What's So Great About Biglaw? Forum

[grades??]

a lot of money. if you dont have a family and want to devote yourself to a career, its a good spot.
biglaw is tolerable for a time. but a career in biglaw and prioritizing family is almost impossible. (obviously family isnt for everyone) but usually family is what pulls people out of biglaw. tough to be there for a kid throughout their life (emotionally and the all the events in their life) in biglaw - let alone 2 or more.

Well I'm gonna marry the most beautiful girl in the world (she's in your avatar) and then I'll need some time at home of course . Jk but I certainly do need time outside of work, especially since I do hope to one day raise a family.

For me the main reason I was asking was because I already know that Notre Dame is where I want to go to school, but then it was a question of if it was the appropriate place for me to go to "law school" if that makes sense. Everything about me is drawn to Notre Dame, but the only thing giving me pause is that it's not a t14 and it's biglaw percentage is lower than some. So I needed to establish if that was a factor big enough to prevent me from trying to go there. If I wanted to get into Big Law, it's decent, though not elite. Northwestern would be a better bet for me on that front, but since Big Law probably isn't really for me, maybe Notre Dame is.

Also I do expect I would get some scholarship $$$ out of ND, and maybe even a full fellowship, (I have softs that would make me a prime candidate for a full ride fellowship they offer) so the money thing will most likely be manageable.

Who cares about your softs, unless you are jesus incarnate, you are gonna need the numbers to get the $$$

[RParadela]

I think you've painted BigLaw with way too broad of a paintbrush. First off, you described only one practice area in BigLaw, corporate M&A. There are a lot of other practices that differ from M&A quite a bit in BigLaw. Plus, everyone's BigLaw experiences will vary. Sure, there are plenty of people that are working like you described, particularly at the top end corporate firms. But there are also plenty of people that enjoy their jobs, do substantive work, and don't do corporate M&A while also working for a large law firm.

Edit: Also, in regards to school choice, better schools don't just offer better chances at getting BigLaw, they offer better chances at jobs across the board.

[luckyirish13]

Who cares about your softs, unless you are jesus incarnate, you are gonna need the numbers to get the $$$

Maybe I am . And I haven't taken the LSAT yet but my practice tests are between 168-173, which would give me a decent scholarship at ND, and the fellowship I mentioned is through a separate office but offers full tuition, and is based on idealogical philosophy. Again, that's part of why I like Notre Dame. I don't just wanna use them to get me to a career. I want to represent Notre Dame because I like them and a lot of what they stand for.

RParadela those are excellent points. I suppose it depends on the firm and you could wind up at a great BigLaw firm, but the odds of getting into one in the first place were already tough, and then to get lucky enough to find "one of the good ones" seems unlikely to me. Although I suppose that is a positive outcome if one can make it happen.

And true, going to a higher ranked school does create prospects, but I don't feel like Notre Dame would hurt my job prospects at the sorts of Non-Profits I'd be applying to. If anything I'd say it strengthen's my chances based on idealogy.

[grades??]

Who cares about your softs, unless you are jesus incarnate, you are gonna need the numbers to get the $$$

Maybe I am . And I haven't taken the LSAT yet but my practice tests are between 168-173, which would give me a decent scholarship at ND, and the fellowship I mentioned is through a separate office but offers full tuition, and is based on idealogical philosophy. Again, that's part of why I like Notre Dame. I don't just wanna use them to get me to a career. I want to represent Notre Dame because I like them and a lot of what they stand for.

RParadela those are excellent points. I suppose it depends on the firm and you could wind up at a great BigLaw firm, but the odds of getting into one in the first place were already tough, and then to get lucky enough to find "one of the good ones" seems unlikely to me. Although I suppose that is a positive outcome if one can make it happen.

And true, going to a higher ranked school does create prospects, but I don't feel like Notre Dame would hurt my job prospects at the sorts of Non-Profits I'd be applying to. If anything I'd say it strengthen's my chances based on idealogy.

Just fyi practice tests =/= actual score. I would be rich if I got a penny for every post on this forum saying they would score that highly because of practice tests and then they all freak out when they see their results. Its totally doable, but just because you do it on a practice test doesn't mean you will do it on the actual test. Until then, this is pretty pointless.

