Harvard to Allow GRE in Place of LSAT Forum

[cavalier1139]

...

...

This isn't going to end well, is it?

Oops, I'll make a new account....

and hi.

[Ericwa]

Actually my question is that can you only submit GRE if you have taken or plan to take LSAT? I feel like it may be the case that as long as you have taken/plan to take LSAT, H will know and your GRE wont matter..

[ImGonnaTakeGRE]

But the next question is can someone take the gre 15 times until they get a great score and then apply with just that score? I know for many phd programs they do what undergrads do with the sat- take the highest section scores and combine them. So I could take the test 15 times and just get perfect scores on both sections at different times and combine them. That is a norm with gre phd admissions, but certainly not Lsat law school admissions. I wonder how they will deal with this.

There are limits to how many times you can take GRE - up to 5 times in calendar year (https://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general/faq)

Obviously not as restrictive as LSAT guidelines but still, don't count on taking 15 times

[freekick]

Well, that and the need to outlay $200k for tuition plus all of the other time to get stuff sorted for applications. That said, I get why people would be upset. I think this is mostly going to hurt fringe admits, and the high GRE will replace their low LSATs. Due to the way the tests are structured, there isn't really an equivalent to a 176 on the GRE. A perfect score on the GRE roughly encompasses the entire band of 172-180 if we go by percentiles.

IIRC, it's a little broader than that, because a flawless score in the analytical section of the GRE is like 96th percentile; there are loads of STEM majors who take the test, and a lots of them only get the analytical questions wrong when they make a dumb mistake. The verbal section is a little more tightly-pegged at the high end, but it's still not incredibly difficult to do exceedingly well on.

My own personal experience, having taken both tests, is that the GRE is a cakewalk. I took a day off of studying for the LSAT to go over a GRE practice test and brush up on formal geometry a couple of days before sitting for the GRE, and got perfect score on it. I'd be seriously shocked if someone who did reasonably well on the LSAT was unable to crush the GRE.

This is exactly right and touches upon what I said earlier which someone called a bold and incorrect assumption without explaining further.

[ImGonnaTakeGRE]

Well, that and the need to outlay $200k for tuition plus all of the other time to get stuff sorted for applications. That said, I get why people would be upset. I think this is mostly going to hurt fringe admits, and the high GRE will replace their low LSATs. Due to the way the tests are structured, there isn't really an equivalent to a 176 on the GRE. A perfect score on the GRE roughly encompasses the entire band of 172-180 if we go by percentiles.

IIRC, it's a little broader than that, because a flawless score in the analytical section of the GRE is like 96th percentile; there are loads of STEM majors who take the test, and a lots of them only get the analytical questions wrong when they make a dumb mistake. The verbal section is a little more tightly-pegged at the high end, but it's still not incredibly difficult to do exceedingly well on.

My own personal experience, having taken both tests, is that the GRE is a cakewalk. I took a day off of studying for the LSAT to go over a GRE practice test and brush up on formal geometry a couple of days before sitting for the GRE, and got perfect score on it. I'd be seriously shocked if someone who did reasonably well on the LSAT was unable to crush the GRE.

This is exactly right and touches upon what I said earlier which someone called a bold and incorrect assumption without explaining further.

I don't necessarily disagree with the premise of the statement but I'd be curious to see if the original poster indeed got a perfect score on a practice GRE or the actual GRE. Because as someone who took GRE and got into several M7 business schools with the score, I think people are really underestimating the difficulty of GRE.

[Veil of Ignorance]

What do you all think the chances are that other schools are going to implement this policy during the next cycle as well? Do you think they'll wait to see how it affects Harvard, first?

[Scurvy Cur]

Well, that and the need to outlay $200k for tuition plus all of the other time to get stuff sorted for applications. That said, I get why people would be upset. I think this is mostly going to hurt fringe admits, and the high GRE will replace their low LSATs. Due to the way the tests are structured, there isn't really an equivalent to a 176 on the GRE. A perfect score on the GRE roughly encompasses the entire band of 172-180 if we go by percentiles.

IIRC, it's a little broader than that, because a flawless score in the analytical section of the GRE is like 96th percentile; there are loads of STEM majors who take the test, and a lots of them only get the analytical questions wrong when they make a dumb mistake. The verbal section is a little more tightly-pegged at the high end, but it's still not incredibly difficult to do exceedingly well on.

