What's So Great About Biglaw? Forum

[BlendedUnicorn]

oops I didn't realize that this was an extended exercise in question begging. Be more concise OP.

[cavalier1138]

Finally, I do like that Notre Dame is conservative, and I do like their sports program, and as someone of Irish descent, I particularly connect to and get excited about their history. I know myself, and I know that I perform well when I am interested in and excited by something. This means I would perform and learn better at a place I am excited about, which is why I believe Notre Dame would be the best option for me personally. It's not because it "resonates with me spiritually" (I'm agnostic) it's simply that I know I would push myself the most if I am truly excited by the school.

These are all godawful reasons to pick a law school. They should literally be the last things you consider, and they should only factor in when you are considering two absolutely equal choices at absolutely equal cost.

Maybe for you. But we are different people. For me personally, I know that managing my internal balance between logic and emotions requires me to find meaning or excitement or some other purpose, at which point I will perform at a high standard. I know that I stop trying when I don't care about what I'm doing, which is part of why I don't think BigLaw would be for me, and why I prioritize a school I would want to be part of and could get excited about. Better to be top 25% at Notre Dame than to flunk out of Harvard.

Except you won't be top 25% at ND, and it's almost impossible to flunk out of Harvard.

Do what you want, but you're not finding anything resembling a balance between logic and emotions at the moment.

[Moneytrees]

Finally, I do like that Notre Dame is conservative, and I do like their sports program, and as someone of Irish descent, I particularly connect to and get excited about their history. I know myself, and I know that I perform well when I am interested in and excited by something. This means I would perform and learn better at a place I am excited about, which is why I believe Notre Dame would be the best option for me personally. It's not because it "resonates with me spiritually" (I'm agnostic) it's simply that I know I would push myself the most if I am truly excited by the school.

These are all godawful reasons to pick a law school. They should literally be the last things you consider, and they should only factor in when you are considering two absolutely equal choices at absolutely equal cost.

Maybe for you. But we are different people. For me personally, I know that managing my internal balance between logic and emotions requires me to find meaning or excitement or some other purpose, at which point I will perform at a high standard. I know that I stop trying when I don't care about what I'm doing, which is part of why I don't think BigLaw would be for me, and why I prioritize a school I would want to be part of and could get excited about. Better to be top 25% at Notre Dame than to flunk out of Harvard.

Except you won't be top 25% at ND, and it's almost impossible to flunk out of Harvard.

Do what you want, but you're not finding anything resembling a balance between logic and emotions at the moment.

Yeah I mean if OP wants to go to ND, fine, it's a good school that has been generous with scholarships in the past few cycles. But lol at assuming that he will be top 25%.

[twiix]

This thread gave me cancer. OP asked for advice and then just argued everything anyone said. Might as well have skipped posting at all since you've already made up your mind and you seemingly posted looking for reassurance (that you didn't get) that whatever crazy ideas you have in your head are justified. Go to ND. Get top 25%. Prove everyone wrong. Seriously, best of luck. But don't say we didn't warn you if you end up flopping.

[poptart123]

Why can't OP root for the team without donating a fortune to the law school? Use the money you would spend and buy all the merchandise you want.

[merde_happens]

OP, you realize that you don't have to have any official affiliation with the school in order to root for their football team, right? In fact, I'd wager that such a group accounts for at least 50% of their football fanbase.

I'm sorry that you seemed to have missed out on that experience in undergrad, but professional school (because that's what law school is) is not the time to make up for that -- especially with this much tuition money on the line.

Also you may say now that you're not interested in silly things like "prestige" or sophisticated clients, but once you get to law school and are surrounded by classmates who are obsessed with those things, you may find yourself singing a different tune. The whole point of going to a good school is to give yourself those options should you change your mind.

Finally, if you did want big law from ND, you'd need at least top 10-15% to be secure. Sure, they place 20% in big law, but you've gotta figure some of those are IP/diversity hires whose GPA are below the normal threholds, plus those kids who get jobs from nepotism/connections. Are you willing to take those odds?

[Moneytrees]

OP, you realize that you don't have to have any official affiliation with the school in order to root for their football team, right? In fact, I'd wager that such a group accounts for at least 50% of their football fanbase.

I'm sorry that you seemed to have missed out on that experience in undergrad, but professional school (because that's what law school is) is not the time to make up for that -- especially with this much tuition money on the line.

