I believe that if you have always identified as such then it will be fine.LMP10 wrote:I have a question about what to put down on my applications. I am originally from a country in SA, but I was adopted into a PR family. I know that I'm Hispanic, but would I be able to put down PR as well? I've always identified with that, but since I'm not technically PR, would it be wrong to check the box?
Thanks for the help.
Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM?? Forum
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting
Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are sharing sensitive information about bar exam prep. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.
Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned."
Anonymous Posting
Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are sharing sensitive information about bar exam prep. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.
Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned."
-
- Posts: 301
- Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:05 pm
Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??
-
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:46 pm
Re: Cubans
I know, way late, but I've been busy Again, I've yet to see any college/law school application that asks those who check "Hispanic" which country of origin their ancestors come from; at the very least, I never saw such when applying to college and law school. For all intents and purposes, if you check "Hispanic," regardless of where your background is from, you're getting URM treatment.PoopNpants wrote:PRs and Mexicans get the URM boosts, other's aren't regarded as "URMs"bklynattorney wrote:Sure they are considered URM's in that they are Hispanic. No one is going to ask for your country of origin (or your family's) on the college application. All you're putting down is that you're Hispanic. Thus, you'll get the same bump in URM status as other Hispanics.silver11 wrote:They are considered Hispanic/Latino and don't qualify for URM status. You could write a really good diversity statement and show the school how you can bring diversity to their class, but as far as getting a boost, you wouldn't qualify.
I quoted this exactly from the URM section of TLS
Which groups are considered URMs?
American Indians/Alaskan Natives, African Americans/Blacks, Mexican Americans, and Puerto Ricans are typically considered URM’s. Please note that there is a difference between Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, and other types of Hispanics in the admissions process. Additionally, I would like to offer a small caveat to international students, who fall into a separate category of their own.
Last edited by bklynattorney on Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
-
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 2:34 pm
Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??
.
Last edited by LionSquall on Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
- cbbinnyc
- Posts: 375
- Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:49 am
Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??
You can certainly put down PR. Clearly you identify as PR. Also, regardless, nobody is going to go digging into your records or looking at birth certificates or anything like that.LionSquall wrote:Hey guys, I have a question.
I've been living my whole life, since I was one years old, in Puerto Rico. My first language is Spanish, I have grown up with the Puerto Rican culture, so I identify myself as Puerto Rican. BUT I wasn't born in Puerto Rico, nor was any of my parents. I was born in NY and raised in PR, my mother was also born in NY and raised in PR, but my grandparents (from mother's side) were both born and raised in PR.
So, do I qualify as URM in terms of applying to Law School? I personally do identify myself as Puerto Rican, obviously, since I've been in PR my whole life, but not sure if I qualify since I wasn't born here nor my parents either. Not sure if being raised in PR (Thus considering myself Puerto Rican), as well as my grandparents being both born and raised in PR, is enough for being considered URM, or do I or my parents need to be born in PR to qualify as such. Also, do they ask for evidence that you're an URM? and is providing evidence that I've lived in PR my whole life enough evidence? or do I need to provide a birth certificate? in which case me nor my parents will show that we're born in PR and thus perhaps not qualifying as URM.
As you can see, I'm more concern in terms of evidence and confused on whether I qualify as URM based on where I was born vs raised. So any help in that regard would help.
Thanks in advance!
Whether this makes you a URM is a different question. I think I read somewhere that PR's don't get a boost but I have no idea if that's true.
ETA: If none of your family was born in Puerto Rico and you and your family were actually Danish but just lived in Puerto Rico for the nice weather, that might be a different story. But your grandparents were born in Puerto Rico, which would make you PR even if neither you nor your parents lived in (or even visited) PR.
-
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Sat May 28, 2016 12:11 am
Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??
.
Last edited by Gcl52 on Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:23 am
What all counts as URM? I have Armenian blood.
I am also very dark complexioned because my parents are from a certain ethnic group in Armenia. As you know, we suffered a genocide and although it's not centric to America, it still put us back quite a bit.
Should I say this on my application and explain the history of the armenian genocide and how it's affected opportunities for the current armenian generation?
Should I say this on my application and explain the history of the armenian genocide and how it's affected opportunities for the current armenian generation?
-
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2016 8:00 pm
Re: What all counts as URM? I have Armenian blood.
You can certainly write about this in your diversity statement. However, you will not qualify as an under represented minority on the basis of your Armenian heritage. To qualify as an URM, you must be: Black, Hispanic, or Native American.Mark Aldridge wrote: Should I say this on my application and explain the history of the armenian genocide and how it's affected opportunities for the current armenian generation?
