If Cornell applications are up 44% this year... Forum

[legalnoeagle]

Then you'd have to expect other T14 schools are seeing big jumps, too. I'd imagine the somewhat arbitrary nature of decisions (and certain ED extensions) so far has to do with the fact that unless you're an auto-admit, it's probably in schools' best interest to wait until they have an idea of the complete applicant pool.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/educa ... d.html?hpw

Splitters, URMs/non-trad, borderline candidates, etc: don't hold your breath for decisions any time soon.

[existenz]

I got an email from Michigan State saying that apps were up 25% this year. Are there really 25% more applicants, or does the increase in applications also have to do with more people applying to a broader number of schools?

[ajk]

I got an email from Michigan State saying that apps were up 25% this year. Are there really 25% more applicants, or does the increase in applications also have to do with more people applying to a broader number of schools?

I'd say both. I remember from when i was in undergrad how there was a lot of talk about how many more applicants schools were receiving (My school had a huge jump in each of the 3 years after my freshman year). I think conventional wisdom is beginning to dictate that degrees (BA, MA, JD, MD, etc) are vital and that applying to many schools will only help your chances. American is currently playing "catch up" in the education arena with Europe/Asia and apps to grad schools are going to continue to climb.

[jrobby6]

Forget Cornell, check out IU-B...

[jerzgrl630]

I got an email from Michigan State saying that apps were up 25% this year. Are there really 25% more applicants, or does the increase in applications also have to do with more people applying to a broader number of schools?

I always wonder about this. An increase in applications does not necessarily mean an increase in overall unique applicants. There must be more people applying to law school this year, but with this in mind, I'm sure a lot of people would apply to a broader number of schools. No one knows how this cycle will end, and for that reason people want to open up their options. People applying now also have a lot more fear of debt than ever before. I have to imagine a lot more applicants are interested in scholarship opportunities this year. The mentality used to be go to the best school you got into, no matter what the price. Now it's shifted a bit and there seem to be a lot of people who are eager to hear about scholarship $$. I would tend to think that those who want the best deal will be shopping around at a lot of different schools.

Plus, schools are constantly offering fee waivers. This creates a surge in applications to one school, but doesn't attract more overall LS applicants.

[Sauer Grapes]

....

[D. H2Oman]

Most LSN graphs look like they're developing very similar to last year.

[rundoxierun]

hopefully people are just applying earlier..

[lawyering]

hopefully people are just applying earlier..

yeah, that's what i was hoping too. people might just be doing more to get any edge possible over the next guy...thus applying earlier in the cycle?

[D. H2Oman]

hopefully people are just applying earlier..

yeah, that's what i was hoping too. people might just be doing more to get any edge possible over the next guy...thus applying earlier in the cycle?

Doubtful though. Why would that be the case this year as opposed to other years?

[rundoxierun]

hopefully people are just applying earlier..

yeah, that's what i was hoping too. people might just be doing more to get any edge possible over the next guy...thus applying earlier in the cycle?

Doubtful though. Why would that be the case this year as opposed to other years?

people have more time on their hands/less options to consider before deciding to apply. I think its surely impossible that that a large portion of those 44% extra people applying to cornell are qualified but just usually those types dont apply. Surely the jump in qualified T14 applicants cant be that high.

[09042014]

Most LSN graphs look like they're developing very similar to last year.

I think the waitlists are going to look like the Bataan Death March this year.

[09042014]

hopefully people are just applying earlier..

yeah, that's what i was hoping too. people might just be doing more to get any edge possible over the next guy...thus applying earlier in the cycle?

Doubtful though. Why would that be the case this year as opposed to other years?

people have more time on their hands/less options to consider before deciding to apply. I think its surely impossible that that a large portion of those 44% extra people applying to cornell are qualified but just usually those types dont apply. Surely the jump in qualified T14 applicants cant be that high.

What the qualifications for Cornell, the ability to get a 170 and having a 3.6 GPA? I think its very possible a large percent of them are qualified. Class of '09 got screwed in recruiting and I'm guessing a lot of them are going to grad school instead. Law school happens to be the easiest to get into without any long term focus.

[Cupidity]

I don't think it means other t14's are gonna be up. Cornell is like T14 saftey land for most people with a 168+. Applicants who before might have just applied to t10+ are now submitting to schools like georgetown and cornell.