Also you may say now that you're not interested in silly things like "prestige" or sophisticated clients, but once you get to law school and are surrounded by classmates who are obsessed with those things, you may find yourself singing a different tune. The whole point of going to a good school is to give yourself those options should you change your mind.

Finally, if you did want big law from ND, you'd need at least top 10-15% to be secure. Sure, they place 20% in big law, but you've gotta figure some of those are IP/diversity hires whose GPA are below the normal threholds, plus those kids who get jobs from nepotism/connections. Are you willing to take those odds?

ND places about 40% of its grads into either Biglaw (101+ firms) or a federal clerkship. Not saying it's the right choice for OP but the 20% figure is a little misleading since it only takes into account megafirms and a lot of people that go to ND are from the Midwest and want to work in regional Biglaw in cities like Indianapolis.

[luckyirish13]

ND places about 40% of its grads into either Biglaw (101+ firms) or a federal clerkship. Not saying it's the right choice for OP but the 20% figure is a little misleading since it only takes into account megafirms and a lot of people that go to ND are from the Midwest and want to work in regional Biglaw in cities like Indianapolis.

Exactly. I don't want to do BigLaw in New York or Los Angeles, and I don't know enough about Chicago, but if I was to want BigLaw, (which I think is unlikely) I would want to practice in the midwest. It's a calmer, simpler place, and I would do better there than NY or LA.

The reason I started this thread was because I hear horror stories about BigLaw all the time. I know quite a few people who advised me against law school at all because of the terrible experiences they had at a big law firm. But then I come on this forum and all the kids are saying it's the dream. But for a lot of people (like myself) that's not the dream. Perhaps at a Midwest firm with Midwest sensibilities I might find a BigLaw firm I would want to be with, and if not I can practice regionally or return to Sacramento.

[OneHandedEconomist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-uVOMeLkh0

[bk1]

The reason I started this thread was because I hear horror stories about BigLaw all the time. I know quite a few people who advised me against law school at all because of the terrible experiences they had at a big law firm. But then I come on this forum and all the kids are saying it's the dream. But for a lot of people (like myself) that's not the dream. Perhaps at a Midwest firm with Midwest sensibilities I might find a BigLaw firm I would want to be with, and if not I can practice regionally or return to Sacramento.

Biglaw can be both soulcrushing and a stepping stone to desirable opportunities/provide good experience.

[cavalier1138]

ND places about 40% of its grads into either Biglaw (101+ firms) or a federal clerkship. Not saying it's the right choice for OP but the 20% figure is a little misleading since it only takes into account megafirms and a lot of people that go to ND are from the Midwest and want to work in regional Biglaw in cities like Indianapolis.

Exactly. I don't want to do BigLaw in New York or Los Angeles, and I don't know enough about Chicago, but if I was to want BigLaw, (which I think is unlikely) I would want to practice in the midwest. It's a calmer, simpler place, and I would do better there than NY or LA.

The reason I started this thread was because I hear horror stories about BigLaw all the time. I know quite a few people who advised me against law school at all because of the terrible experiences they had at a big law firm. But then I come on this forum and all the kids are saying it's the dream. But for a lot of people (like myself) that's not the dream. Perhaps at a Midwest firm with Midwest sensibilities I might find a BigLaw firm I would want to be with, and if not I can practice regionally or return to Sacramento.

But from ND, that's not really an option. That's why people have been telling you that you either need to aim for a T14 school or decide on a region. If you ultimately want to be working in California PI, then Notre Dame should not even be on your list of schools.

You might want to read this forum a little harder, too. Any non-0Ls generally do not treat biglaw as "the dream", and there are a ton of threads from actual lawyers warning people about how terrible practicing in biglaw is. I don't think you're going to find that biglaw practice is significantly different in Chicago (compared to NYC). You also-- correct me if I'm wrong --have never lived in the Midwest, so I'd caution you against making broad assumptions about the nature of the region.

[Nacho_Verde]

OP was looking for a circle jerk but is now stuck fending off jabs at his foundational beliefs.

Stay strong OP.

[Moneytrees]

ND places about 40% of its grads into either Biglaw (101+ firms) or a federal clerkship. Not saying it's the right choice for OP but the 20% figure is a little misleading since it only takes into account megafirms and a lot of people that go to ND are from the Midwest and want to work in regional Biglaw in cities like Indianapolis.

Exactly. I don't want to do BigLaw in New York or Los Angeles, and I don't know enough about Chicago, but if I was to want BigLaw, (which I think is unlikely) I would want to practice in the midwest. It's a calmer, simpler place, and I would do better there than NY or LA.