-
- Posts: 20063
- Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm
Re: What all counts as URM? I have Armenian blood.
Feel free to list that you Armenian in any race/ethnic questionnaires. I wouldn't mention the Armenian genocide unless somehow it has directly impacted you.Mark Aldridge wrote:I am also very dark complexioned because my parents are from a certain ethnic group in Armenia. As you know, we suffered a genocide and although it's not centric to America, it still put us back quite a bit.
Should I say this on my application and explain the history of the armenian genocide and how it's affected opportunities for the current armenian generation?
- CoolHouse
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:53 pm
Biracial URM?
Being both White and Black, would I not be given the URM boost if I select both White and Black when I apply? Would there be a problem down the line if I select just black and it's found out that I am biracial?
- A. Nony Mouse
- Posts: 29293
- Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am
Re: Am I a URM???/Is___ race/circumstance considered URM??
Moved to the general thread on this issue.
-
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:11 pm
Egyptian as black (African American)?
Salam my friends,
I am a Coptic Egyptian from the UK who recently became a US citizen. Back in the UK, I am marked as "black" on the race boxes (UK classifies indigenous (non-Arab) North Africans in the same category as black Africans). However, I am not of sub-Saharan African ancestry. Nor am I Nubian.
Now I am applying to law school in the US. May I mark the African American box on the applications? I have been told I can do this by a former Dean of Admissions at a top law school, who is now an admissions consultant. She says that she knows of many North Africans who checked the box; and that while African American means "black African," there is contrary to popular belief no legal definition of "black African." (It can't be limited to sub-Saharan, or Somalis and many Sundanese couldn't check the box, which they do.) I have also emailed the top law schools--specifying that I'm a regular Coptic Egyptian guy, etc--and most of those that responded said "yes, you may check black."
I understand that in your country African American means 'black African' and 'white Africans' are ineligible. But given my physical appearance--no one has ever seen me as white, some see me as black, most see me as brown--and the apparently vague definition of black I am inclined to check the AA box. If I go through with this I would make my heritage clear on each of the application's affirmative action essays.
I look forward to your feedback, my friends. Comments/criticisms would be welcome, but I'm most especially wondering whether any of you are familiar with North Africans who did this on their applications. The threads here mostly say that you can't do it and you'll get expelled from school or disbarred if you do; but this contradicts what I've been told by people in a better position to know.
For your reference, I look basically the same as Tariq Ramadan, the noted Egyptian scholar.
I invite criticism, but let's avoid rehashing bad arguments from old threads. I understand the technical argument that "North African=white in the US" but I think I can discredit that simply by showing my face (again, Google Tariq Ramadan). The "genetic" argument cuts both ways, since genealogical testing shows that Egyptians are in between southern Europeans and "black" Africans. The people who say "Egyptians=Caucasian" should also note that many groups considered black today (Somalis and Northern Sudanese and Ethiopians) are technically Caucasian.
I am a Coptic Egyptian from the UK who recently became a US citizen. Back in the UK, I am marked as "black" on the race boxes (UK classifies indigenous (non-Arab) North Africans in the same category as black Africans). However, I am not of sub-Saharan African ancestry. Nor am I Nubian.
Now I am applying to law school in the US. May I mark the African American box on the applications? I have been told I can do this by a former Dean of Admissions at a top law school, who is now an admissions consultant. She says that she knows of many North Africans who checked the box; and that while African American means "black African," there is contrary to popular belief no legal definition of "black African." (It can't be limited to sub-Saharan, or Somalis and many Sundanese couldn't check the box, which they do.) I have also emailed the top law schools--specifying that I'm a regular Coptic Egyptian guy, etc--and most of those that responded said "yes, you may check black."
I understand that in your country African American means 'black African' and 'white Africans' are ineligible. But given my physical appearance--no one has ever seen me as white, some see me as black, most see me as brown--and the apparently vague definition of black I am inclined to check the AA box. If I go through with this I would make my heritage clear on each of the application's affirmative action essays.
I look forward to your feedback, my friends. Comments/criticisms would be welcome, but I'm most especially wondering whether any of you are familiar with North Africans who did this on their applications. The threads here mostly say that you can't do it and you'll get expelled from school or disbarred if you do; but this contradicts what I've been told by people in a better position to know.
For your reference, I look basically the same as Tariq Ramadan, the noted Egyptian scholar.
