2018 USNWR Rankings Forum

[Hikikomorist]

Just saw your CS comment: Cornell has a pretty good CS program, and I've seen some of the bonkers numbers being thrown around at FB/GOOG/MSFT/AMZN for coders. It depends on school, internships, github page, and interviewing, but I've seen some packages starting out well over $200k for the first year.

For example: $130k base, $100k signing bonus, $200k stock vesting over 3.5 years, ~10% bonus.

That's a 22 year old CS grad making $280k his first year and then maybe $190k the next year (depending on raises).

Jesus. How large a contingent are we talking about who are receiving those offers?

[FascinatedWanderer]

A quick linkedin search on past employer McKinsey with school Bentley turned up 32 people. Same search for Columbia turned up about 200,000.

Bain turns up a whopping 78 for Bentley. Really crushing it.

Sorry for edits.

Columbia has significantly more alumni than Bentley on LinkedIn so yeah no shit. And again I didn't imply at any point that Bentley is better than an Ivy League, but to say Bentley is a bad school is just wrong. They do place well into the top banks, consulting and accounting firms especially considering the school was established in 1917 and you're comparing it to Columbia which has been around since the 1700s. I could really care less what you think however to get back to my original point before this pointless discussion was started undergrad prestige is stupid because aside form the Ivies there are very few schools that are considered top schools for multiple things. In general a 3.7-4.0 GPA regardless of where you went to undergrad is going to open doors for you.

I am so sorry I offended you. Truly I cannot say that enough. I know how deeply shameful it must be for you and your family that you went to Bentley, so I will drop the issue. Again, my condolences that you went to Bentley.

You didn't offend me. That would imply I care what you think.

Never change. You might be a good candidate for SullCrom down the line if you go to a better law school than Bentley is an undergrad school.

[wiz]

Maybe it's my poor upbringing/lack of imagination, but I can't think of UG equivalents to clerkships/ACLU-like organizations that would pull graduates away from MBB/IB/Google in significant numbers. For example, at my school at least, TFA wasn't attracting the top graduates. I guess you could take 5 percent from the 40 percent to account for prestigious fellowships (which we still haven't ranked!).

I agree with you, man, and I don't know too many people who turned down $200k for TFA either.

I just got roasted for the MBB/IB/Google argument earlier, so I'm trying to be more careful about the salary-based assumptions I make now.

And I feel like a lot of people who take a fellowship or TFA or do another stint in their 20s exploring their passions end up getting closer to their earning potential later in life as they start families and have more expenses, so maybe weight midcareer salary heavier?

Maybe jobs with prestigious newspapers and working on the hill? I'm not that sure, though. That said, I'm pretty sure that IB analysts do not start near $200k even with their bonus, and I'm fairly certain (I'd dare to say positive) that MBB analysts do not start near $200k.


For computer science, I have no idea. Programmer salaries have gone absolutely haywire over the past few years that a really brilliant friend of mine from UG (I assume Cornell ranks near the top for computer science, but I'm not certain) said he made less starting out at one of the brand name internet companies than they pay graduates of top bootcamps now.

You're right. Fresh IB analysts are $150k-$160k at bulge brackets. They can approach $200k as second to third year analysts.

At MBB you're looking at $115k-$120k straight out of undergrad (plus a sweet 401k match).

I was thinking about the two-year TFA commitment and just kind of threw out a number.

Really? Median total compensation for a McKinsey analyst looks to be $90k on Glassdoor.

That's probably outdated or not factoring in the total comp package.

Base is $80k, but bonus is $20k, signing is $5k, relocation is $5k-$10k, 401k can be another $10k-$15k.

[Hikikomorist]

TBH, I thought they were both lower, but I haven't looked at it in awhile so I'm surprised that it is as high as you said it was. Granted, the economy is also just wildly different than when I graduated. I thought it was more like $115k for IB (granted, salary figures could probably be skewed by "real" IBD jobs versus support roles that graduates take) plus some bonus maybe and MBB was closer to $95k.

(note: I used quotes because I generally hate these kinds of discussions of "prestige" and "outcomes" unless someone is obnoxious and I want to get under their skin. It's generally super easy to get under someone's skin that only cares about prestige.)

@Hikko, I'm surprised they get paid that much, but I do know a lot of smart people that went to newspapers. Granted, I don't think many of these people ever entertained the idea of going IB/MBB, as it isn't the 90s where an English major can land an investment banking job with a high enough GPA and undergraduate pedigree.