My own personal experience, having taken both tests, is that the GRE is a cakewalk. I took a day off of studying for the LSAT to go over a GRE practice test and brush up on formal geometry a couple of days before sitting for the GRE, and got perfect score on it. I'd be seriously shocked if someone who did reasonably well on the LSAT was unable to crush the GRE.

This is exactly right and touches upon what I said earlier which someone called a bold and incorrect assumption without explaining further.

I don't necessarily disagree with the premise of the statement but I'd be curious to see if the original poster indeed got a perfect score on a practice GRE or the actual GRE. Because as someone who took GRE and got into several M7 business schools with the score, I think people are really underestimating the difficulty of GRE.

Actual GRE was 170/170; LSAT was 171 (though part of me stubbornly wants to believe I could have done better).

I actually almost goofed up the analytical section, because I had forgotten that the diagonal of any rectangle inscribed in a circle is also the diameter of that circle, but remembered it with like a minute to go on the section. It was otherwise fairly straightforward, though the fact that you get the double essay writing section at the start of the test means you run the risk of getting a verbal section for which you're a little mentally fatigued right afterwards.

[34iplaw]

Well, that and the need to outlay $200k for tuition plus all of the other time to get stuff sorted for applications. That said, I get why people would be upset. I think this is mostly going to hurt fringe admits, and the high GRE will replace their low LSATs. Due to the way the tests are structured, there isn't really an equivalent to a 176 on the GRE. A perfect score on the GRE roughly encompasses the entire band of 172-180 if we go by percentiles.

IIRC, it's a little broader than that, because a flawless score in the analytical section of the GRE is like 96th percentile; there are loads of STEM majors who take the test, and a lots of them only get the analytical questions wrong when they make a dumb mistake. The verbal section is a little more tightly-pegged at the high end, but it's still not incredibly difficult to do exceedingly well on.

My own personal experience, having taken both tests, is that the GRE is a cakewalk. I took a day off of studying for the LSAT to go over a GRE practice test and brush up on formal geometry a couple of days before sitting for the GRE, and got perfect score on it. I'd be seriously shocked if someone who did reasonably well on the LSAT was unable to crush the GRE.

Ah understood - I was going off of maybe aggregates? Not really sure. I think the source was ETS. I haven't sat for the actual test, but I took a practice one on Manhattan Prep last night at like 1:30am-3:00am. Scored ~164 cold with 10-15 min left per section, being fairly lackadaisical, and even just flat out skipping problems that required much writing (i.e. a handful of math ones that were easy but just required ~10 calc). I was considering applying for dual degree (JDMBA or JDMUP) while in law school. Def ignoring the GMAT for now.

I will give the GRE that it has some pretty weird vocab. I don't really get why it has so much vocab but whatever.

[fakemoney]

smfh Harvard pulling Cooley move

[SlackOff]

I really hope this doesn't catch on with other schools.

That would ruin things for splitters. A high GRE isn't enough to counteract a low GPA, but if they start taking the GRE, the LSAT will become more meaningless itself, and it won't be worth it to schools to take a splitter.

[grades??]

But the next question is can someone take the gre 15 times until they get a great score and then apply with just that score? I know for many phd programs they do what undergrads do with the sat- take the highest section scores and combine them. So I could take the test 15 times and just get perfect scores on both sections at different times and combine them. That is a norm with gre phd admissions, but certainly not Lsat law school admissions. I wonder how they will deal with this.

There are limits to how many times you can take GRE - up to 5 times in calendar year (https://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general/faq)

Obviously not as restrictive as LSAT guidelines but still, don't count on taking 15 times[/quotMe]


You're right, the 15 times is an exaggeration, but still doesn't address the point about using sections from different tests for a max score. Because if that's allowed, then it would be the total death of the Lsat.

[34iplaw]

I really want to see the following:

1) Will Harvard have to report LSAT scores for anyone who has taken it or will there be a special way of applying only with the GRE?

-If the former, how will Harvard treat the following people assuming all else equal: 176 LSAT first take, 170 GRE first take, 168 LSAT first take -> 175 LSAT second take, and 168 LSAT first take -> 170 GRE second take.

In this hypothetical if Harvard has to report any LSAT taken, the 168 -> 170 kid is screwed IMO, and that's a bit telling what it's really about IMO - raising their medians without cutting their class size as LSAT takers drop.