I invite criticism, but let's avoid rehashing bad arguments from old threads. I understand the technical argument that "North African=white in the US" but I think I can discredit that simply by showing my face (again, Google Tariq Ramadan). The "genetic" argument cuts both ways, since genealogical testing shows that Egyptians are in between southern Europeans and "black" Africans. The people who say "Egyptians=Caucasian" should also note that many groups considered black today (Somalis and Northern Sudanese and Ethiopians) are technically Caucasian.
- Desert Fox
- Posts: 18283
- Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:34 pm
Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?
I'd do it since you look at little brown nobody will say shit.
Last edited by Desert Fox on Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:22 pm
Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?
Is this a troll post?
-
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:11 pm
Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?
Ha! Sadly, no. Is it really so risible though? It's somewhat problematic to say I'm "black" but much less so than saying I'm white. "Black African" has no specific meaning under federal law (it is not sub-Saharan, or Somalis and many Sudanese wouldn't qualify).Caligrown wrote:Is this a troll post?
Moreover, many of these categories are problematic; Indians are labeled "Asian" despite being very genetically different from Chinese. Coptic Egyptians are much closer to Sudanese than Indians are to Chinese, both genetically and phenotypically.
Another thing I've also noticed in surfing TLS is that many of the people pontificating the most about how Egyptians, etc have to check white are white Hispanics, who have an incredibly flimsy (though technically correct) claim to minority status. Case in point is that"Van Winkle" character: Talk about projection!
-
- Posts: 8258
- Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:36 am
Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?
Ya played it too strong on that last lineTake_WhatsYours wrote:Ha! Sadly, no. Is it really so risible though? It's somewhat problematic to say I'm "black" but much less so than saying I'm white.Caligrown wrote:Is this a troll post?
Moreover, many of these categories are problematic; Indians are labeled "Asian" despite being very genetically different from Chinese. Coptic Egyptians are much closer to Sudanese than Indians are to Chinese, both genetically and phenotypically.
Another thing I've also noticed in surfing TLS is that many of the people pontificating the most about how Egyptians, etc have to check white are white Hispanics, who have an incredibly flimsy (though technically correct) claim to minority status. Case in point is that"Van Winkle" character: Talk about projection!
Last edited by Danger Zone on Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:11 pm
Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?
Trolling--the shot at Van Winkle, white knight of Affirmative Action--and asking for advice isn't mutually exclusive. It seems appropriate to have a trolly tone, given the nature of my question.Danger Zone wrote:Ya played it too strong on that last lineTake_WhatsYours wrote:Ha! Sadly, no. Is it really so risible though? It's somewhat problematic to say I'm "black" but much less so than saying I'm white.Caligrown wrote:Is this a troll post?
Moreover, many of these categories are problematic; Indians are labeled "Asian" despite being very genetically different from Chinese. Coptic Egyptians are much closer to Sudanese than Indians are to Chinese, both genetically and phenotypically.
Another thing I've also noticed in surfing TLS is that many of the people pontificating the most about how Egyptians, etc have to check white are white Hispanics, who have an incredibly flimsy (though technically correct) claim to minority status. Case in point is that"Van Winkle" character: Talk about projection!
Last edited by Take_WhatsYours on Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 2:22 pm
Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?
It is better you also write an addendum. Just copy and paste what you wrote in the original post.
- emkay625
- Posts: 1988
- Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:31 pm
Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?
Since you are planning on providing a full explanation and context in your diversity essay, I don't see the problem with this. Then schools can basically make their own determination of whether they want to give you the boost or not.
-
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:11 pm
Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?
I'm going to be very specific on the statement: about being Coptic and not sub-Saharan, and about how I am perceived, etc. I can also mention how, at least on census forms, I am considered black by the UK definitions, and that's the box I've always checked.emkay625 wrote:Since you are planning on providing a full explanation and context in your diversity essay, I don't see the problem with this. Then schools can basically make their own determination of whether they want to give you the boost or not.
I have always considered Northeast Africans--Berbers, Nubians, Ethiopians, Coptic Egyptians, Somalis, etc--to be the same race. (none of these groups consider themselves to be "blacks" or "whites' by the way: they were traditionally labaeled the "hamitic" race by anthropologists, a subset of Caucasians. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamitic). I can't honestly say I identify with black American culture, but I definitely identify with Northeast African culture and heritage.
-
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:09 pm
Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?
North africans don't get any boost, only those that have subsaharan african ancestry. You can right about your heritage in your PS and use it to construct a nice narrative about your experiences, you will not be getting the urm boost.