[rundoxierun]

TLS really screws with our minds.. it is nearly impossible for their to be another even 22% new applicants out there capable of getting 170s with 3.6 GPAs that just suddenly decided to apply to cornell law school. I think the vast majority of those 44% are either people who wouldve applied to Cornell anyway but are now doing it earlier or those of people who would usually only apply to t10. Im sure there are a few new qualified applicants but i doubt its such a huge amount.

[nycparalegal]

This is my own $.02.

All year we have been told that the application cycle was going to be competitive, MORE applicants going to take the test, MORE qualified applicants, MORE people out of work looking to law school as a safe place to wait out this great recession.

Now, I and a few other people I know who are applying this year have decided to cast a very wide net.

And, I think that's what your seeing.

The 44% increase is probably a combination of jittery t-10 applicants, and jittery t-14 applicants applying early and casting a very wide net.

The schools themselves are not really sure about this cycle either, and hence all of the WL.

[Pearalegal]

I don't think it means other t14's are gonna be up. Cornell is like T14 saftey land for most people with a 168+. Applicants who before might have just applied to t10+ are now submitting to schools like georgetown and cornell.

*snarl*

Not when they defer all of us 168ers.

[ze2151]

it's been mentioned, but i'll echo this sentiment. i believe the spike in apps has to do with the ease of applying to 10-15-20 schools thru the LSDAS. toss in fee waivers and "ITE" and you have prospectives casting a very wide net. i only applied to a handful of schools, but i only applied to 1 ug and 2 grad schools. that's my usual m.o. in at least 3 instances, i put the app in just because i could stand to spend the 12 bucks.

not having applied to law school before, i don't know if it has always been this easy/waivers have always been this easy to obtain. but i think people's anxiety over the economy has led them to apply basically everywhere. i believe there are more people applying to l.s., but the spike is much less dramatic than the raw data indicate.

[vanwinkle]

TLS really screws with our minds.. it is nearly impossible for their to be another even 22% new applicants out there capable of getting 170s with 3.6 GPAs that just suddenly decided to apply to cornell law school. I think the vast majority of those 44% are either people who wouldve applied to Cornell anyway but are now doing it earlier or those of people who would usually only apply to t10. Im sure there are a few new qualified applicants but i doubt its such a huge amount.

Not true. 20% more LSAT takers this year means potentially 20% more 170+ scores earned this year than previous years. That same article mentions the 20% jump in LSAT takers, so it's not a figure I'm pulling out of my ass, it's real. Not only that, but logically the ones who are going to apply that wouldn't have before are more likely to be the ones that got high scores and therefore have good odds of admission to a "top" school.

There could realistically be 20% more people than previous years out there with "T14 numbers". This means that people who would've gotten into T14 last year could be rejected this year. There aren't just that many more people applying, there are potentially that many more people applying who are smart enough for top law schools but in a different economy would've pursued something else.

[rundoxierun]

TLS really screws with our minds.. it is nearly impossible for their to be another even 22% new applicants out there capable of getting 170s with 3.6 GPAs that just suddenly decided to apply to cornell law school. I think the vast majority of those 44% are either people who wouldve applied to Cornell anyway but are now doing it earlier or those of people who would usually only apply to t10. Im sure there are a few new qualified applicants but i doubt its such a huge amount.

Not true. 20% more LSAT takers this year means potentially 20% more 170+ scores earned this year than previous years. That same article mentions the 20% jump in LSAT takers, so it's not a figure I'm pulling out of my ass, it's real. Not only that, but logically the ones who are going to apply that wouldn't have before are more likely to be the ones that got high scores and therefore have good odds of admission to a "top" school.

There could realistically be 20% more people than previous years out there with "T14 numbers". This means that people who would've gotten into T14 last year could be rejected this year. There aren't just that many more people applying, there are potentially that many more people applying who are smart enough for top law schools but in a different economy would've pursued something else.

Only if the LSAT scores of those 20% are normally distributed. But if a good portion of the 20% new LSAT test takers are older applicants this is probably not true. Older applicants have lower median gpas as well as lower median lsat scores. This is why Im not sure the 20% increased test takers implies 20% more 170/3.6 applicants.

[badwithpseudonyms]

There's some much logic fail in this thread I don't know where to start.

[vanwinkle]

Only if the LSAT scores of those 20% are normally distributed.