MBB is still on the table, though, right?

[34iplaw]

Just saw your CS comment: Cornell has a pretty good CS program, and I've seen some of the bonkers numbers being thrown around at FB/GOOG/MSFT/AMZN for coders. It depends on school, internships, github page, and interviewing, but I've seen some packages starting out well over $200k for the first year.

For example: $130k base, $100k signing bonus, $200k stock vesting over 3.5 years, ~10% bonus.

That's a 22 year old CS grad making $280k his first year and then maybe $190k the next year (depending on raises).

Jesus. How large a contingent are we talking about who are receiving those offers?

I think that is probably relatively small amount with probably some really specific programming skills. That said, it doesn't really shock me. I mean Hackreactor SF has a 98% hire rate at an average salary of $104k.

http://www.hackreactor.com/outcomes-san-francisco

My main concern with programming is the dumb money in SV dries up or wisens up and the huge pressure to outsource those kinds of starting salaries. Then again, I kind of get why people don't outsource programming all the time (having just done this myself.)

[wiz]

Just saw your CS comment: Cornell has a pretty good CS program, and I've seen some of the bonkers numbers being thrown around at FB/GOOG/MSFT/AMZN for coders. It depends on school, internships, github page, and interviewing, but I've seen some packages starting out well over $200k for the first year.

For example: $130k base, $100k signing bonus, $200k stock vesting over 3.5 years, ~10% bonus.

That's a 22 year old CS grad making $280k his first year and then maybe $190k the next year (depending on raises).

Jesus. How large a contingent are we talking about who are receiving those offers?

That would be someone FB/GOOG/MSFT really wanted—internship at the company and competing offers. It's a small contingent, but it does happen. Some special snowflakes do even better.

I would say the average package at the top tech companies looks more like $110k base, $20k signing bonus, $60k stock, 10% end of year bonus.

Still comfortably $130k+ after including stock and bonus.

CS bros who get gigs at those companies have it pretty good. I've also seen some pretty eye-popping numbers from Uber and Snapchat pre IPO.

[34iplaw]

TBH, I thought they were both lower, but I haven't looked at it in awhile so I'm surprised that it is as high as you said it was. Granted, the economy is also just wildly different than when I graduated. I thought it was more like $115k for IB (granted, salary figures could probably be skewed by "real" IBD jobs versus support roles that graduates take) plus some bonus maybe and MBB was closer to $95k.

(note: I used quotes because I generally hate these kinds of discussions of "prestige" and "outcomes" unless someone is obnoxious and I want to get under their skin. It's generally super easy to get under someone's skin that only cares about prestige.)

@Hikko, I'm surprised they get paid that much, but I do know a lot of smart people that went to newspapers. Granted, I don't think many of these people ever entertained the idea of going IB/MBB, as it isn't the 90s where an English major can land an investment banking job with a high enough GPA and undergraduate pedigree.

MBB is still on the table, though, right?

Haha - zero idea. Possibly. Hell, they may still have a shot at IB. It's just definitely not the same as it was in the 90s regarding banking recruiting. MBBs seem to be slightly more open than IBs, but I haven't looked at this in some time.

I will say the best undergraduate outcome I saw was a MBB consultant for luxury hotels. Instead of traveling to podunk whatever, constantly traveling to insane places.

[wiz]

Just saw your CS comment: Cornell has a pretty good CS program, and I've seen some of the bonkers numbers being thrown around at FB/GOOG/MSFT/AMZN for coders. It depends on school, internships, github page, and interviewing, but I've seen some packages starting out well over $200k for the first year.

For example: $130k base, $100k signing bonus, $200k stock vesting over 3.5 years, ~10% bonus.

That's a 22 year old CS grad making $280k his first year and then maybe $190k the next year (depending on raises).

Jesus. How large a contingent are we talking about who are receiving those offers?

I think that is probably relatively small amount with probably some really specific programming skills. That said, it doesn't really shock me. I mean Hackreactor SF has a 98% hire rate at an average salary of $104k.

http://www.hackreactor.com/outcomes-san-francisco

My main concern with programming is the dumb money in SV dries up or wisens up and the huge pressure to outsource those kinds of starting salaries. Then again, I kind of get why people don't outsource programming all the time (having just done this myself.)

Yeah, it really depends. I still think there's a lot of opportunity out there for CS people with in demand skillsets (e.g., machine learning).