The LSAT isn't the main reason law school applications are dropping. It's because being a lawyer isn't the cool thing directionless smart kids do anymore. They learn to program and make $100k their first year out of college or a bootcamp.

[ImGonnaTakeGRE]

But the next question is can someone take the gre 15 times until they get a great score and then apply with just that score? I know for many phd programs they do what undergrads do with the sat- take the highest section scores and combine them. So I could take the test 15 times and just get perfect scores on both sections at different times and combine them. That is a norm with gre phd admissions, but certainly not Lsat law school admissions. I wonder how they will deal with this.

There are limits to how many times you can take GRE - up to 5 times in calendar year (https://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general/faq)

Obviously not as restrictive as LSAT guidelines but still, don't count on taking 15 times[/quotMe]


You're right, the 15 times is an exaggeration, but still doesn't address the point about using sections from different tests for a max score. Because if that's allowed, then it would be the total death of the Lsat.

Wait till you hear this - you can choose to send only the GRE scores you want to send. You can't combine scores from different exam dates but still huge benefit of GRE

Edit: Not to mention you can find out your Quant/Verbal scores immediately post exam and decide whether to keep the score or not. You don't know your writing score but a) really easy to get 4.5+; and b) no one really cares

[Npret]

But the next question is can someone take the gre 15 times until they get a great score and then apply with just that score? I know for many phd programs they do what undergrads do with the sat- take the highest section scores and combine them. So I could take the test 15 times and just get perfect scores on both sections at different times and combine them. That is a norm with gre phd admissions, but certainly not Lsat law school admissions. I wonder how they will deal with this.

There are limits to how many times you can take GRE - up to 5 times in calendar year (https://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general/faq)

Obviously not as restrictive as LSAT guidelines but still, don't count on taking 15 times[/quotMe]


You're right, the 15 times is an exaggeration, but still doesn't address the point about using sections from different tests for a max score. Because if that's allowed, then it would be the total death of the Lsat.

Wait till you hear this - you can choose to send only the GRE scores you want to send. You can't combine scores from different exam dates but still huge benefit of GRE

Why does it matter if schools only consider your highest LSAT when you retake? Isn't it the same thing?

[ImGonnaTakeGRE]

But the next question is can someone take the gre 15 times until they get a great score and then apply with just that score? I know for many phd programs they do what undergrads do with the sat- take the highest section scores and combine them. So I could take the test 15 times and just get perfect scores on both sections at different times and combine them. That is a norm with gre phd admissions, but certainly not Lsat law school admissions. I wonder how they will deal with this.

There are limits to how many times you can take GRE - up to 5 times in calendar year (https://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general/faq)

Obviously not as restrictive as LSAT guidelines but still, don't count on taking 15 times[/quotMe]


You're right, the 15 times is an exaggeration, but still doesn't address the point about using sections from different tests for a max score. Because if that's allowed, then it would be the total death of the Lsat.

Wait till you hear this - you can choose to send only the GRE scores you want to send. You can't combine scores from different exam dates but still huge benefit of GRE

Why does it matter if schools only consider your highest LSAT when you retake? Isn't it the same thing?

Don't some schools average your scores? I'm not as familiar with the law school process as I used to be because I pivoted towards MBA route. Also I suspect that law schools definitely look at ALL of your scores, even if their official statement might be that it doesn't matter

Edit: Just checked Columbia's official stance and they state that they look at all of your scores (http://www.law.columbia.edu/admissions/ ... le%20LSATS)

[jingosaur]

But the next question is can someone take the gre 15 times until they get a great score and then apply with just that score? I know for many phd programs they do what undergrads do with the sat- take the highest section scores and combine them. So I could take the test 15 times and just get perfect scores on both sections at different times and combine them. That is a norm with gre phd admissions, but certainly not Lsat law school admissions. I wonder how they will deal with this.

There are limits to how many times you can take GRE - up to 5 times in calendar year (https://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general/faq)

Obviously not as restrictive as LSAT guidelines but still, don't count on taking 15 times[/quotMe]


You're right, the 15 times is an exaggeration, but still doesn't address the point about using sections from different tests for a max score. Because if that's allowed, then it would be the total death of the Lsat.

Wait till you hear this - you can choose to send only the GRE scores you want to send. You can't combine scores from different exam dates but still huge benefit of GRE

Why does it matter if schools only consider your highest LSAT when you retake? Isn't it the same thing?