And also, a big chunk of people who go to ND law choose it for ideological/theological reasons as well. I know at least 5 people at ND law that either have a masters or phd in divinity and none got this special fellowship.

[nick417]

I really don't understand where this thread is going? (1) more money, (2) exit options, (3) prestige, (4) working with big clients, (5) pro bono opportunities. These are all good reasons why people go into big law. Also, big law takes the best law students in the country so you tend to be working with good legal minds (if you believe law school success is correlated with real world lawyering success).

But I find it comical that this question comes up frequently. Like there are overwhelming options for law grads that pay good money. Because it is easy to land that $80-$110K legal job right out of law school that lets you work 40 hours a week like a normal person. Graduates from my law school (non T-14): either you're either making 40-60K or 140K plus, not really much in the middle.

Mainly then, this is just about benefit calculations.

I don't personally see prestige/big clients as particularly interesting. Others might and that's fine but it doesn't weigh into my calculations.

So we have long hours vs big salary. The hours cancel the benefit of the salary to me since I wouldn't want to do a job without work life balance. Others might but not me.

Pro bono work vs. satisfying work. At best this is a wash, but at a public interest firm you do more actual "pro bono" work on interesting cases.

It is true that working at a big law firm is a resume booster, but so is working at a well known public interest firm.

So ultimately, this thread mostly confirms what I initially thought. The impact calculus may vary from person to person, but at least for me, I don't see the advantage of focusing primarily on Big Law. This is important as I try to determine which schools to prioritize.

@Cavalier: Oh I see what you mean. Yes I would have to make sure that my loans remain below a $12,000 annual payment, but that should be manageable. And yes, I would have to make sure to get a "yes we will have a position for you after law school" answer from our CEO, which I think would be a no brainer for him but certainly best to have it said.

You're right that big law isn't for anyone, but you're probably trying to justify going to a school that has bad employment outcomes for whatever reason. Good big law placement correlates with good job placement in general. There are plenty of terrible small law jobs out there that are just as stressful and unrewarding that law grads clamor for. Everybody at southwest state school of law isn't a ADA or whatever "meaningful" job you want.

Coming from a 0L, I don't think you really understand these differences. To pretend that only big law lawyers work long hours is misguided. Most jobs do not have the hourly demand like big law, but it is rare to find a 9-5 (5 days a week) job. I have even heard horror stories from judicial clerks working 45+ hours a week (and they make a fraction of what big law makes). So it does feel like you are trying to justify you career path instead actually seeking information.

Big law does not have to be your goal (that is not a requirement to go to law school). The way I have always seen it: (1) start at the top of the legal totem poll; (2) bank/invest/save a lot of money; (3) and then evaluate your career 3-4 years. If you hate it, you will have exit options. If you enjoy or can tolerate it, keep on going. This doesn't have to be your goal, but if you understand the unpredictable and underwhelming legal market, it makes a lot of sense. And it gives you lots of options in the future, especially if you bank/invest/save your excess big law salary.

[TheSpanishMain]

Yeah, OP, if you're just looking for someone to tell you that it's okay to go to Notre Dame: it's okay to go to Notre Dame, provided you have a guaranteed LRAP eligible job and you're fine with the career trajectory associated with that job. If those apply to you, knock yourself out.

[njdevils2626]

Who cares about your softs, unless you are jesus incarnate, you are gonna need the numbers to get the $$$

Maybe I am . And I haven't taken the LSAT yet but my practice tests are between 168-173, which would give me a decent scholarship at ND, and the fellowship I mentioned is through a separate office but offers full tuition, and is based on idealogical philosophy. Again, that's part of why I like Notre Dame. I don't just wanna use them to get me to a career. I want to represent Notre Dame because I like them and a lot of what they stand for.

RParadela those are excellent points. I suppose it depends on the firm and you could wind up at a great BigLaw firm, but the odds of getting into one in the first place were already tough, and then to get lucky enough to find "one of the good ones" seems unlikely to me. Although I suppose that is a positive outcome if one can make it happen.

And true, going to a higher ranked school does create prospects, but I don't feel like Notre Dame would hurt my job prospects at the sorts of Non-Profits I'd be applying to. If anything I'd say it strengthen's my chances based on idealogy.