[Hikikomorist]

Just saw your CS comment: Cornell has a pretty good CS program, and I've seen some of the bonkers numbers being thrown around at FB/GOOG/MSFT/AMZN for coders. It depends on school, internships, github page, and interviewing, but I've seen some packages starting out well over $200k for the first year.

For example: $130k base, $100k signing bonus, $200k stock vesting over 3.5 years, ~10% bonus.

That's a 22 year old CS grad making $280k his first year and then maybe $190k the next year (depending on raises).

Jesus. How large a contingent are we talking about who are receiving those offers?

That would be someone FB/GOOG/MSFT really wanted—internship at the company and competing offers. It's a small contingent, but it does happen. Some special snowflakes do even better.

I would say the average package at the top tech companies looks more like $110k base, $20k signing bonus, $60k stock, 10% end of year bonus.

Still comfortably $130k+ after including stock and bonus.

CS bros who get gigs at those companies have it pretty good. I've also seen some pretty eye-popping numbers from Uber and Snapchat pre IPO.

I really screwed up in UG.

[34iplaw]

Just saw your CS comment: Cornell has a pretty good CS program, and I've seen some of the bonkers numbers being thrown around at FB/GOOG/MSFT/AMZN for coders. It depends on school, internships, github page, and interviewing, but I've seen some packages starting out well over $200k for the first year.

For example: $130k base, $100k signing bonus, $200k stock vesting over 3.5 years, ~10% bonus.

That's a 22 year old CS grad making $280k his first year and then maybe $190k the next year (depending on raises).

Jesus. How large a contingent are we talking about who are receiving those offers?

I think that is probably relatively small amount with probably some really specific programming skills. That said, it doesn't really shock me. I mean Hackreactor SF has a 98% hire rate at an average salary of $104k.

http://www.hackreactor.com/outcomes-san-francisco

My main concern with programming is the dumb money in SV dries up or wisens up and the huge pressure to outsource those kinds of starting salaries. Then again, I kind of get why people don't outsource programming all the time (having just done this myself.)

Yeah, it really depends. I still think there's a lot of opportunity out there for CS people with in demand skillsets (e.g., machine learning).

Yeah - will need to hustle still. That said, many of my friends at places like FB/Google have said that learning to program and having any semblance of people and management skills will get you into pretty sweet jobs pretty quickly. A lot of the programmers coming in, supposedly, can be difficult people and challenging to retain since they are in such high demand and, unlike many other industries, changing jobs fairly often isn't nearly as frowned upon.

I've actually sort of toyed around with the idea of doing a boot camp, trying to get a job with some type of partnership with a Stanford or Columbia, and pursuing a MS while working or something.

[Hikikomorist]

Just saw your CS comment: Cornell has a pretty good CS program, and I've seen some of the bonkers numbers being thrown around at FB/GOOG/MSFT/AMZN for coders. It depends on school, internships, github page, and interviewing, but I've seen some packages starting out well over $200k for the first year.

For example: $130k base, $100k signing bonus, $200k stock vesting over 3.5 years, ~10% bonus.

That's a 22 year old CS grad making $280k his first year and then maybe $190k the next year (depending on raises).

Jesus. How large a contingent are we talking about who are receiving those offers?

I think that is probably relatively small amount with probably some really specific programming skills. That said, it doesn't really shock me. I mean Hackreactor SF has a 98% hire rate at an average salary of $104k.

http://www.hackreactor.com/outcomes-san-francisco

My main concern with programming is the dumb money in SV dries up or wisens up and the huge pressure to outsource those kinds of starting salaries. Then again, I kind of get why people don't outsource programming all the time (having just done this myself.)

Yeah, it really depends. I still think there's a lot of opportunity out there for CS people with in demand skillsets (e.g., machine learning).

Yeah - will need to hustle still. That said, many of my friends at places like FB/Google have said that learning to program and having any semblance of people and management skills will get you into pretty sweet jobs pretty quickly. A lot of the programmers coming in, supposedly, can be difficult people and challenging to retain since they are in such high demand and, unlike many other industries, changing jobs fairly often isn't nearly as frowned upon.

I've actually sort of toyed around with the idea of doing a boot camp, trying to get a job with some type of partnership with a Stanford or Columbia, and pursuing a MS while working or something.

Yeah, it's really tempting, but I doubt those $200k packages are going to bootcamp graduates.

[Hikikomorist]

Who knows, I might also be too dumb to code well.

[wiz]

Just saw your CS comment: Cornell has a pretty good CS program, and I've seen some of the bonkers numbers being thrown around at FB/GOOG/MSFT/AMZN for coders. It depends on school, internships, github page, and interviewing, but I've seen some packages starting out well over $200k for the first year.

