If not in the T-14, should you even go?

(BLS, URM status, non-traditional, GLBT)
Jimlaw123

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If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby Jimlaw123 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:22 pm

Pondering if you’re an URM and not in the T-14, should you even go? If so, what are good options?( Howard?),

If you got accepted into a good T3 school, in a booming state, and industry( tech), does that matter?( School is second best in the city).

Any insight is appreciated.

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unsweetened

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby unsweetened » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:34 pm

Jimlaw123 wrote:Pondering if you’re an URM and not in the T-14, should you even go? If so, what are good options?( Howard?),

If you got accepted into a good T3 school, in a booming state, and industry( tech), does that matter?( School is second best in the city).

Any insight is appreciated.

I think that really depends on your goals and reasons for going to law school.

Is there such a thing as a good TTT? I don't think so. Specialty areas don't matter IMO. Second best in the city is not a bad thing if you are talking New York, Chicago, or even LA, but if it's a secondary market, that's not as helpful in terms of seeking employment. Again, this is subject to your employment objectives.

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby Jimlaw123 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:44 pm

unsweetened wrote:
Jimlaw123 wrote:Pondering if you’re an URM and not in the T-14, should you even go? If so, what are good options?( Howard?),

If you got accepted into a good T3 school, in a booming state, and industry( tech), does that matter?( School is second best in the city).

Any insight is appreciated.

I think that really depends on your goals and reasons for going to law school.

Is there such a thing as a good TTT? I don't think so. Specialty areas don't matter IMO. Second best in the city is not a bad thing if you are talking New York, Chicago, or even LA, but if it's a secondary market, that's not as helpful in terms of seeking employment. Again, this is subject to your employment objectives.



Goal is to be in contracts, corporate, or business Law. The cotybisnSeattle( huge tech industry, and growing), grew up here, don’t “ love the people”, but I can manage.( Wouldn’t mind Health Law)

Howard is a spot I like, but moving to D.C. seems daunting, and if I’m not top of the class, I’m stuck in D.C., which wasn’t the goal, at all.

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby sparkytrainer » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:51 pm

Jimlaw123 wrote:
unsweetened wrote:
Jimlaw123 wrote:Pondering if you’re an URM and not in the T-14, should you even go? If so, what are good options?( Howard?),

If you got accepted into a good T3 school, in a booming state, and industry( tech), does that matter?( School is second best in the city).

Any insight is appreciated.

I think that really depends on your goals and reasons for going to law school.

Is there such a thing as a good TTT? I don't think so. Specialty areas don't matter IMO. Second best in the city is not a bad thing if you are talking New York, Chicago, or even LA, but if it's a secondary market, that's not as helpful in terms of seeking employment. Again, this is subject to your employment objectives.



Goal is to be in contracts, corporate, or business Law. The cotybisnSeattle( huge tech industry, and growing), grew up here, don’t “ love the people”, but I can manage.( Wouldn’t mind Health Law)

Howard is a spot I like, but moving to D.C. seems daunting, and if I’m not top of the class, I’m stuck in D.C., which wasn’t the goal, at all.


To be honest, its not that if you aren't in the top of the class at Howard or Seattle you are stuck in the area. The truth is if you aren't in the top of the class, you are stuck without a job.

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hoos89

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby hoos89 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:55 pm

The subject line of your post is a bit misleading. There's a HUGE gap between T-14 and T3 with a lot of schools in between. The answer is: yes there are schools outside the T-14 that are worth attending in a lot of circumstances, but Seattle is not one of them. Seattle only placed 7.0% of its 2017 class in firms of 100+ attorneys and 0% in federal clerkships. Only 57.9% of the class had a full-time, long-term job as an attorney 9 months after graduation.

Being the 2nd best school in a city without a particularly large legal market (like Seattle) is pretty meaningless. I don't think there's any objectives you could have that would make going to Seattle a reasonable decision. This is not a school you want to attend.

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby Jimlaw123 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 2:57 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
Jimlaw123 wrote:
unsweetened wrote:
Jimlaw123 wrote:Pondering if you’re an URM and not in the T-14, should you even go? If so, what are good options?( Howard?),

If you got accepted into a good T3 school, in a booming state, and industry( tech), does that matter?( School is second best in the city).

Any insight is appreciated.

I think that really depends on your goals and reasons for going to law school.

Is there such a thing as a good TTT? I don't think so. Specialty areas don't matter IMO. Second best in the city is not a bad thing if you are talking New York, Chicago, or even LA, but if it's a secondary market, that's not as helpful in terms of seeking employment. Again, this is subject to your employment objectives.



Goal is to be in contracts, corporate, or business Law. The cotybisnSeattle( huge tech industry, and growing), grew up here, don’t “ love the people”, but I can manage.( Wouldn’t mind Health Law)

Howard is a spot I like, but moving to D.C. seems daunting, and if I’m not top of the class, I’m stuck in D.C., which wasn’t the goal, at all.