The reason I started this thread was because I hear horror stories about BigLaw all the time. I know quite a few people who advised me against law school at all because of the terrible experiences they had at a big law firm. But then I come on this forum and all the kids are saying it's the dream. But for a lot of people (like myself) that's not the dream. Perhaps at a Midwest firm with Midwest sensibilities I might find a BigLaw firm I would want to be with, and if not I can practice regionally or return to Sacramento.

I would definitely caution you about going to ND without ties to the Midwest, if the goal is to work in Biglaw. Biglaw firms in the Midwest are really insular and will not hire somebody from California without ties.

However, I disagree with the poster who stated that it would be hard for you to get a job in california if you go to ND. It's a fairly national school and places a decent amount of people in California/NY every year. The key is to keep your debt low (important qualifier). They've been really generous in past cycles with merit aid, so I don't really see the downside of applying and seeing if you can land a good scholarship. At equal cost, I'd take ND over UC Davis, UC Hastings or UCI, even if I wanted to work in California...

[luckyirish13]

But from ND, that's not really an option. That's why people have been telling you that you either need to aim for a T14 school or decide on a region. If you ultimately want to be working in California PI, then Notre Dame should not even be on your list of schools.

You might want to read this forum a little harder, too. Any non-0Ls generally do not treat biglaw as "the dream", and there are a ton of threads from actual lawyers warning people about how terrible practicing in biglaw is. I don't think you're going to find that biglaw practice is significantly different in Chicago (compared to NYC). You also-- correct me if I'm wrong --have never lived in the Midwest, so I'd caution you against making broad assumptions about the nature of the region.

I think what a lot of people are missing in what I'm saying is that I would be very happy working as an attorney at the public interest law firm I currently work at in Sacramento (except right now I'm just a researcher). I spoke with my organization the other day and they said if I got a degree they would be excited to have me on board with them. It doesn't matter where I go to school, since I know I have something waiting for me in Sacramento. That's why I'm focusing on other things like culture and likemindedness. I could easily just go to McGeorge School of Law (Pacific) on a full ride and come out ready to work at my current firm. I would have the same option coming out of Notre Dame, except that Notre Dame would also give me options in the Midwest to explore so that I'm not forced to be tied to Sacramento, and if I don't like the Midwest options I have Sacramento waiting for me. Also I have lived in St. Louis, and I really liked it.

@Moneytrees that's a good point. I do have contacts in the Midwest, (My Mom is from St. Louis) but I haven't talked to them in a while. I should try to make sure I network with them some more, just so that they can help me explore some of those options.

[cavalier1138]

But from ND, that's not really an option. That's why people have been telling you that you either need to aim for a T14 school or decide on a region. If you ultimately want to be working in California PI, then Notre Dame should not even be on your list of schools.

You might want to read this forum a little harder, too. Any non-0Ls generally do not treat biglaw as "the dream", and there are a ton of threads from actual lawyers warning people about how terrible practicing in biglaw is. I don't think you're going to find that biglaw practice is significantly different in Chicago (compared to NYC). You also-- correct me if I'm wrong --have never lived in the Midwest, so I'd caution you against making broad assumptions about the nature of the region.

I think what a lot of people are missing in what I'm saying is that I would be very happy working as an attorney at the public interest law firm I currently work at in Sacramento (except right now I'm just a researcher). I spoke with my organization the other day and they said if I got a degree they would be excited to have me on board with them. It doesn't matter where I go to school, since I know I have something waiting for me in Sacramento. That's why I'm focusing on other things like culture and likemindedness. I could easily just go to McGeorge School of Law (Pacific) on a full ride and come out ready to work at my current firm. I would have the same option coming out of Notre Dame, except that Notre Dame would also give me options in the Midwest to explore so that I'm not forced to be tied to Sacramento, and if I don't like the Midwest options I have Sacramento waiting for me. Also I have lived in St. Louis, and I really liked it.

@Moneytrees that's a good point. I do have contacts in the Midwest, (My Mom is from St. Louis) but I haven't talked to them in a while. I should try to make sure I network with them some more, just so that they can help me explore some of those options.

I think what you're missing in other people's posts is that your current employer saying they'd be "excited to have you on board," after getting your JD is not a job offer. Three years from now, that organization might be defunct, or under different leadership, or not hiring lawyers, or just interested in taking you on as a researcher with a slight pay bump. Unless there is a literal, written expression of, "If you get a JD, then you have a guaranteed job here as a lawyer," you don't have a job, and it's a bad idea to go to an out-of-state school on the assumption that you do.