There is only 1 LSAT score though. Imagine if people who retake the LSAT could get their score by using their best LG section, best LR sections, and best RC section even if they all happened on different tries.

[christmascookie]

I'm freaking out because I want to go to Harvard and have a 172/3.97. I feel like this is going to hurt people who are just below median LSAT...?

[grades??]

But the next question is can someone take the gre 15 times until they get a great score and then apply with just that score? I know for many phd programs they do what undergrads do with the sat- take the highest section scores and combine them. So I could take the test 15 times and just get perfect scores on both sections at different times and combine them. That is a norm with gre phd admissions, but certainly not Lsat law school admissions. I wonder how they will deal with this.

There are limits to how many times you can take GRE - up to 5 times in calendar year (https://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general/faq)

Obviously not as restrictive as LSAT guidelines but still, don't count on taking 15 times[/quotMe]


You're right, the 15 times is an exaggeration, but still doesn't address the point about using sections from different tests for a max score. Because if that's allowed, then it would be the total death of the Lsat.

Wait till you hear this - you can choose to send only the GRE scores you want to send. You can't combine scores from different exam dates but still huge benefit of GRE

Why does it matter if schools only consider your highest LSAT when you retake? Isn't it the same thing?

There is only 1 LSAT score though. Imagine if people who retake the LSAT could get their score by using their best LG section, best LR sections, and best RC section even if they all happened on different tries.

Exactly the point. This is batshit insanity.

[Npret]

But the next question is can someone take the gre 15 times until they get a great score and then apply with just that score? I know for many phd programs they do what undergrads do with the sat- take the highest section scores and combine them. So I could take the test 15 times and just get perfect scores on both sections at different times and combine them. That is a norm with gre phd admissions, but certainly not Lsat law school admissions. I wonder how they will deal with this.

There are limits to how many times you can take GRE - up to 5 times in calendar year (https://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general/faq)

Obviously not as restrictive as LSAT guidelines but still, don't count on taking 15 times[/quotMe]


You're right, the 15 times is an exaggeration, but still doesn't address the point about using sections from different tests for a max score. Because if that's allowed, then it would be the total death of the Lsat.

Wait till you hear this - you can choose to send only the GRE scores you want to send. You can't combine scores from different exam dates but still huge benefit of GRE

Why does it matter if schools only consider your highest LSAT when you retake? Isn't it the same thing?

Don't some schools average your scores? I'm not as familiar with the law school process as I used to be because I pivoted towards MBA route. Also I suspect that law schools definitely look at ALL of your scores, even if their official statement might be that it doesn't matter

Edit: Just checked Columbia's official stance and they state that they look at all of your scores (http://www.law.columbia.edu/admissions/ ... le%20LSATS)

Actually it's the opposite, they say it matters and it doesn't. They only have to report your highest score. That doesn't mean they don't glance at the numbers but people can write addendums for some previous truly abysmal performance. Only Yale seems to actually care.

[gargleblaster]

Why does everyone think that Harvard will give AF about what GRE score people get? If they don't have an LSAT, Harvard can accept people that impact their GPA median without affecting their LSAT median. This allows several possibilities that I can see on who then can now admit more of:


1) rich/famous ppl that have connections to the school (so they know not to take the LSAT)
2) all other people with high GPA's that may not get good LSAT's (see all ivy grads due to grade inflation)
All other people that get poor LSAT's
3) URM's


If they do this, they can bump both their LSAT and GPA medians, and accept more of the people that they want without having to suffer the hits to their medians - looks like a win/win/win for them.

Whether or not the GRE is "easier" is irrelevant, since they won't care what score you get.

[ImGonnaTakeGRE]

But the next question is can someone take the gre 15 times until they get a great score and then apply with just that score? I know for many phd programs they do what undergrads do with the sat- take the highest section scores and combine them. So I could take the test 15 times and just get perfect scores on both sections at different times and combine them. That is a norm with gre phd admissions, but certainly not Lsat law school admissions. I wonder how they will deal with this.

There are limits to how many times you can take GRE - up to 5 times in calendar year (https://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general/faq)

Obviously not as restrictive as LSAT guidelines but still, don't count on taking 15 times[/quotMe]


You're right, the 15 times is an exaggeration, but still doesn't address the point about using sections from different tests for a max score. Because if that's allowed, then it would be the total death of the Lsat.

