C&F TEST - recently written up for harassment Forum

[Future Ex-Engineer]

How does someone get fired from 4 separate summer jobs?

You either have to be actively trying to get terminated for cause, or be the worst employee ever for those kind of stats

[Lexigator]

How does someone get fired from 4 separate summer jobs?

You either have to be actively trying to get terminated for cause, or be the worst employee ever for those kind of stats

Seriously, I've done some awful things at work through my 15+ years of employment, but have yet to be fired. I don't know if I'm impressed or disgusted.

[pancakes3]

1) Nobody here knows what being "written up" means. Did you get fired? Are you on probation?

2) You have awful spelling.

3) I mean, yeah, you're probably right that getting fired from your SA would look much worse than getting fired from McDonald's but that doesn't mean that cruising through your SA wipes your C&F slate clean.

4) Passing C&F for the bar (or even LS admissions) isn't a tallying of someone's sins. Just because there are other ppl who have committed more infractions, and/or more serious infractions and pass C&F doesn't guarantee your passing. A lot of it is about disclosure, pattern of behavior, etc.

5) Getting fired from 4 jobs is not a good look. However, some C&F only goes back 10 years - not your entire employment history. That said though, it's not a good look that you're already defensive about what you did. Own that shit and don't complain about it.

6) You opening a bag of chips when you're 16 isn't really an issue of maturity. It's a reflection that you have loose morals because there are 5 year olds who know better.

[Slippin' Jimmy]

If I'm able to secure summer associate positions while in law school, my professionalism there would greatly outweigh that of non legal positions, correct?

Why would it?

Because I've read that Legal jobs are more important. The purpose of the test in part is to make sure future lawyers are not a risk to society. This makes sense. I'm saying it makes sense logically, not in my defense. Losing a position at a summer job is not as important concerning fitness for the legal world.

Ok. You can use the bold type all you want, but that's not remotely the issue. This is about your character (that's what the "C" stands for). The fact that you've been the world's worst employee in five different jobs is not going to be offset by you getting your shit together for two months in the summer because you switched fields.

Listen to the advice you've already been given and stop trying to look for excuses or shortcuts.

The world's worst employee? The last job I got fired from was a position I held off and on for nine years. They told me it was a hard decision. I'm not going to go into the details, however they would not and will not once contacted, describe me as the worst employee. At the job before that, the manager called corporate because she liked be and really didn't want to let me go. She had to because a customer had stolen something I was responsible for with a value over 70 dollars.

The two jobs before that were mainly because of intolarable immaturity eight years ago. So I'm not making excuses or taking shortcuts, I have legit points. Anyway, while I appreciate and respect the perspectives of everyone, some of you seem to be really off here. I have read many supreme court decisions on this matter and my past is no where close to the controversial files I analyzed. In fact there have been quite a few cases where people lost meaninglessness jobs while in undergrad and it wasnt even brought up.

Newsflash: most people don't get fired due to immaturity, especially those who may wish to become lawyers and Bar Associations will be hesitant to let in people who have a history of getting fired, it just makes the association look bad. Stop doing stupid shit at work and just keep your head down, then when Character and Fitness time comes around hire a C&F lawyer if necessary.

[Lexigator]

Look dude, you're arguing for yourself against the people you were asking for an opinion. You seem to think you're in the clear, so don't stress. If you think you might have issues, now is the time to stay completely squared away until the C&F so you can actually show that you belong. It's really that simple. People here believe you may have cause for concern as you are showing a pattern. If you don't think so, well then carry on.

[mcmand]

OP, I do not understand why you came here for C&F advice and when we give it to you straight, you get wildly defensive and say that your limited research and experience completely outweighs our own, despite the wide array of experiences and knowledge we're bringing to the table.

Take what we are giving you and run with it. Fix whatever you did. Any future job coming down the pike, legal or non-legal or volunteer, needs to reflect very highly of your character and your fitness.

Don't get defensive. The fact you get defensive with us shows us you probably will get defensive with the C&F people when they start asking tough questions, and being defensive with the C&F folks is a sure-fire way to make them scrutinize you even more. You wanna fly under the radar? Eat your humble pie and carry yourself like the lawyer you want to be.

If you don't want to take our advice, hire a C&F lawyer tomorrow and have him or her evaluate all the gory details of your four terminations and your write-up at your job. They can give you nuanced advice and it will be confidential and privileged, unlike whatever you post on this forum.

Also, side-note on your comment about what your former employer will do when contacted: you have absolutely no control over what they might say or reveal. You should be concerned because if the C&F people have their wits about them, they'll send the employer the very broad authorization & release you're forced to sign, which will indicate you have freely given them the right to tell the bar every piece of dirt on you they have ever made records of or recall. Maybe the employer has a policy of still not revealing that information, but I can tell you that sometimes those HR folks change their tune once they see the notarized release form.