Where you go to school absolutely matters, because all of your schools are regional. And you are treating this like a second shot at undergrad. It's not. School "culture" is meaningless, especially in the way that you're thinking about it.

[zot1]

Bro, never spend three years of your life and money based on someone saying that they would love to hire you in the future. You also will soon learn promises are not enforceable.

[HarveySpecterr]

a lot of money. if you dont have a family and want to devote yourself to a career, its a good spot.
biglaw is tolerable for a time. but a career in biglaw and prioritizing family is almost impossible. (obviously family isnt for everyone) but usually family is what pulls people out of biglaw. tough to be there for a kid throughout their life (emotionally and the all the events in their life) in biglaw - let alone 2 or more.

Well I'm gonna marry the most beautiful girl in the world (she's in your avatar) and then I'll need some time at home of course . Jk but I certainly do need time outside of work, especially since I do hope to one day raise a family.

For me the main reason I was asking was because I already know that Notre Dame is where I want to go to school, but then it was a question of if it was the appropriate place for me to go to "law school" if that makes sense. Everything about me is drawn to Notre Dame, but the only thing giving me pause is that it's not a t14 and it's biglaw percentage is lower than some. So I needed to establish if that was a factor big enough to prevent me from trying to go there. If I wanted to get into Big Law, it's decent, though not elite. Northwestern would be a better bet for me on that front, but since Big Law probably isn't really for me, maybe Notre Dame is.

Also I do expect I would get some scholarship $$$ out of ND, and maybe even a full fellowship, (I have softs that would make me a prime candidate for a full ride fellowship they offer) so the money thing will most likely be manageable.

I like this thread, and particularly how LuckyIrish13 is problematizing the often oversimplified career questions that 0L's have to think about. In general, of course, everything the conventional wisdom says is mostly true -- BigLaw is better because it pays so much, making $45k with loans over your head doesn't work, grads from T14's do better on the job market -- but these truisms fail to cover the actual range of possibilities in the real world.

Despite what strict adherents to the TLS religion believe, in certain markets a T14 law degree is no stronger, even sometimes not as strong, as a degree from a local 2nd tier school that everyone in town is proud of. I currently live in a small city of about 200,000, where the local law school is the state flagship university, and the only school in the state with a higher ranking is a top 20 private school that kicks the local, flagship school's second-tier butt. However a quick perusal of the website of all the BigLaw firms in town reveals that they hire almost exclusively out of the local state school (which is ranked in the 50's). These are firms where the senior partners all graduated from this same place, and the mile-long list of associates did too.

At the little diner where I eat breakfast in the morning, I often find myself sitting next to an ancient lawyer named Arthur -- a very nice guy -- who is a name partner at one of these places with over 200 attorneys. One morning I asked him, "if your firm were hiring a new associate, how much preference, if any, would you give a candidate from [top-20 private school] over one from [2nd tier flagship university]? His answer?

"None."

"We wouldn't even consider that," he said; "most of us, myself included, went to [flagship university]. It's a great school; we'd look at other things."

[zot1]

But your situation is inherently different from OP. OP wants the ability to come back to Sacramento. That's hard to do with an ND Law degree. But more importantly, no 0L should think they can go anywhere just because of a promise of a job.

[HarveySpecterr]

But your situation is inherently different from OP. OP wants the ability to come back to Sacramento. That's hard to do with an ND Law degree. But more importantly, no 0L should think they can go anywhere just because of a promise of a job.

Yeah, I didn't mean it would apply directly to OP's situation; just remarking that, in general, there is more room for exceptions to the conventional "t14 or bust" wisdom.

For the record, I'm still shooting t14 because I don't want to be confined to this region after graduation.

But I'm still not convinced a Notre Dame law degree will lock OP out of working in Sacramento.

[zot1]

But your situation is inherently different from OP. OP wants the ability to come back to Sacramento. That's hard to do with an ND Law degree. But more importantly, no 0L should think they can go anywhere just because of a promise of a job.

Yeah, I didn't mean it would apply directly to OP's situation; just remarking that, in general, there is more room for exceptions to the conventional "t14 or bust" wisdom.

For the record, I'm still shooting t14 because I don't want to be confined to this region after graduation.

But I'm still not convinced a Notre Dame law degree will lock OP out of working in Sacramento.

You're right, it won't. There are plenty of Starbucks in Sacramento.

