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anonaccount2018

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Post by anonaccount2018 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:55 pm

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anonaccount2018

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Re: Need advice on all fronts

Post by anonaccount2018 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:59 pm

Left this out in the OP but I am a first-semester senior in Fall 2017 and am planning on applying Fall 2017 for admission for 2018-19 school year.

Edit: Also left out that I am a white male, so not a URM obviously, but should I write a diversity statement about my experience as an addict? Seems like overkill to me but I don't know.

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pancakes3

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Re: Need advice on all fronts

Post by pancakes3 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:50 pm

1) don't put hard deadlines on when to start law school. that's putting the cart before the horse. your primary goal right now is to max out your LSAT so don't just try to crack 170 - keep working at it until you do crack it.

2) own your past and own your sobriety. while it's true that you have C&F issues, they become less and less of an issue with 1) time and 2) honesty. always disclose and always be up front with your mistakes. covering shit up got you in trouble in the past and will get you into even more trouble if you're a lawyer.

3) the PS is whatever. you have a very compelling story but it's not going to make or break your application. same with your recs. ivy-caliber prof recs are good and will help, but your numbers (read:LSAT score) are going to be 90% of the reason why you get into where you get into.

4) as for your target schools, i know that apps are pricey but i think select schools in the bottom half of the T14 are reasonable. Northwestern has historically been favorable to splitters with low GPA high LSAT but i don't know if that still holds true.

otherwise, i would apply to schools in the market in you want to work in that has decent employment numbers on the caveat that you only attend these schools on a full scholarship and/or has good LRAP.

5) don't be too committed to law school. go to LS only if it makes sense and if you're able to achieve the goals you set for yourself. it sounds like you have a good thing going so don't be in too big a hurry to change course to a more "prestigious" profession. i don't know what being a chef is like but i have 3-4 friends who are chefs/caterers in major markets (DC/NYC) and they really love what they do and seem to be making a good career out of it. from their accounts good help is hard to find in that industry. people steal tips, quit without notice, are habitually late and high/drunk while on the job (i suppose i'm writing this for TLS's benefit, not yours. you work in the space).

6) not sure if BL should be in the cards for you. there are people who are sober in the field but the culture of BL really encourages vices - both explicitly and implicitly.

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guynourmin

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Re: Need advice on all fronts

Post by guynourmin » Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:27 pm

Why do you want to go to law school?

anonaccount2018

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Post by anonaccount2018 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:36 pm

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guynourmin

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Re: Need advice on all fronts

Post by guynourmin » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:29 pm

Why do you want to be a lawyer? I'm asking you what your goals are.

AJordan

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Re: Need advice on all fronts

Post by AJordan » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:40 pm

Pretty much every applicant without >75s needs to have a compelling reason for why they want to be a lawyer. If you're not bumping both sets of reportable numbers a school wants to feel like they can count on you to bump numbers on the back end. That requires graduating and passing the bar. Motivation is neither sufficient nor necessary to navigating through legal education but in the end the person reading your application is a human. If you can't give him/her a warm fuzzy why would he/she take a chance on someone who has bombed out of school twice already?

First step is putting all your energy into GPA/LSAT until you've got actual numbers. I don't think applying this fall is going to serve you well. You're going to need every point of GPA triage possible before sending apps in. Where you went to school matters far less than your GPA. I think if you can show another year of removal, another year of 4.0, and a >75% LSAT you'll be in far better shape. Applying in fall of 2018 for 2019 start date is going to be an advantage. Time is really on your side. Don't let anybody tell you you're even close to too old.
Last edited by AJordan on Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

anonaccount2018

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Re: Need advice on all fronts

Post by anonaccount2018 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:55 pm

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pancakes3

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Re: Need advice on all fronts

Post by pancakes3 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:11 pm

1) you've got really lofty goals for an extreme splitter
2) don't think about transferring. transferring is not a backdoor that allows you to end-around a low uGPA. plus, transferring rarely helps someone land a better job. the *best* that can come from transferring is to get you into a certain job market and even then, without pre-existing ties, it's a tough sell.
3) Joint degrees aren't of use either.

you should dig up some old threads about how to choose schools. the arguments have been laid out time and time again re: bigfed, transferring, markets and ties, law school grading/expectations etc.

if your projected job outcomes rank as:
dream: bigfed ogc,
middle: doj,
floor: state AG's office

then you've got to reassess the schools that provide for those outcomes.

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anonaccount2018

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Re: Need advice on all fronts

Post by anonaccount2018 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:24 pm

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: Need advice on all fronts

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:59 pm

I don't think UGPA matters at all for bigfed, actually. And the good thing about a lot of bigfed is that it's not supersnobby about schools - high LS GPA and relevant experience are more important. The biggest issue with bigfed is that there aren't a lot of entry level jobs, so it's hard to count on out of law school, and working biglaw can help for some subsequent bigfed jobs (though not all).

anonaccount2018

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Re: Need advice on all fronts

Post by anonaccount2018 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:46 pm

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mcmand

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Re: Need advice on all fronts

Post by mcmand » Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:29 pm

I only have a couple more thoughts to add to what has already been said, which I generally agree with.

- Your goals are lofty and may not have high likelihood, but they're not unattainable. I think your biggest barrier to a cool federal job would be your past history. You're going to have to own that when you pursue those jobs and probably put it front and center in any application process so they never think you're hiding something from them.

