Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT Forum

[alpinespring]

.

[grades??]

You are right you can't pick them yourself. But in PHD admissions, at least in 2 fields, you submit those 2 test scores and the PHD admissions programs take the highest scores from the different tests. You yourself aren't doing it, but its a norm in certain PHD admissions. So, Harvard could do the same (if GRE stats are then required for ranking down the line) by just giving the total top score from the various sections in different tests.

Why would you assume HLS will do the same?

Im not assuming they will, I am just saying it is a possibility. If they do, then its the death of the lsat. Also, if they did do as I describe, it would help boost numbers even higher (again assuming that at some point they would have to disclose the GRE numbers).

Edit: I do agree however the most benefited group will be ivy leaguers who just sucked at the lsat.

[Easterbork]

This is an ATTACK on meritocracy!

[Npret]

It seems like kids from wealthy backgrounds at Ivy League schools will especially benefit from this,
as they can afford to take 2-3 gap years after college, build amazing softs abroad, and study for GRE
while Poor Joe must work at the unimpressive local office job to feed himself...

Previously, if Poor Joe studied LSAT on the weekends and did really well (170+) that was enough to make him "stand out."

But now, Poor Joe will be competing against Ivy League kids with amazing, mind-blowing softs and perfect GRE scores (rich and famous parents as a perk).

Poor Joe: Oklahoma City College / 3.8 / 171 (LSAT) / Small town office retail job (2 years)

Ivy Joe: Dartmouth / 3.8 / Perfect score (GRE) / Taught English in Moscow, Russia (2 years)

Who will HLS choose?

You are making a lot of unwarranted assumptions but I understand the world turned upside down and you're bitter.

[calmike]

Dammit. I should have applied to Harvard Law last fall!!

This is just a money ploy to get more applicants and more money.

I can't believe it.

[poptart123]

It seems like kids from wealthy backgrounds at Ivy League schools will especially benefit from this,
as they can afford to take 2-3 gap years after college, build amazing softs abroad, and study for GRE
while Poor Joe must work at the unimpressive local office job to feed himself...

Previously, if Poor Joe studied LSAT on the weekends and did really well (170+) that was enough to make him "stand out."

But now, Poor Joe will be competing against Ivy League kids with amazing, mind-blowing softs and perfect GRE scores (rich and famous parents as a perk).

Poor Joe: Oklahoma City College / 3.8 / 171 (LSAT) / Small town office retail job (2 years)

Ivy Joe: Dartmouth / 3.8 / Perfect score (GRE) / Taught English in Moscow, Russia (2 years)

Who will HLS choose?

You are making a lot of unwarranted assumptions but I understand the world turned upside down and you're bitter.

Yeah.. Why can't the rich kid already do this but replace the GRE with LSAT? And why can't the poor kid do this but replace LSAT with GRE?

[njdevils2626]

There has been tons of talk on these boards and elsewhere on the internet about law schools becoming a much less attractive option for top students. From what I remember reading, law schools have been pulling a steadily decreasing share of ivy league graduates who have instead decided on getting MBAs or doing whatever else with their lives. This seems to me to be a direct response to that reality, trying to attract applications from some of those ivy league grads who in recent years have decided against wasting their time with the LSAT and law school but who may now toss an application at Harvard just to see what might happen

[aptivych]

There has been tons of talk on these boards and elsewhere on the internet about law schools becoming a much less attractive option for top students. From what I remember reading, law schools have been pulling a steadily decreasing share of ivy league graduates who have instead decided on getting MBAs or doing whatever else with their lives. This seems to me to be a direct response to that reality, trying to attract applications from some of those ivy league grads who in recent years have decided against wasting their time with the LSAT and law school but who may now toss an application at Harvard just to see what might happen

Is there a substantial difference though between an ivy-league grad and another student who went to a regular 4-year public state university, in terms of the quality of the applicant pool and those who are eventually accepted? I went to a top 3 ivy league college myself (one of HYP), but I personally don't believe I'm better qualified to go to HLS than a non-ivy applicant just because of where I went undergrad. Oh well in any case, we'll see how this plays out.