I'd probably learn to spell ideology before relying on it for scholarships

[luckyirish13]

Just fyi practice tests =/= actual score. I would be rich if I got a penny for every post on this forum saying they would score that highly because of practice tests and then they all freak out when they see their results. Its totally doable, but just because you do it on a practice test doesn't mean you will do it on the actual test. Until then, this is pretty pointless.

And also, a big chunk of people who go to ND law choose it for ideological/theological reasons as well. I know at least 5 people at ND law that either have a masters or phd in divinity and none got this special fellowship.

I'm aware of all of this. At the moment this is all speculation since I am just in the planning phases. But with the assumption that I don't perform significantly below my capabilities on the LSAT, I will have some scholarship money (and possibly a lot) available.

@Nick, I wasn't really looking to argue with anyone. I wanted to know if there was a bigger benefit to BigLaw that I wasn't inititally factoring in that would cause me to put more emphasis on schools where a degree will help you get into BigLaw. I think that question has been mostly answered.

@SpanishMain, yeah that's pretty much where I'm at. Thanks for that.

[bmathers]

So, the best thing about getting into Biglaw is getting out (exit options)? This Biglaw thing sounds a lot like Ohio.

[twochipmunks]

Who cares about your softs, unless you are jesus incarnate, you are gonna need the numbers to get the $$$

Maybe I am . And I haven't taken the LSAT yet but my practice tests are between 168-173, which would give me a decent scholarship at ND, and the fellowship I mentioned is through a separate office but offers full tuition, and is based on idealogical philosophy. Again, that's part of why I like Notre Dame. I don't just wanna use them to get me to a career. I want to represent Notre Dame because I like them and a lot of what they stand for.

RParadela those are excellent points. I suppose it depends on the firm and you could wind up at a great BigLaw firm, but the odds of getting into one in the first place were already tough, and then to get lucky enough to find "one of the good ones" seems unlikely to me. Although I suppose that is a positive outcome if one can make it happen.

And true, going to a higher ranked school does create prospects, but I don't feel like Notre Dame would hurt my job prospects at the sorts of Non-Profits I'd be applying to. If anything I'd say it strengthen's my chances based on idealogy.

I know what fellowship you're talking about. I had a 175+ LSAT, 7 years full time non profit work experience dedicated specifically to the ideology this fellowship is about, and have family ties to ND; and they STILL rejected me from that fellowship. Don't count on it.

[twochipmunks]

I also wouldn't want Northwestern in the first place unless they gave me a full ride and Notre Dame didn't... and the full ride only comes from Early Decision.

It is possible to get a full ride at NU without doing ED. But virtually no one gets a full ride to ND. As someone who's accepted at both and likely has good scholarships from both (waiting on NU's offer), I would advise that NU ED would be a good option for you. If you don't get it then you just default to normal apps at both.

[Pomeranian]

Who cares about your softs, unless you are jesus incarnate, you are gonna need the numbers to get the $$$

Maybe I am . And I haven't taken the LSAT yet but my practice tests are between 168-173, which would give me a decent scholarship at ND, and the fellowship I mentioned is through a separate office but offers full tuition, and is based on idealogical philosophy. Again, that's part of why I like Notre Dame. I don't just wanna use them to get me to a career. I want to represent Notre Dame because I like them and a lot of what they stand for.

RParadela those are excellent points. I suppose it depends on the firm and you could wind up at a great BigLaw firm, but the odds of getting into one in the first place were already tough, and then to get lucky enough to find "one of the good ones" seems unlikely to me. Although I suppose that is a positive outcome if one can make it happen.

And true, going to a higher ranked school does create prospects, but I don't feel like Notre Dame would hurt my job prospects at the sorts of Non-Profits I'd be applying to. If anything I'd say it strengthen's my chances based on idealogy.

Apply to WUSTL, more generous with $ with the same employment stats as ND.

[RedPurpleBlue]

a lot of money. if you dont have a family and want to devote yourself to a career, its a good spot.
biglaw is tolerable for a time. but a career in biglaw and prioritizing family is almost impossible. (obviously family isnt for everyone) but usually family is what pulls people out of biglaw. tough to be there for a kid throughout their life (emotionally and the all the events in their life) in biglaw - let alone 2 or more.