Take the advice or leave it. I'm out.

[cavalier1138]

Anyway, while I appreciate and respect the perspectives of everyone, some of you seem to be really off here. I have read many supreme court decisions on this matter and my past is no where close to the controversial files I analyzed. In fact there have been quite a few cases where people lost meaninglessness jobs while in undergrad and it wasnt even brought up.

In case it hasn't sunk in yet, this is precisely what people are telling you not to do. You cannot have this attitude about your past transgressions, because it's not your job to tell the committee what they should do. Your job is to present them with an accurate account of your work history and to express a mature, humble remorse about your past issues. That doesn't mean saying, "I have matured." It means actually acting like you've matured.

[blueapple]

I have read many supreme court decisions on this matter and my past is no where close to the controversial files I analyzed. In fact there have been quite a few cases where people lost meaninglessness jobs while in undergrad and it wasnt even brought up.

I'm assuming you mean state supreme court here. Anyway, clearly people losing "meaningless" jobs while in undergrad was brought up in these many decisions you've read or else you wouldn't know they had lost those jobs.

[ms9]

O Tempora O Mores

(I kinda hope this is just a troll)

[Future Ex-Engineer]

O Tempora O Mores

(I kinda hope this is just a troll)

OPs next post: but is this a countercycle

[Smc1994]

O Tempora O Mores

(I kinda hope this is just a troll)

Sometime's it's way better when it's serious.

[m16532]

1) Nobody here knows what being "written up" means. Did you get fired? Are you on probation?

2) You have awful spelling.

3) I mean, yeah, you're probably right that getting fired from your SA would look much worse than getting fired from McDonald's but that doesn't mean that cruising through your SA wipes your C&F slate clean.

4) Passing C&F for the bar (or even LS admissions) isn't a tallying of someone's sins. Just because there are other ppl who have committed more infractions, and/or more serious infractions and pass C&F doesn't guarantee your passing. A lot of it is about disclosure, pattern of behavior, etc.

5) Getting fired from 4 jobs is not a good look. However, some C&F only goes back 10 years - not your entire employment history. That said though, it's not a good look that you're already defensive about what you did. Own that shit and don't complain about it.

6) You opening a bag of chips when you're 16 isn't really an issue of maturity. It's a reflection that you have loose morals because there are 5 year olds who know better.

Is there a way to find out number 5 for specific states? My understanding was emploment all the way back to 18 was typical.

[A. Nony Mouse]

If you google "state bar exam" for whatever states you're considering, I think most have their applications online. I have heard "10 years or age of 18, whichever was more recent" as most common, but some states may be tougher.

[Lexigator]

If you google "state bar exam" for whatever states you're considering, I think most have their applications online. I have heard "10 years or age of 18, whichever was more recent" as most common, but some states may be tougher.

I don't know, but I want them to go all the way back. I want them to know I worked at the "Virgin Sturgeon." I want them to know my struggle.

[TheSpanishMain]

I'm the exception? This seems a little ridiculous. There are people who have committed serious crimes and have passed the test. When I'm say immaturity, I'm talking about attendance/ opening a product before I payed for it. I can't belive that I have to stress about silly mistakes in my teens and early 20's.

See, this is the problem. You keep filtering all of these C&F issues through your perspective, which is not what schools/the bar will be seeing. They aren't going to be seeing "immaturity" with those two example firings. They're going to see someone who didn't bother to show up for work and someone who stole product from their job. But this has less to do with what you did to get fired and more to do with the fact that you seem incapable of admitting that you actually, legitimately fucked up. If you can't take responsibility for your actions, there are going to be additional red flags raised beyond the "fired from multiple jobs" issue.

I never said my mistakes weren't mistakes. I said the majority of them were years ago and not on a murder/rape scale. Time matters. People learn and grow as I have. The thought that I could go to an elite school and do well just to have my career ruined from past nothings is absurd. That's not my perspective. It is what it is.

I'm not sure an "elite" law school is in the cards here.

[EzraFitz]

*Comes to forum asking for advice on a topic about which he knows little.*

*Gets defensive when the informed opinions of those who know about the topic do not mesh with how he thinks it should be.*

Makes sense. But in all seriousness, you should legitimately hire a C&F lawyer. At least then you'll have a specialist telling you what it all means.

[rpupkin]

I have read many supreme court decisions on this matter and my past is no where close to the controversial files I analyzed.

Just found this thread. The above is one of my favorite sentences in TLS history.