[AJordan]

There has been tons of talk on these boards and elsewhere on the internet about law schools becoming a much less attractive option for top students. From what I remember reading, law schools have been pulling a steadily decreasing share of ivy league graduates who have instead decided on getting MBAs or doing whatever else with their lives. This seems to me to be a direct response to that reality, trying to attract applications from some of those ivy league grads who in recent years have decided against wasting their time with the LSAT and law school but who may now toss an application at Harvard just to see what might happen

Is there a substantial difference though between an ivy-league grad and another student who went to a regular 4-year public state university, in terms of the quality of the applicant pool and those who are eventually accepted? I went to a top 3 ivy league college myself (one of HYP), but I personally don't believe I'm better qualified to go to HLS than a non-ivy applicant just because of where I went undergrad. Oh well in any case, we'll see how this plays out.

It's really fucking hard to quantify that. If only there were a single standardized test that could help even out the playing field...

[Learned Throw Hands]

Harvard, you're out. GULC, get up and get back in there.

[aptivych]

"Will HLS report my LSAT score to the American Bar Association (ABA) if I take both the LSAT and the GRE?
Yes. If you take the LSAT, then we will report the LSAT score to the ABA."

From this it appears that if you've already taken the LSAT before and it's a sub-par score, it would potentially hurt you even if have a great GRE score and use that to apply... Am I right in thinking this?

[emkay625]

"Will HLS report my LSAT score to the American Bar Association (ABA) if I take both the LSAT and the GRE?
Yes. If you take the LSAT, then we will report the LSAT score to the ABA."

From this it appears that if you've already taken the LSAT before and it's a sub-par score, it would potentially hurt you even if have a great GRE score and use that to apply... Am I right in thinking this?

Yes. Harvard is required to report the LSAT score of any student who has one. Therefore, if you have a bad LSAT and a good GRE, you're out of luck.

Moral of the story if you have a great GPA: don't sit for the LSAT right now. Study for and ace the GRE. Apply to Harvard the first day apps open. Spend the time waiting studying for the LSAT, but don't register until you hear back from Harvard. If rejected, then register for and take he December LSAT and apply to other schools.

[aptivych]

"Will HLS report my LSAT score to the American Bar Association (ABA) if I take both the LSAT and the GRE?
Yes. If you take the LSAT, then we will report the LSAT score to the ABA."

From this it appears that if you've already taken the LSAT before and it's a sub-par score, it would potentially hurt you even if have a great GRE score and use that to apply... Am I right in thinking this?

Yes. Harvard is required to report the LSAT score of any student who has one. Therefore, if you have a bad LSAT and a good GRE, you're out of luck.

Moral of the story if you have a great GPA: don't sit for the LSAT right now. Study for and ace the GRE. Apply to Harvard the first day apps open. Spend the time waiting studying for the LSAT, but don't register until you hear back from Harvard. If rejected, then register for and take he December LSAT and apply to other schools.

Wow. Okay, time to start studying for the GRE then. What do you reckon they will do with LSAT cancellations? Since I've taken the test before (but canceled my score) will I not be allowed to apply with a GRE score? I should probably call up the admissions office and ask...

[Whillie]

"Will HLS report my LSAT score to the American Bar Association (ABA) if I take both the LSAT and the GRE?
Yes. If you take the LSAT, then we will report the LSAT score to the ABA."

From this it appears that if you've already taken the LSAT before and it's a sub-par score, it would potentially hurt you even if have a great GRE score and use that to apply... Am I right in thinking this?

Out of curiosity, whom are you quoting?

[aptivych]

"Will HLS report my LSAT score to the American Bar Association (ABA) if I take both the LSAT and the GRE?
Yes. If you take the LSAT, then we will report the LSAT score to the ABA."

From this it appears that if you've already taken the LSAT before and it's a sub-par score, it would potentially hurt you even if have a great GRE score and use that to apply... Am I right in thinking this?

Out of curiosity, whom are you quoting?

I'm sorry, I should have linked the source earlier.

It's from the Harvard Law School Admissions FAQ webpage:

http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmission ... q/#faq-2-9

[hcss11]

Edit: After thinking more about this today, (background: I'm shooting for a JD/MBA degree), I wonder if I should stick with the GMAT—this is why:

The GMAT is 4 timed sections, taking about 3hr30mins.

