Top Law Schools

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

This spreadsheet lists key terms and conditions at the various LRAP programs across the t-14. If folks see mistakes or other areas of information they think should be included, please let me know.

As always, be sure to be in touch with any school you have LRAP questions about directly. There could be important provisions that are not published.

Flip you the real MVP

Awesome spreadsheet, thank you so much for doing this. Two quick things about Columbia's LRAP (it's the one I've been doing the most research on):

1) I don't believe that their program makes private loans eligible. As per their LRAP PDF:

"Personal loans from banks or from family members, and credit card and consumer debt
are not covered under the Program, even when they are used to finance higher education."

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong sort of private loan or something, though? Reason I say that is because a) I'm still new to this shit and b) I believe I heard at an info session something to the effect of you can use private loans, but only for their non-IBR/PSLF program.

2) I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "Negative amortization protection," but to my knowledge Columbia has an option wherein you are technically on IBR/PSLF, yet your principal is still being paid down. I'm not 100% sure that's how it works though, and I can cite the section of the PDF where I believe it says that if you want.

Flip you son of a bitch, I see you gunning for TLSmod.

Don't think I'm not paying attention.

Keep in mind that Michigan's cap is actually closer to 50k where you don't make any payments, and 88k where Michigan stops offering any assistance.

Same deal for Berkeley - their "you don't pay anything" cap is 65k, but their "we won't pay anything" cap is 100k.

The private loan thing is a remnant from the pre-grad PLUS era where someone might have had a CitiAssist loan or something like that. It's not really relevant to anyone nowadays.

Negative amortization protection means the school is giving you some kind of additional support to offset the effect of you not paying all of your owed monthly interest on your loan. What you're talking about is what I am referring to with Columbia where you can choose your amortization. You can choose a straight am, but their income requirements/support are different.

Iam3hunna wrote:Flip you son of a bitch, I see you gunning for TLSmod.

Don't think I'm not paying attention.

Admitting to this will get me banned. Not saying you're wrong, though. lol

fliptrip wrote:The private loan thing is a remnant from the pre-grad PLUS era where someone might have had a CitiAssist loan or something like that. It's not really relevant to anyone nowadays.

Negative amortization protection means the school is giving you some kind of additional support to offset the effect of you not paying all of your owed monthly interest on your loan. What you're talking about is what I am referring to with Columbia where you can choose your amortization. You can choose a straight am, but their income requirements/support are different.

Interesting - so private loans are for certain eligible, even if you are on IBR/PSLF?

Also, yeah, I think we are on the same page then? I will cite the paragraph just to make sure though:

"In the second option, the LRAP benefits will be calculated using the traditional $50,000
income threshold (see “Calculating Annual Awards”). LRAP benefits are not capped at the
amount of IBR provided the participant makes additional loan payments according to the
traditional LRAP schedule. Making payments in excess of IBR reduces the principal amount of
the federal loans. At any time, the participant may choose not to make additional payments
according to the traditional LRAP schedule; in that case, LRAP benefits will be capped at IBR.
The LRAP benefits will continue to be calculated using the traditional LRAP formula (see
“Calculating Annual Awards”), but do not exceed IBR (the amount the participant actually must
pay)."

By 'second option', they mean second option of combining their traditional LRAP with IBR/PSLF. The 'first option' is the 100k cap program. This 'second option' is different from just being on the regular 50k cap program. It kind of sounds like negative amortization protection to me, in that it seems like they still pay down your principal despite you being on IBR/PSLF; which is why I wanted to clarify if it should fit under that section.

^^you're right. I added something to that effect for Columbia.

And, since I clearly have nothing better to do, I found it interesting to make up a scenario and see what you'd be paying at the various schools in the LRAPs:

If you make $80,000, are single, and have no dependents, owing $150,000, here's what you're paying monthly out of pocket:

Positive Amortization Programs:
Yale: $563
Harvard: $1,033
Stanford: $813
Columbia: $864

Negative Amortization Programs:
Chicago: $0
NYU: $0
Penn: $0
UVA: $777 (UVA caps out at $75k)
Berkeley: $438
Michigan: $282
Duke: $777 (Duke caps out at $75k)
Northwestern: $777 (but NU will chip in $73 extra/month to help you pay the unpaid interest on the loan)
Cornell: $0
GULC: Unclear, as Georgetown doesn't make it clear how it handles income above $75k.

Thanks for making this thread! I am a newb to student loans (very lucky to be debt free post undergrad). I am choosing between a top 50 school for free or Penn, where I'm guessing I won't end up with much aid. I am pretty committed to public interest, so imagine I'll be taking advantage of PSLF and loan repayment assistance if I go the Penn route.

Can anyone explain the post above - what does negative amortization mean exactly? And how did you come up with the numbers listed there, particularly for Penn since that's the most relevant to my situation. Thanks!

For Harvard and Yale, the extra 30k is available for undergrad debt, right? I think the way you referred to that might be a bit confusing.

This is great! As a married student, I have to say it's very frustrating to see how different the programs are for spousal income inclusion. Going to a school where spousal income isn't taken into consideration would be a game changer.

norton123 wrote:Thanks for making this thread! I am a newb to student loans (very lucky to be debt free post undergrad). I am choosing between a top 50 school for free or Penn, where I'm guessing I won't end up with much aid. I am pretty committed to public interest, so imagine I'll be taking advantage of PSLF and loan repayment assistance if I go the Penn route.