- On the upside, the fact you can do A's and B's now that you're clean and sober shows you aren't a dummy, so you may be able to convince an adcomm or two that you can do it, even at a T14. It's an outside chance, but it's a chance. I agree with whoever posted above that another year of coursework under your belt with high grades will make your case much stronger.

- I honestly don't see how you don't make your past a key part of your personal statement. Is there something else that's somehow bigger than all of that that drives you to go to law school? I'm guessing you don't want it to define you, and I don't disagree, but you may need to use the story to show your growth and why you actually are the right person to admit to law school.

For comparison: there was a guy who robbed banks who graduated from my law school a few years ago, and it pretty much was the centerpiece of his application and subsequent career. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shon_Hopwood; https://www.law.washington.edu/gatessch ... px?YR=2011
I have another friend who has a similar story as you do (drug addiction and homelessness in early 20s, turned life around, went to law school, graduated, practicing in his own firm now). It was pretty much the central story to his journey to becoming a lawyer. I don't think anyone looks at his past now because he's so far separated from it at this point, but leading up to law school, in law school, and then (obviously) during the C&F process, it was, for better or worse, a big part of what he had to tell law schools and then potential employers and faculty giving him recommendations.

In short, you may be mostly free of your past eventually, but you're going to have to wear that albatross around your neck for a bit. I wouldn't stuff it into some addenda on your application. I would put it front and center and explain how it shows you will be a good attorney.
Last edited by mcmand on Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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anonaccount2018

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Post by anonaccount2018 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:33 pm

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j.chvd

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Re: Need advice on all fronts

Post by j.chvd » Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:56 pm

0L here and first time posting/replying to any of these similar type posts. However, I really enjoyed your story and background, and I thought I could offer up *some* advice.

I don't agree with the poster above that your personal statement can't serve as a make or break it type thing for you in the application process. Yes, GPA and LSAT score will serve as 90% of the reason why an admission's committee will hold onto your file, but as a fellow splitter (albeit, reverse, high GPA, low LSAT score -- with my LSAT being below the 25th for most schools), I can attest that a strong PS will be super valuable to adcomm's, as long as you show (1) what you learned from your experience, (2) how that has led you to the legal field, and (3) how your experience will add to the diversity of the law school in general. You might even consider writing a diversity statement as most schools do not limit diversity to sexual orientation, gender, age, race and ethnicity, etc.

Personally, I think that my personal statement and LORs were my strongest softs that led me to either flat out rejection's at certain schools (Penn, Berkeley) or an interview invitation's at certain schools (Cornell, Columbia, Chicago, Harvard). Fwiw, the schools that I had interviewed with all based their interview questions from my personal statement, which was surprising for me especially for Chicago where most threads talk about how stoic and formatted their interviews were. I ultimately ended up receiving admissions to Cornell, Chicago and Columbia, and a waitlist at Harvard, and in the fall I'll be attending Chicago with a pretty decent scholarship.

Finally, keep on the up-track of success school-wise and use your senior year GPA to raise your cumulative. Don't apply this cycle. I agree with the posters that you shouldn't shoot for a certain score, but keep studying until you beat the test itself. Overall, just be a human, numbers are amazing and I give props to those individuals who were able to balance a high GPA and master the LSAT, but my experience proved to me that law schools (even at the highest levels) truly are holistic and you'll have some chance -- definitely not a shoe-in, nor is there any room for comfort. Good luck!

mcmand

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Re: Need advice on all fronts

Post by mcmand » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:40 pm

OP, I haven't seen those other threads, but everyone's situation is different. From what you have shared, I don't think de-emphasizing is necessarily the right approach for you, especially since it's a driving force for your pursuit of a legal education. Those other people may have had different rationales, thus their journey through recovery is not ideal for their application (other than as needed to explain their history). Your best bet is to write what you feel is you, to write it extremely well, and make a persuasive case for your becoming an attorney. If your saga of depression, drug abuse, and self-discovery is what led you here, then you should write about it. The schools that admit you will want you to bring those experiences with you and build on them.

Regarding waiting a year, I never think it hurts to wait, since law schools aren't going to disappear (other than the ones that ought to go under for exploiting students). It sounds like it will be a game-time decision for you. Take the LSAT, and if it's not good enough, then wait. No need to have heartburn over the decision either way - just have criteria, and if they're not met, keep plugging away.

I bet you're eager to get started on this next (and more positive) phase of your life, but you seem to be in an OK spot, and you can build up yourself more for the stresses of a legal career.

Good luck. Check back in with updates or questions as you go. And keep up your wonderful progress through recovery and rebuilding yourself into a new you. I'm rooting for you!
Last edited by mcmand on Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

anonaccount2018

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Re: Need advice on all fronts

Post by anonaccount2018 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:59 pm

j.chvd wrote:.
mcmand wrote:.
Thanks to both of you for the help. I feel like I have a pretty clear sense of what I need to do and realistically what my outcomes could be, but I'm sure I'll have more questions moving forward and will check back in.

I think that I've been guarded enough about personal details in the OP to leave it up at least for now, so if anyone happens upon this thread and has any more advice/comments I'd definitely appreciate those too.

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anonaccount2018

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