Well I'm gonna marry the most beautiful girl in the world (she's in your avatar) and then I'll need some time at home of course . Jk but I certainly do need time outside of work, especially since I do hope to one day raise a family.

For me the main reason I was asking was because I already know that Notre Dame is where I want to go to school, but then it was a question of if it was the appropriate place for me to go to "law school" if that makes sense. Everything about me is drawn to Notre Dame, but the only thing giving me pause is that it's not a t14 and it's biglaw percentage is lower than some. So I needed to establish if that was a factor big enough to prevent me from trying to go there. If I wanted to get into Big Law, it's decent, though not elite. Northwestern would be a better bet for me on that front, but since Big Law probably isn't really for me, maybe Notre Dame is.

Also I do expect I would get some scholarship $$$ out of ND, and maybe even a full fellowship, (I have softs that would make me a prime candidate for a full ride fellowship they offer) so the money thing will most likely be manageable.

Who cares about your softs, unless you are jesus incarnate, you are gonna need the numbers to get the $$$

In general, I think OP is a bit of a dunce, but for Notre Dame's full (ish) ride fellowship (it's a few dollars short iirc) you don't actually need killer stats. I think softs play a large part for that specific fellowship. The person who got it last year had a 166 (Notre Dame's 75th is 165) and a 3.69 (Notre Dame's 50th is a 3.66). They were by all means an above average candidate, but they could have easily gotten <$100k. Anyway, continue critiquing OP for his narrow-minded and naive attitude; I fully endorse such activity.

[luckyirish13]

I also wouldn't want Northwestern in the first place unless they gave me a full ride and Notre Dame didn't... and the full ride only comes from Early Decision.

It is possible to get a full ride at NU without doing ED. But virtually no one gets a full ride to ND. As someone who's accepted at both and likely has good scholarships from both (waiting on NU's offer), I would advise that NU ED would be a good option for you. If you don't get it then you just default to normal apps at both.

That's a good thought, I might try that. I don't think I would go ED to them though, probably would apply early, but on a RD basis, so that I don't get bound to NU over ND. I really do like ND and would prefer to go there if it can be financially feasible. And yeah I am by no means "counting on" getting the ND fellowship. I just think I have a resume that would make me a great candidate for it, so it can't hurt to try. Also the girl who got this years fellowship will be a clerk at my office this summer so I'll get to talk to her about what she did to get it.

RedPurpleBlue you're entitled to your opinions, even if you failed to show the logical progression of how you reached your conclusions, and used ad hominem attacks rather than logical warrants. The truly narrow minded are those who follow the crowd without establishing a rational basis for doing so.

[twochipmunks]

I also wouldn't want Northwestern in the first place unless they gave me a full ride and Notre Dame didn't... and the full ride only comes from Early Decision.

It is possible to get a full ride at NU without doing ED. But virtually no one gets a full ride to ND. As someone who's accepted at both and likely has good scholarships from both (waiting on NU's offer), I would advise that NU ED would be a good option for you. If you don't get it then you just default to normal apps at both.

That's a good thought, I might try that. I don't think I would go ED to them though, probably would apply early, but on a RD basis, so that I don't get bound to NU over ND. I really do like ND and would prefer to go there if it can be financially feasible. And yeah I am by no means "counting on" getting the ND fellowship. I just think I have a resume that would make me a great candidate for it, so it can't hurt to try. Also the girl who got this years fellowship will be a clerk at my office this summer so I'll get to talk to her about what she did to get it.

RedPurpleBlue you're entitled to your opinions, even if you failed to show the logical progression of how you reached your conclusions, and used ad hominem attacks rather than logical warrants. The truly narrow minded are those who follow the crowd without establishing a rational basis for doing so.

Sounds like you'll likely have good options, regardless! If you talk to that girl I'd be interested in knowing what she says, haha

[shadowfax]

Notre Dame Law
Location: South Bend, Indiana
Percent of graduates who secure jobs at law firms with over 500 employees: 20%
Bar passage rate: 84%
Median LSAT score: 164

This is a from a recent Business Insider article. Assuming it is correct your odds at big law from ND are not all that great. Compared to say...

Northwestern Law
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Percent of graduates who secure jobs at law firms with over 500 employees: 51%
Bar passage rate: 87%
Median LSAT score: 168

As far as cheering on your team here's hoping we meet in the finals of the Frozen Four.