Wait till you hear this - you can choose to send only the GRE scores you want to send. You can't combine scores from different exam dates but still huge benefit of GRE

Why does it matter if schools only consider your highest LSAT when you retake? Isn't it the same thing?

There is only 1 LSAT score though. Imagine if people who retake the LSAT could get their score by using their best LG section, best LR sections, and best RC section even if they all happened on different tries.

Exactly the point. This is batshit insanity.

Apologies - I don't think I'm being clear. So the scenario described CAN'T happen with GRE as ScoreSelect (https://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general ... oreselect/) means you can pick among the 3 options:

• 1. Most Recent — Send your scores from your most recent test administration.

• 2. All — Send your scores from all test administrations in the last five years.

• 3. Any — Send your scores from one OR as many test administrations as you like from the last five years.

So let's say you take GRE twice. The first time you get a perfect score in verbal but mediocre score in math. The second time you get a perfect score in math and a mediocre score in verbal. You can't then only pick the 2 perfect scores from 2 different test administrations.

[SlackOff]

Why does everyone think that Harvard will give AF about what GRE score people get? If they don't have an LSAT, Harvard can accept people that impact their GPA median without affecting their LSAT median. This allows several possibilities that I can see on who then can now admit more of:


1) rich/famous ppl that have connections to the school (so they know not to take the LSAT)
2) all other people with high GPA's that may not get good LSAT's (see all ivy grads due to grade inflation)
All other people that get poor LSAT's
3) URM's


If they do this, they can bump both their LSAT and GPA medians, and accept more of the people that they want without having to suffer the hits to their medians - looks like a win/win/win for them.

Whether or not the GRE is "easier" is irrelevant, since they won't care what score you get.

Win win win... Except for the splitters.
I hope this doesn't catch on.

[grades??]

But the next question is can someone take the gre 15 times until they get a great score and then apply with just that score? I know for many phd programs they do what undergrads do with the sat- take the highest section scores and combine them. So I could take the test 15 times and just get perfect scores on both sections at different times and combine them. That is a norm with gre phd admissions, but certainly not Lsat law school admissions. I wonder how they will deal with this.

There are limits to how many times you can take GRE - up to 5 times in calendar year (https://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general/faq)




You're right, the 15 times is an exaggeration, but still doesn't address the point about using sections from different tests for a max score. Because if that's allowed, then it would be the total death of the Lsat.

Wait till you hear this - you can choose to send only the GRE scores you want to send. You can't combine scores from different exam dates but still huge benefit of GRE

Why does it matter if schools only consider your highest LSAT when you retake? Isn't it the same thing?

There is only 1 LSAT score though. Imagine if people who retake the LSAT could get their score by using their best LG section, best LR sections, and best RC section even if they all happened on different tries.

Exactly the point. This is batshit insanity.

Apologies - I don't think I'm being clear. So the scenario described CAN'T happen with GRE as ScoreSelect (https://www.ets.org/gre/revised_general ... oreselect/) means you can pick among the 3 options:

• 1. Most Recent — Send your scores from your most recent test administration.

• 2. All — Send your scores from all test administrations in the last five years.

• 3. Any — Send your scores from one OR as many test administrations as you like from the last five years.

So let's say you take GRE twice. The first time you get a perfect score in verbal but mediocre score in math. The second time you get a perfect score in math and a mediocre score in verbal. You can't then only pick the 2 perfect scores from 2 different test administrations.[/quote]

You are right you can't pick them yourself. But in PHD admissions, at least in 2 fields, you submit those 2 test scores and the PHD admissions programs take the highest scores from the different tests. You yourself aren't doing it, but its a norm in certain PHD admissions. So, Harvard could do the same (if GRE stats are then required for ranking down the line) by just giving the total top score from the various sections in different tests.

[Monday]

.

[34iplaw]

You are right you can't pick them yourself. But in PHD admissions, at least in 2 fields, you submit those 2 test scores and the PHD admissions programs take the highest scores from the different tests. You yourself aren't doing it, but its a norm in certain PHD admissions. So, Harvard could do the same (if GRE stats are then required for ranking down the line) by just giving the total top score from the various sections in different tests.

Why would you assume HLS will do the same?

Do schools even know what option you pick or do they just get what you send them? i.e. if you pick only your most recent score, would Harvard have any way of knowing that? (I'm totally oblivious about the GRE)

edit: I don't think it's the worst thing in the world, but I really don't think it's anything more than a scheme to keep medians without cutting class sizes.