For example: $130k base, $100k signing bonus, $200k stock vesting over 3.5 years, ~10% bonus.

That's a 22 year old CS grad making $280k his first year and then maybe $190k the next year (depending on raises).

Jesus. How large a contingent are we talking about who are receiving those offers?

That would be someone FB/GOOG/MSFT really wanted—internship at the company and competing offers. It's a small contingent, but it does happen. Some special snowflakes do even better.

I would say the average package at the top tech companies looks more like $110k base, $20k signing bonus, $60k stock, 10% end of year bonus.

Still comfortably $130k+ after including stock and bonus.

CS bros who get gigs at those companies have it pretty good. I've also seen some pretty eye-popping numbers from Uber and Snapchat pre IPO.

I really screwed up in UG.

I think most of us did, brother. Otherwise we wouldn't be on a law school messageboard.

We can only work with the best information we have available at the time, though, and what you do from here on out is on you.

[34iplaw]

Yeah, it's really tempting, but I doubt those $200k packages are going to bootcamp graduates.

Oh - they aren't, but the average bootcamp grad from Hackreactor (granted, not an average bootcamp) are starting at $105k in SF. A not insignificant portion of them are making more as well. I think that's why you would aim to try to get a role with some kind of support of getting a MS elsewhere so you can help put yourself on even footing with UG comp sci people.


Re: too dumb to code - probably not. You probably could code relatively easily. Apparently, there is a fair amount of overlap to those who have the type of mind that works well on the LSAT. At a very basic level, computer science is almost like building your own logic games, but they actually serve a function. Then again, my programming experience is limited to debugging my website, and Excel programs/formulas that would make your eyes bleed.

[wiz]

TBH, I thought they were both lower, but I haven't looked at it in awhile so I'm surprised that it is as high as you said it was. Granted, the economy is also just wildly different than when I graduated. I thought it was more like $115k for IB (granted, salary figures could probably be skewed by "real" IBD jobs versus support roles that graduates take) plus some bonus maybe and MBB was closer to $95k.

(note: I used quotes because I generally hate these kinds of discussions of "prestige" and "outcomes" unless someone is obnoxious and I want to get under their skin. It's generally super easy to get under someone's skin that only cares about prestige.)

@Hikko, I'm surprised they get paid that much, but I do know a lot of smart people that went to newspapers. Granted, I don't think many of these people ever entertained the idea of going IB/MBB, as it isn't the 90s where an English major can land an investment banking job with a high enough GPA and undergraduate pedigree.

Tbf, those IBD comp packages could come crashing back down if/when there's another recession since they're basically structured as 60/40 or 50/50 base/bonus.

But yeah, obviously talking front office analysts here and not middle office or back office roles.

[Pomeranian]

I would say the average package at the top tech companies looks more like $110k base, $20k signing bonus, $60k stock, 10% end of year bonus.

Still comfortably $130k+ after including stock and bonus.

CS bros who get gigs at those companies have it pretty good. I've also seen some pretty eye-popping numbers from Uber and Snapchat pre IPO.

And they have really nice perks (free gourmet cafeteria on premises, sleeping pods, etc) and chill laid back working environment. :*(

[Hikikomorist]

I could have been retired by now.

[Hikikomorist]

I would say the average package at the top tech companies looks more like $110k base, $20k signing bonus, $60k stock, 10% end of year bonus.

Still comfortably $130k+ after including stock and bonus.

CS bros who get gigs at those companies have it pretty good. I've also seen some pretty eye-popping numbers from Uber and Snapchat pre IPO.

And they have really nice perks (free gourmet cafeteria on premises, sleeping pods, etc) and chill laid back working environment. :*(

Read an article about someone going homeless and living there. JFC. $250k with no living expenses.

[wiz]

I would say the average package at the top tech companies looks more like $110k base, $20k signing bonus, $60k stock, 10% end of year bonus.

Still comfortably $130k+ after including stock and bonus.

CS bros who get gigs at those companies have it pretty good. I've also seen some pretty eye-popping numbers from Uber and Snapchat pre IPO.

And they have really nice perks (free gourmet food cafeteria on premises, sleeping pods, etc) and laid back working environment. :*(

Yup, seriously incredible life if you can land it.

Their comp to hours ratio is insanely good, especially compared to demanding BB/consulting/biglaw.