[RedPurpleBlue]

RedPurpleBlue you're entitled to your opinions, even if you failed to show the logical progression of how you reached your conclusions, and used ad hominem attacks rather than logical warrants. The truly narrow minded are those who follow the crowd without establishing a rational basis for doing so.

I didn't use any logical warrants, because the "crowd" has presented enough already. I think you need to take some real time and think about the schools you're looking at. University of the Pacific is NOT a well-regarded school anywhere if ~46% of students aren't getting job at lawyers. The same would be said about any medical school where ~46% of graduates don't get jobs at doctors. UC-Irvine, UC-Davis, and University of Washington would all be better options in Northern California, considering you have ties, than University of the Pacific. They would probably even be better options than Notre Dame. Picking Notre Dame just because it 1) resonates with you spiritually (or whatever) and 2)because you can mentally imagine yourself watching the games every Saturday until you die are not valid reasons to spend an exorbitant amount of money on getting an education there. Notre Dame Law is largely a regional school, despite its undergraduate counterpart having national reach. Only go to Notre Dame, if you 1) want an outside shot at NYC/Chicago BL or 2) would be fine practicing in the Midwest. Very few people make it back to California or other incredibly distant places. Also, Notre Dame's LRAP is not strong. It's fine. Look at UChicago's LRAP; that's a strong LRAP. You need to ground yourself, because right now you're flying blind in the clouds.

[luckyirish13]

RedPurpleBlue you're entitled to your opinions, even if you failed to show the logical progression of how you reached your conclusions, and used ad hominem attacks rather than logical warrants. The truly narrow minded are those who follow the crowd without establishing a rational basis for doing so.

I didn't use any logical warrants, because the "crowd" has presented enough already. I think you need to take some real time and think about the schools you're looking at. University of the Pacific is NOT a well-regarded school anywhere if ~46% of students aren't getting job at lawyers. The same would be said about any medical school where ~46% of graduates don't get jobs at doctors. UC-Irvine, UC-Davis, and University of Washington would all be better options in Northern California, considering you have ties, than University of the Pacific. They would probably even be better options than Notre Dame. Picking Notre Dame just because it 1) resonates with you spiritually (or whatever) and 2)because you can mentally imagine yourself watching the games every Saturday until you die are not valid reasons to spend an exorbitant amount of money on getting an education there. Notre Dame Law is largely a regional school, despite its undergraduate counterpart having national reach. Only go to Notre Dame, if you 1) want an outside shot at NYC/Chicago BL or 2) would be fine practicing in the Midwest. Very few people make it back to California or other incredibly distant places. Also, Notre Dame's LRAP is not strong. It's fine. Look at UChicago's LRAP; that's a strong LRAP. You need to ground yourself, because right now you're flying blind in the clouds.

That's better. Thank you for the warrants. Let me say again that I didn't start the thread to argue with people, I more wanted to find out if there were advantages to BigLaw I wasn't seeing, which would have changed my thought process on what to prioritize. But to respond to your criticisms, First I need to point out that my subjective decision making will be necessarily different than decisions made by others, because my situation/personality/mental makeup are different than others. You're entitled to disagree with certain things I find important, but if they matter to me they'll matter to me, because that is subjective. Now with that being said,

You're right that a more apt description for Notre Dame's LRAP is "fine" not "strong". It would be enough to cover my loan while I go to work at my firm here in Sacramento, thus giving me a solid backup option if nothing else works out. This is important because it means there is little or nothing for me to lose. I have a great option waiting for me no matter where I go to school (some have pointed out that I should confirm this with my organization and I agree with that point). So as long as the cost of tuition is kept reasonably in check with scholarship offers, the cost will be covered by LRAP. This also goes for Northwestern or any other school. Assuming their LRAP is "fine" or better, my interest in public interest law alleviates most of the worry about the cost of tuition.

Now, you're right that Notre Dame has a regional reach, and they are succesful at putting attorney's in the midwest, which, if I was not working in Sacramento or San Diego, is where I would want to go. This is why Northwestern is the other school I'd be looking at.

