty damn good, all things considered. But let's say that things don't go my way during OCI, so I don't get the biglaw job I was banking on. Now I still have $120k in debt, but my likely starting salary is $45-60k. In order to pay my debt off in 10 years, I need to make payments of around $1400 a month. That's 20-33% of my salary before taxes, which means that it's more like half my salary after tax.

Now, that's still manageable for me. But you're talking about taking on more than double my debt when you pay sticker price. So if you wanted to pay your loans off in 10 years, you'd need to make payments of closer to $3,000 a month. That's doable (not comfortable, but doable) on a six-figure salary. But if you miss the biglaw gravy train, you are literally incapable of keeping that payment schedule. And all the can-do attitude in the world won't fix that.

More than half of the class at UCLA and USC ends up not landing biglaw. Hard work isn't enough.

I understand, but what reason is there that OCI doesn't work out? I'm not trying to oversimplify the matter and say "just work hard". Because that itself is the hardest part. Your best effort might not be enough and you'd need to work to increase that capacity and that's no joke either. But I'm highly skeptical of this idea that it's not the best of the best going into those top positions.

My position is a little more extreme. It's do or die (not actually die). So For me it's not that im confident because I'm not. Idk how it'll turn out. I'm not confident in myself I'm confident in Hard sweaty bloody teary work, catch my drift?