[kingpin101]

Yeah it's honestly the environment that I really am jelly of. No "if you don't bill 2400 hours you get the boot", t-shirt and jeans everyday, no partners that act like wrathful demigods, etc. I heard from some of my colleagues (I was a CS major in undergrad, yeah fuck me right?) that it's basically college 2.0.

[rpupkin]

I would say the average package at the top tech companies looks more like $110k base, $20k signing bonus, $60k stock, 10% end of year bonus.

Still comfortably $130k+ after including stock and bonus.

CS bros who get gigs at those companies have it pretty good. I've also seen some pretty eye-popping numbers from Uber and Snapchat pre IPO.

And they have really nice perks (free gourmet food cafeteria on premises, sleeping pods, etc) and laid back working environment. :*(

Yup, seriously incredible life if you can land it.

Their comp to hours ratio is insanely good, especially compared to demanding BB/consulting/biglaw.

I don't know where the flame started that SV techies have a chill, laid-back work life. There's a reason that the companies provide food and sleeping pods—they want their employees to literally live at work. My friends at the big tech companies work big law hours.

[A. Nony Mouse]

But rpupkin, the PRESTIGE.

[wiz]

I would say the average package at the top tech companies looks more like $110k base, $20k signing bonus, $60k stock, 10% end of year bonus.

Still comfortably $130k+ after including stock and bonus.

CS bros who get gigs at those companies have it pretty good. I've also seen some pretty eye-popping numbers from Uber and Snapchat pre IPO.

And they have really nice perks (free gourmet food cafeteria on premises, sleeping pods, etc) and laid back working environment. :*(

Yup, seriously incredible life if you can land it.

Their comp to hours ratio is insanely good, especially compared to demanding BB/consulting/biglaw.

I don't know where the flame started that SV techies have a chill, laid-back work life. There's a reason that the companies provide food and sleeping pods—they want their employees to literally live at work. My friends at the big tech companies work big law hours.

Might be the case for startups and some of the more grueling groups in Google/Amazon, but definitely not true across the board. There are plenty of CS jobs in CA and Seattle that pay well and don't require biglaw hours.

[dbalkaran]

A quick linkedin search on past employer McKinsey with school Bentley turned up 32 people. Same search for Columbia turned up about 200,000.

Bain turns up a whopping 78 for Bentley. Really crushing it.

Sorry for edits.

Columbia has significantly more alumni than Bentley on LinkedIn so yeah no shit. And again I didn't imply at any point that Bentley is better than an Ivy League, but to say Bentley is a bad school is just wrong. They do place well into the top banks, consulting and accounting firms especially considering the school was established in 1917 and you're comparing it to Columbia which has been around since the 1700s. I could really care less what you think however to get back to my original point before this pointless discussion was started undergrad prestige is stupid because aside form the Ivies there are very few schools that are considered top schools for multiple things. In general a 3.7-4.0 GPA regardless of where you went to undergrad is going to open doors for you.

I am so sorry I offended you. Truly I cannot say that enough. I know how deeply shameful it must be for you and your family that you went to Bentley, so I will drop the issue. Again, my condolences that you went to Bentley.

You didn't offend me. That would imply I care what you think.

Never change. You might be a good candidate for SullCrom down the line if you go to a better law school than Bentley is an undergrad school.

Dad is that you?

[Tiago Splitter]

I would say the average package at the top tech companies looks more like $110k base, $20k signing bonus, $60k stock, 10% end of year bonus.

Still comfortably $130k+ after including stock and bonus.

CS bros who get gigs at those companies have it pretty good. I've also seen some pretty eye-popping numbers from Uber and Snapchat pre IPO.

And they have really nice perks (free gourmet food cafeteria on premises, sleeping pods, etc) and laid back working environment. :*(

Yup, seriously incredible life if you can land it.

Their comp to hours ratio is insanely good, especially compared to demanding BB/consulting/biglaw.

I don't know where the flame started that SV techies have a chill, laid-back work life. There's a reason that the companies provide food and sleeping pods—they want their employees to literally live at work. My friends at the big tech companies work big law hours.

Might be the case for startups and some of the more grueling groups in Google/Amazon, but definitely not true across the board. There are plenty of CS jobs in CA and Seattle that pay well and don't require biglaw hours.

Sure but those aren't the ones with the gourmet restaurants on site and the sleeping pods.

I mean seriously lol at sleeping pods as a perk. If you aren't a firefighter or er doc working the overnight shift run don't walk from places that have sleeping areas on site.