As for working in Northern California, I'm not drawn to the UC schools in California, having visited several of them. Pacific is good though. They wouldn't be my first choice but based on cost/outcome, it would most likely be quite efficient.
4 of the attorney's at my firm went to Pacific, and two of them have now argued before the Supreme Court, including one just last week. I would get a full ride to Pacific, and it does place people in California jobs, although their lower standards of admittance also mean a lot of less talented law students go there who don't make it in law later on. But among those who do get placed, they have very good numbers in Sacramento, but weak numbers elsewhere. This would limit me to working in Sacramento, but it would almost certainly result in me getting a job here at my firm, with law tuition paid in full. I would consider Pacific based on the scholarship and the knowledge that I can come back and work here.

Finally, I do like that Notre Dame is conservative, and I do like their sports program, and as someone of Irish descent, I particularly connect to and get excited about their history. I know myself, and I know that I perform well when I am interested in and excited by something. This means I would perform and learn better at a place I am excited about, which is why I believe Notre Dame would be the best option for me personally. It's not because it "resonates with me spiritually" (I'm agnostic) it's simply that I know I would push myself the most if I am truly excited by the school.

[foregetaboutdre]

Biglaw lures you in with a 9-5 SA and a quick 3k a week. Then you start and realize it's a 12 hr day job.

[cavalier1138]

Finally, I do like that Notre Dame is conservative, and I do like their sports program, and as someone of Irish descent, I particularly connect to and get excited about their history. I know myself, and I know that I perform well when I am interested in and excited by something. This means I would perform and learn better at a place I am excited about, which is why I believe Notre Dame would be the best option for me personally. It's not because it "resonates with me spiritually" (I'm agnostic) it's simply that I know I would push myself the most if I am truly excited by the school.

These are all godawful reasons to pick a law school. They should literally be the last things you consider, and they should only factor in when you are considering two absolutely equal choices at absolutely equal cost.

[luckyirish13]

Finally, I do like that Notre Dame is conservative, and I do like their sports program, and as someone of Irish descent, I particularly connect to and get excited about their history. I know myself, and I know that I perform well when I am interested in and excited by something. This means I would perform and learn better at a place I am excited about, which is why I believe Notre Dame would be the best option for me personally. It's not because it "resonates with me spiritually" (I'm agnostic) it's simply that I know I would push myself the most if I am truly excited by the school.

These are all godawful reasons to pick a law school. They should literally be the last things you consider, and they should only factor in when you are considering two absolutely equal choices at absolutely equal cost.

Maybe for you. But we are different people. For me personally, I know that managing my internal balance between logic and emotions requires me to find meaning or excitement or some other purpose, at which point I will perform at a high standard. I know that I stop trying when I don't care about what I'm doing, which is part of why I don't think BigLaw would be for me, and why I prioritize a school I would want to be part of and could get excited about. Better to be top 25% at Notre Dame than to flunk out of Harvard.

[slurp]

idk why you all are feeding the troll/someone who doesn't get it.

have fun at ND luckyirish! /thread

[luckyirish13]

Yeah I think the question has been answered. Thanks to those who gave answers.

[Bubbles1012]

This thread is unbelievable. OP will likely not do as well on the LSAT as his practice tests, get into ND with some money but not enough, decide to go because of the deep personal "connection" he feels and Saturday football games, and graduate with an obscene amount of debt towards the middle of the class because he just HAD to root for the football team on Saturdays instead of applying for jobs (since he already has one) or studying. He will blow off OCI because big law is just not for him and he has a job waiting, and when he follows up with his organization 3L year they won't have the funding to hire him, although surely it was a sure thing. He will have no job, very few prospects, and will have missed even the boat for public interest OCI and government honors. He will remember this thread. He will think why was I such an idiot? A lemming is born everyday. You are not a special snowflake. Notre Dame is not your calling, its a fucking school with a football program that is designed to make the school money by selling merchandise, not inspire you. Jesus christ, this is professional school. Its not undergrad, you are here to get a JOB, not root for football. GET REAL, and do it fast otherwise in 4-6 years you will be cursing your former self.

[BlendedUnicorn]

Don't know if this has been mentioned but beyond the pay, the benefits, and the exit options the number one reason people chose biglaw is because it's a job. It's not like there are millions of non biglaw jobs out there just waiting to hire law grads- things have improved a little in the field since the recession but the predictability of the biglaw hiring cycle is a huge selling point.