This is true, and why I said "potentially". However, it's still strong enough to contradict your statement that it's "nearly impossible" for the increase in applicants to Cornell to be people qualified to attend there. In at least one realistic scenario it's very possible.

But if a good portion of the 20% new LSAT test takers are older applicants this is probably not true. Older applicants have lower median gpas as well as lower median lsat scores. This is why Im not sure the 20% increased test takers implies 20% more 170/3.6 applicants.

This makes no sense to me at all. We're talking about a new economy, a paradigm shift from previous behavior. People who had close to 4.0 GPAs who were smart and successful and would've found solid work without an advanced degree before may be unemployed now. Layoffs do not take GPAs into consideration, and there is a glut of newly unemployed people out there, some of whom are going to be rather brilliant people.

Also, what do you consider an "older" applicant? I had 6 years WE before going to law school, I'm 29 now as a 1L, and I got a 170 the way everyone else did--studying and preparing for the test. There are "older" applicants who do the same work that "younger" applicants do.

[b.j.]

I got an email from Michigan State saying that apps were up 25% this year. Are there really 25% more applicants, or does the increase in applications also have to do with more people applying to a broader number of schools?

I always wonder about this. An increase in applications does not necessarily mean an increase in overall unique applicants. There must be more people applying to law school this year, but with this in mind, I'm sure a lot of people would apply to a broader number of schools. No one knows how this cycle will end, and for that reason people want to open up their options. People applying now also have a lot more fear of debt than ever before. I have to imagine a lot more applicants are interested in scholarship opportunities this year. The mentality used to be go to the best school you got into, no matter what the price. Now it's shifted a bit and there seem to be a lot of people who are eager to hear about scholarship $$. I would tend to think that those who want the best deal will be shopping around at a lot of different schools.

Plus, schools are constantly offering fee waivers. This creates a surge in applications to one school, but doesn't attract more overall LS applicants.

All of that, plus the fact that an increase in applicants doesn't necessarily mean an increase in quality of applicants.

[rundoxierun]

Only if the LSAT scores of those 20% are normally distributed.

This is true, and why I said "potentially". However, it's still strong enough to contradict your statement that it's "nearly impossible" for the increase in applicants to Cornell to be people qualified to attend there. In at least one realistic scenario it's very possible.

But if a good portion of the 20% new LSAT test takers are older applicants this is probably not true. Older applicants have lower median gpas as well as lower median lsat scores. This is why Im not sure the 20% increased test takers implies 20% more 170/3.6 applicants.

This makes no sense to me at all. We're talking about a new economy, a paradigm shift from previous behavior. People who had close to 4.0 GPAs who were smart and successful and would've found solid work without an advanced degree before may be unemployed now. Layoffs do not take GPAs into consideration, and there is a glut of newly unemployed people out there, some of whom are going to be rather brilliant people.

Also, what do you consider an "older" applicant? I had 6 years WE before going to law school, I'm 29 now as a 1L, and I got a 170 the way everyone else did--studying and preparing for the test. There are "older" applicants who do the same work that "younger" applicants do.

I dont know how many of these brilliant people are being affected by the recession but I have a hard time believing it is enough to fuel a sustained increase in t14 quality applicants of 20%+.. these people also have the options of b-school, grad school, etc. Also, while college grads are being affected by the recession, its not nearly the same severity as with non-college grads. Im not going by what I consider "older" applicants, I am going by what LSAC published in their data. I believe they use 26 and older as their metric for older applicants. LSAC data also confirms that older people have lower mean gpa/lsat... In addition there is this tidbit:

For 2001 there were 4.7 applications per applicant, but by 2008 the number had increased
to 6.5. While this may not seem like a large change, consider the following example:
If there were 100,000 applicants in each of those seven years, the number of applications would
have increased by 180,000 from 2001 to 2008, an increase of more than 900 applications per
school on average, with no increase in the total number of applicants nationwide!

Finally, dont take offense by my comments about older applicants. Yes, you got a 170 but that doesnt change the general trend of lower lsat scores for older applicants. Im a black kid with a 177 but that doesnt mean all black kids are suddenly getting 177s.

[vanwinkle]

Finally, dont take offense by my comments about older applicants. Yes, you got a 170 but that doesnt change the general trend of lower lsat scores for older applicants. Im a black kid with a 177 but that doesnt mean all black kids are suddenly getting 177s.

I know this is off-topic, but damn, dude, enjoy Harvard...