The GRE is 6 times sections taking about the same amount of time: 3hr45mins.

With the GMAT, I have more time to finish fewer questions.

With the GRE, I have about the same amount of time to finish 2 more sections worth of questions.

In my case, which do you guys think is more worth it—the GRE or the GMAT?

Seconded! Going to get my GRE prep materials right now lol :p

After doing minimal research on the GRE I do know that as a pretty serious splitter (LSAT > 75 almost everywhere) I'm 100% going to take the GRE as evidence of another data point of my abilities if this is going to be considered by the committee. So guess what, for some of us this is going to cost even more, Harvard.

I'm almost tempted to take it. I'm not a splitter but my 171 is obviously below the median, so I wonder if a near-perfect to perfect GRE will put me over the edge.

[Whillie]

"Will HLS report my LSAT score to the American Bar Association (ABA) if I take both the LSAT and the GRE?
Yes. If you take the LSAT, then we will report the LSAT score to the ABA."

From this it appears that if you've already taken the LSAT before and it's a sub-par score, it would potentially hurt you even if have a great GRE score and use that to apply... Am I right in thinking this?

Out of curiosity, whom are you quoting?

I'm sorry, I should have linked the source earlier.

It's from the Harvard Law School Admissions FAQ webpage:

http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmission ... q/#faq-2-9

Thanks. Wow. Hls is screwing the LSAC royally.

[ImGonnaTakeGRE]

Edit: After thinking more about this today, (background: I'm shooting for a JD/MBA degree), I wonder if I should stick with the GMAT—this is why:

The GMAT is 4 timed sections, taking about 3hr30mins.

The GRE is 6 times sections taking about the same amount of time: 3hr45mins.

With the GMAT, I have more time to finish fewer questions.

With the GRE, I have about the same amount of time to finish 2 more sections worth of questions.

In my case, which do you guys think is more worth it—the GRE or the GMAT?

Seconded! Going to get my GRE prep materials right now lol :p

After doing minimal research on the GRE I do know that as a pretty serious splitter (LSAT > 75 almost everywhere) I'm 100% going to take the GRE as evidence of another data point of my abilities if this is going to be considered by the committee. So guess what, for some of us this is going to cost even more, Harvard.

I'm almost tempted to take it. I'm not a splitter but my 171 is obviously below the median, so I wonder if a near-perfect to perfect GRE will put me over the edge.

My suspicion is that AdComs still prefer GMAT over GRE. For the record - I've been accepted to several M7 programs and took GRE (nontraditional background)

But first I would take practice exams for both - as they are two different exams - and see which one you feel more confident in. If you're going to get a better score on GRE (335+), then better to take than instead of getting like 710 on GMAT

[Npret]

"Will HLS report my LSAT score to the American Bar Association (ABA) if I take both the LSAT and the GRE?
Yes. If you take the LSAT, then we will report the LSAT score to the ABA."

From this it appears that if you've already taken the LSAT before and it's a sub-par score, it would potentially hurt you even if have a great GRE score and use that to apply... Am I right in thinking this?

Out of curiosity, whom are you quoting?

I'm sorry, I should have linked the source earlier.

It's from the Harvard Law School Admissions FAQ webpage:

http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmission ... q/#faq-2-9

Thanks. Wow. Hls is screwing the LSAC royally.

LSAC deserves it. I hope other schools follow along. Maybe USNews can add it to ranking as a sort of bonus question.

[lawlorbust]

It seems like kids from wealthy backgrounds at Ivy League schools will especially benefit from this,
as they can afford to take 2-3 gap years after college, build amazing softs abroad, and study for GRE
while Poor Joe must work at the unimpressive local office job to feed himself...

Previously, if Poor Joe studied LSAT on the weekends and did really well (170+) that was enough to make him "stand out."

But now, Poor Joe will be competing against Ivy League kids with amazing, mind-blowing softs and perfect GRE scores (rich and famous parents as a perk).

Poor Joe: Oklahoma City College / 3.8 / 171 (LSAT) / Small town office retail job (2 years)

Ivy Joe: Dartmouth / 3.8 / Perfect score (GRE) / Taught English in Moscow, Russia (2 years)

Who will HLS choose?

You are making a lot of unwarranted assumptions but I understand the world turned upside down and you're bitter.