Joking aside, you're missing the point. I, for example, am not a t13 or bust person. I didn't even go to a ranked school. But ND just isn't the best choice given OP's stated goals.

[BigZuck]

There is no T14 or bust wisdom on this site

[cavalier1138]

But your situation is inherently different from OP. OP wants the ability to come back to Sacramento. That's hard to do with an ND Law degree. But more importantly, no 0L should think they can go anywhere just because of a promise of a job.

Yeah, I didn't mean it would apply directly to OP's situation; just remarking that, in general, there is more room for exceptions to the conventional "t14 or bust" wisdom.

For the record, I'm still shooting t14 because I don't want to be confined to this region after graduation.

But I'm still not convinced a Notre Dame law degree will lock OP out of working in Sacramento.

Please find me a "T14 of bust" thread.

Also, the OP isn't "problematizing" anything. They're making decisions based on bad criteria, which have nothing to do with employment opportunities.

[luckyirish13]

Despite what strict adherents to the TLS religion believe, in certain markets a T14 law degree is no stronger, even sometimes not as strong, as a degree from a local 2nd tier school that everyone in town is proud of. I currently live in a small city of about 200,000, where the local law school is the state flagship university, and the only school in the state with a higher ranking is a top 20 private school that kicks the local, flagship school's second-tier butt. However a quick perusal of the website of all the BigLaw firms in town reveals that they hire almost exclusively out of the local state school (which is ranked in the 50's). These are firms where the senior partners all graduated from this same place, and the mile-long list of associates did too.

At the little diner where I eat breakfast in the morning, I often find myself sitting next to an ancient lawyer named Arthur -- a very nice guy -- who is a name partner at one of these places with over 200 attorneys. One morning I asked him, "if your firm were hiring a new associate, how much preference, if any, would you give a candidate from [top-20 private school] over one from [2nd tier flagship university]? His answer?

"None."

"We wouldn't even consider that," he said; "most of us, myself included, went to [flagship university]. It's a great school; we'd look at other things."

This is exactly what I too have observed. In Sacramento, that regional flagship school is McGeorge School of Law (Pacific). It's not UC Davis or UC Irvine, even though those schools have much higher USNWR rankings. The school in Sacramento that employers all know and respect a degree from is McGeorge. There are more attorney's at my firm from McGeorge than any other school. The kids from McGeorge are working alongside the kids from Michigan or Virginia or Chicago. The same is true throughout the city. A degree from McGeorge isn't worth much outside of Sacramento, but it is great in this city, and you can get a full ride to go there.

I did my undergrad in San Diego, so I spent some time in that area and worked with lawyers as part of my job. University of San Diego is their flagship law school, and there are more attorney's I knew in San Diego from USD than any other school. USNWR rankings had nothing to do with it.

There's also ideological representation. For instance, I'm a libertarian, and I know that organizations like the Institute for Justice and the Cato Institute respect each other's hiring choices. If you've worked at one, you have a good chance at working for another. They stick together and a letter of recommendation from one gets you taken at another.

As an extreme example, my organization is conservative, and one of our attorney's is from Ave Maria Law, which is the most conservative/Catholic law school in the country, even though it's also an absolutely terrible (tier 4) school. They literally offer full ride scholarships for a 150 LSAT. Barf. But none of that matters, since she got conservative contacts from that school and now has a job doing important work in federal courts.

All of this is to say, if you intend to work regionally, or in public interest/ideologically motivated law, going to a t14 school is less valuable than region and ideology. That's why my first step in this process is to determine if BigLaw is what I want. If it is, then obviously the conventional wisdom applies. I would need to go to a top school like Northwestern, and then come out with a big salary at a connected BigLaw firm. But if BigLaw is not what I want (and I don't think it is) then all that stuff goes out the window. Look, I've taken some shit in this thread for not laying down and taking the TLS teachings as law, but that's because they're based on a central premise that does not apply to us all. I agree that those conventional means do work and are correct IF you are actually trying to get BigLaw. But if that is not the goal, then this oversimplified "go to t14, get biglaw, make money!" idea isn't necessary. Hence the existence of this thread.

For my purposes, a degree from a conservative school like Notre Dame (hell even Ave Maria) or a degree from a regional school like McGeorge will accomplish the same outcomes, almost certainly for less money than a t14.

[zot1]

OP, do come back in four years and update us on your life. Good luck!

[cavalier1138]

Never mind, OP. Go to Notre Dame and join whatever the school's "Law and Liberty" journal is. Enjoy your terrible life.