-
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:11 pm
Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?
By that logic, Somalis wouldn't be eligible for the boost, which they clearly are. AA is defined as "black African," not sub-Saharan African, even if most AAs are of sub-Saharan African descent.rav17 wrote:North africans don't get any boost, only those that have subsaharan african ancestry.
The meaning of "black" is vague. As I say, North Africans are labeled "black" by the UK government; and traditionally, anthropologists labeled "black" Somalis, Ethiopians, etc as the same race as Egyptians--the "hamitic" race. In any case, "black" is much closer to how I'm perceived than white.
Last edited by Take_WhatsYours on Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:13 pm
Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?
.Take_WhatsYours wrote:By that logic, Somalis wouldn't be eligible for the boost, which they clearly are. AA is defined as "black African," not sub-Saharan African. "Black" has a vague meaning that is, nonetheless, much closer to how I am perceived than "white."rav17 wrote:North africans don't get any boost, only those that have subsaharan african ancestry.
Last edited by youngwarrior on Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
-
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:11 pm
Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?
We'll see what happens with my application. I'm willing to bet that at least a few T-14 schools will give me a boost. I think this sort of decision will be made on an ad hoc basis, with some schools agreeing and others disagreeing.youngwarrior wrote:I know a Black Canadian who is of Somalian ancestry, he went to my alma mater and just graduated from Yale Law School. He didn't get any boost, but his stats we're extremely competitive, he was even a k-jd.Take_WhatsYours wrote:By that logic, Somalis wouldn't be eligible for the boost, which they clearly are. AA is defined as "black African," not sub-Saharan African. "Black" has a vague meaning that is, nonetheless, much closer to how I am perceived than "white."rav17 wrote:North africans don't get any boost, only those that have subsaharan african ancestry.
The problem that some North Africans who have tried to do this in the past have is that they're trying to say they're 'African American but not black,' which is obviously ridiculous. The real vagueness lies in the concept of blackness. I may see this better coming from the UK. As I say, North Africans are labeled black under UK law, and most could not pass for white in a million years.
There are also cases of Egyptian Americans identifying as black with no apparent consequences, and acceptance from the black community. CNN recently ran a story called "black in America" where an Egyptian girl named Becca identified as black.
-
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:09 pm
Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?
I wish you the best of luck in your cycle, however I am betting you will not receive a boost. African/Black as defined by the law school admissions council is someone who has whole or partial subsaharan african ancestry and unless you do, you won't get it. There is a completely different category for North Africans and that is the box you'll have to tick.Take_WhatsYours wrote:We'll see what happens with my application. I'm willing to bet that at least a few T-14 schools will give me a boost. I think this sort of decision will be made on an ad hoc basis, with some schools agreeing and others disagreeing.youngwarrior wrote:I know a Black Canadian who is of Somalian ancestry, he went to my alma mater and just graduated from Yale Law School. He didn't get any boost, but his stats we're extremely competitive, he was even a k-jd.Take_WhatsYours wrote:By that logic, Somalis wouldn't be eligible for the boost, which they clearly are. AA is defined as "black African," not sub-Saharan African. "Black" has a vague meaning that is, nonetheless, much closer to how I am perceived than "white."rav17 wrote:North africans don't get any boost, only those that have subsaharan african ancestry.
The problem that North Africans who have tried to do this in the past have is that they're trying to say they're 'African American but not black,' which is obviously ridiculous. The real vagueness lies in the concept of blackness. As I say, North Africans are labeled black under UK law, and most could not pass for white in a million years.
There are also cases of Egyptian Americans identifying as black with no apparent consequences, and acceptance from the black community. CNN recently ran a story called "black in America" where an Egyptian girl named Becca identified as black.
- Jordan Catalano
- Posts: 100
- Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:04 pm
Re: Egyptian as black (African American)?
No, this issue is actually pretty big in Middle Eastern/ North African (MENA) communities within the United States.Caligrown wrote:Is this a troll post?
And, yes, North Africans are categorized as "white" in the United States under federal racial guidelines, the result of a long and complicated history involving early immigration patterns and legal pathways to citizenship.
John Tehranian and Khaled Beydoun are two law professors who write on this history, for anyone who is interested. Or you can entertain yourself with five hours of Census Bureau discussion on this topic here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hocpI5WTayw
To answer OP's question, I think you should feel comfortable marking that you are a racial minority on your application, and then incorporate an explanation of your background into your personal or diversity statement.