Exactly. Seriously, just chill. You're going to a fine school. Damn fine.

[coolestkidever]

If many schools start accepting the GRE, the biggest effect would be a greater percentage of incoming classes having STEM degrees. I would argue that without a proper disclaimer, this is going to negatively affect liberal arts students who think the now crazy good employment stats mean that law school at/near sticker is now justifiable.

The way schools will justify more STEM = good for law is cause there is a lot of demand. I think the solution is to rather make it easier for non STEM students to sit for the patent bar...because I'd very much argue that much of what you learned in undergrad is forgotten by the time you sit for this exam.

[rpupkin]

If many schools start accepting the GRE, the biggest effect would be a greater percentage of incoming classes having STEM degrees. I would argue that without a proper disclaimer, this is going to negatively affect liberal arts students who think the now crazy good employment stats mean that law school at/near sticker is now justifiable.

The way schools will justify more STEM = good for law is cause there is a lot of demand. I think the solution is to rather make it easier for non STEM students to sit for the patent bar...because I'd very much argue that much of what you learned in undergrad is forgotten by the time you sit for this exam.

I seriously doubt that many HLS students sit for the patent bar. I don't think that's what this change is about. HLS is not trying to turn itself into GW.

[Platopus]

Moral of the story if you have a great GPA: don't sit for the LSAT right now. Study for and ace the GRE. Apply to Harvard the first day apps open. Spend the time waiting studying for the LSAT, but don't register until you hear back from Harvard. If rejected, then register for and take he December LSAT and apply to other schools.

Assuming other schools don't follow trend, at least for the 2017 cycle, I see this being the case for a number of high GPA applicants, who may get accepted to Harvard, consider that enough and never take the LSAT (which would open the door to $$$ at CCN and down). I consider this a good thing for those looking for $$$.

[coolestkidever]

If many schools start accepting the GRE, the biggest effect would be a greater percentage of incoming classes having STEM degrees. I would argue that without a proper disclaimer, this is going to negatively affect liberal arts students who think the now crazy good employment stats mean that law school at/near sticker is now justifiable.

The way schools will justify more STEM = good for law is cause there is a lot of demand. I think the solution is to rather make it easier for non STEM students to sit for the patent bar...because I'd very much argue that much of what you learned in undergrad is forgotten by the time you sit for this exam.

I seriously doubt that many HLS students sit for the patent bar. I don't think that's what this change is about. HLS is not trying to turn itself into GW.

I wasn't talking about HLS -- more about other schools that don't have the lay prestige of HYS.

These schools would have a very strong incentive to recruit more STEM students, and a very easy way would be to accept the GRE.

But the incentivization is in the wrong place. It should be at the bar level, not at the admissions level.

[ImGonnaTakeGRE]

Moral of the story if you have a great GPA: don't sit for the LSAT right now. Study for and ace the GRE. Apply to Harvard the first day apps open. Spend the time waiting studying for the LSAT, but don't register until you hear back from Harvard. If rejected, then register for and take he December LSAT and apply to other schools.

Assuming other schools don't follow trend, at least for the 2017 cycle, I see this being the case for a number of high GPA applicants, who may get accepted to Harvard, consider that enough and never take the LSAT (which would open the door to $$$ at CCN and down). I consider this a good thing for those looking for $$$.

Assuming they submit on the first day applications are available, when's the earliest HLS applicants find out whether they are accepted? After the Dec LSAT date right? If someone is seriously thinking about law school, they will still have to take LSATs... unless someone wants to put all their eggs into the HLS basket with GRE scores (seems risky because there's literally no historical data on how the admissions committee interprets that data; I doubt that they even fully understand how to interpret GRE vs LSAT at this point). Would be an incredible waste of time & resources to prepare for 2 different exams... and I warn people not to underestimate the difficulty for GRE.

Very early but this just feels like a win-win for Harvard. First off, they entice people pursuing STEM, MBAs, dual degrees, resulting in a more diverse class. This is exactly why business schools started accepting GRE - to attract candidates from different fields, but especially women & minority students. Not to mention that it allows HLS to be more selective, resulting in better metrics for the law school rankings (not that I think they're going to worry about HLS ranking/reputation anytime soon...)