Can anyone explain the post above - what does negative amortization mean exactly? And how did you come up with the numbers listed there, particularly for Penn since that's the most relevant to my situation. Thanks!

Negative amortization is when the interest on your loans raises faster than the amount of your monthly payments. In other words, your loan balance goes up over time. This is because the way IBR/PSLF works is that you are allowed to make extra small payments towards your loans, and then at the end of 120 monthly payments your balance goes from some huge amount to zero.

Conversely, HYS and Columbia's LRAPs do not entail negative amortization in that the schools actually make (potentially all of or part of, depending on your income) your full loan payments for you. You aren't utilizing PSLF or IBR, so you're just making the full loan payment amount. Your loans still won't be fully paid off until 10 years are up, just like the IBR/PSLF plans, but they will go down over time (i.e. after five years your loan balance will be halved).

Fliptrip got those numbers based on what each school designated as its 'cap' for their LRAP program. This is one aspect where schools can differ, even if they are both using IBR/PSLF. Schools are able to set a cap at which you won't have to make those super tiny payments. Fliptrip then used a hypothetical salary of 80k and calculated how much your out of pocket payment would be at each school.

Flip - I also had a quick question that might very well be a stupid one. When you say under the spousal support section, that "Spousal student loan payments are excluded from income," do you mean that they will not be subtracted from the spouse's calculated income? E.g. spouse makes 80k a year and owes 10k a year for student loans. Their income will not be reduced to 70k in light of this?

Flip, thanks so much for this! TLS has needed a comprehensive comparison of LRAPs for a long time. As always, students must contact their respective schools' financial aid offices for confirmation of important details, but this comparison will be very helpful to those trying to narrow down their choices.

I think you can improve the Harvard/LIPP section in a couple of ways:

1. Only private-sector jobs need to be law-related. Any FT job in government, academia, or nonprofits is eligible, law-related or not. Source: "LIPP is available for Harvard Law School JD Program graduates who work in any full-time job for a government, nonprofit [501(c)(3)] or academic organization (nonprofit only) in the USA, or in an overseas equivalent. Jobs in the for-profit sector can also qualify for LIPP, but must be law-related."

2. As Winter said, the 30k is for undergrad loans or loans taken out for another Harvard grad school. As I understand it, HLS will cover everything you take out for law school except loans in excess of the estimated COA and loans taken out to cover your expected contribution (if you take out loans to cover your parents' expected contribution, those qualify), plus up to 30k in undergrad / Harvard grad, plus up to 10k in bar loans.

3. In "contribution / support schedule", it should be <46k instead of >46k.

Woot! Flip is da man!

somethingelse55 wrote:Flip - I also had a quick question that might very well be a stupid one. When you say under the spousal support section, that "Spousal student loan payments are excluded from income," do you mean that they will not be subtracted from the spouse's calculated income? E.g. spouse makes 80k a year and owes 10k a year for student loans. Their income will not be reduced to 70k in light of this?

Exactly. For the schools that mention it it looks like any student loan payments your spouse makes are subtracted from their income for determination purposes.

Oh ok, I had it backwards then (I read it as spouses loan payments are excluded as in they will not be used for calculating income). Thank you for clarifying!

I'll add that for CLS, while undergraduate loans aren't paid by LRAP, they kind of are since you're AGI is adjusted based on your payment of undergraduate loans, so if you make 55k in a year, pay 5k to undergrad loans, you're AGI becomes 50k and you have to pay nothing. Same works for spouses with undergrad loans

Thanks for doing this. People are always taking about LRAPS being better or worse, but that issue is impossible to settle without taking into account so many factors about your future desired or likely employment options. This sheet makes it much easier to make that calculation for yourself.

NYU also extends one time LRAP eligible loans of up to $2,000 for a laptop purchase.

Berkeley's entry says that the program covers all loans eligible for IBR, but does that include undergrad/ other grad school debt? I'm expecting to finish school with more undergrad/grad debt than law debt, so that'd be a big difference for me =/

180kickflip wrote:Berkeley's entry says that the program covers all loans eligible for IBR, but does that include undergrad/ other grad school debt? I'm expecting to finish school with more undergrad/grad debt than law debt, so that'd be a big difference for me =/

The answer is yes, but Berkeley will not consider any borrowing that's beyond their 3 year COA in LRAP support. So, if you can roll everything together and end up under B's 3 year COA total, then you're good. Otherwise, you'll have to make up the gap.

180kickflip wrote:Berkeley's entry says that the program covers all loans eligible for IBR, but does that include undergrad/ other grad school debt? I'm expecting to finish school with more undergrad/grad debt than law debt, so that'd be a big difference for me =/

This is leads me to another point for anyone who might be considering Penn for the Wharton MBA. Penn's LRAP would allow you to roll the costs of that Wharton MBA (such as it is in a joint-degree) into the loan that you're LRAPing. That's a sweet deal.

As another note, because apparently I like to see my own words in lights...

Thanks to everyone for suggestions for revisions/corrections. Assume that I am making your correction on the sheet unless I specifically reply in the thread.