To be honest, its not that if you aren't in the top of the class at Howard or Seattle you are stuck in the area. The truth is if you aren't in the top of the class, you are stuck without a job.



Thanks for the clarity, and I know that you’re right. So, what’s the best case? Go to where it’s easier to be at the top? Since, I liked Howard, but the cost, and the more I see it... I need to minimize my cost, at all costs.. if I have that hard of a row, also being URM.. i get the vibe in the legal world, we’re screwed from the jump.. though I’ve been told if I do decent at Howard, I can comeback to California, or that there is a chance... but, I don’t know... seems like law isn’t good for URM’s, even at the top spots.

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby Jimlaw123 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:00 pm

hoos89 wrote:The subject line of your post is a bit misleading. There's a HUGE gap between T-14 and T3 with a lot of schools in between. The answer is: yes there are schools outside the T-14 that are worth attending in a lot of circumstances, but Seattle is not one of them. Seattle only placed 7.0% of its 2017 class in firms of 100+ attorneys and 0% in federal clerkships. Only 57.9% of the class had a full-time, long-term job as an attorney 9 months after graduation.

Being the 2nd best school in a city without a particularly large legal market (like Seattle) is pretty meaningless. I don't think there's any objectives you could have that would make going to Seattle a reasonable decision. This is not a school you want to attend.


So, then where? The only other option is Howard.. My family is not keen on this, and has basically refused to help me... I don’t know what to do( People are urging me to go to Seattle U, Cost, saving money, etc.. but, does Howard get any of those things you’ve mentioned?)

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby nixy » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:01 pm

The other option is to retake and reapply. There are actually lots and lots of options that are neither T14 nor Howard or Seattle.

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby unsweetened » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:04 pm

Jimlaw123 wrote:
unsweetened wrote:
Jimlaw123 wrote:Pondering if you’re an URM and not in the T-14, should you even go? If so, what are good options?( Howard?),

If you got accepted into a good T3 school, in a booming state, and industry( tech), does that matter?( School is second best in the city).

Any insight is appreciated.

I think that really depends on your goals and reasons for going to law school.

Is there such a thing as a good TTT? I don't think so. Specialty areas don't matter IMO. Second best in the city is not a bad thing if you are talking New York, Chicago, or even LA, but if it's a secondary market, that's not as helpful in terms of seeking employment. Again, this is subject to your employment objectives.



Goal is to be in contracts, corporate, or business Law. The cotybisnSeattle( huge tech industry, and growing), grew up here, don’t “ love the people”, but I can manage.( Wouldn’t mind Health Law)

Howard is a spot I like, but moving to D.C. seems daunting, and if I’m not top of the class, I’m stuck in D.C., which wasn’t the goal, at all.

There is probably an argument to be made for UW with a scholarship. I don't think it's an objectively poor decision to go to a regional T1 school with money. Going to a state school with scholarship money keeps debt down and you'd be in-market, making networking easier. It's not as optimal as ending up at a T14, but it could still be a justifiable decision.

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hoos89

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby hoos89 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:11 pm

You're forgetting the third option: "Don't go to law school." You don't have to attend Seattle OR Howard. Seattle is not a reasonable choice. You're likely to end up spending 3 years and a lot of money only to get a relatively low paying job (if you get a job at all). Seattle does not have a strong legal market...if you want to end up with a good job there you need to attend at LEAST Washington, if not a T-14.

Your reasonable available choices are: 1) retake the LSAT and get a better score and reapply next cycle or 2) don't go to law school. If you want to get involved in Seattle's tech industry, what's stopping you from getting a job in that sector now? Could you not just get a masters in CS or something instead of a law degree that's unlikely to actually get you a decent job?

There could MAYBE be an argument made for going to Howard if you were okay ending up in DC for the foreseeable furutre because it does have decent (32.0%) placement in firms of 100+ attorneys and federal clerkships. That said, 63.1% placement in full-time, long-term jobs as lawyers is not so great. There's still a significant chance that Howard will leave you high and dry. In any case, I definitely would not go there if your goal is to end up back in the Northwest.

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby Jimlaw123 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:27 pm

hoos89 wrote:You're forgetting the third option: "Don't go to law school." You don't have to attend Seattle OR Howard. Seattle is not a reasonable choice. You're likely to end up spending 3 years and a lot of money only to get a relatively low paying job (if you get a job at all). Seattle does not have a strong legal market...if you want to end up with a good job there you need to attend at LEAST Washington, if not a T-14.

Your reasonable available choices are: 1) retake the LSAT and get a better score and reapply next cycle or 2) don't go to law school. If you want to get involved in Seattle's tech industry, what's stopping you from getting a job in that sector now? Could you not just get a masters in CS or something instead of a law degree that's unlikely to actually get you a decent job?

There could MAYBE be an argument made for going to Howard if you were okay ending up in DC for the foreseeable furutre because it does have decent (32.0%) placement in firms of 100+ attorneys and federal clerkships. That said, 63.1% placement in full-time, long-term jobs as lawyers is not so great. There's still a significant chance that Howard will leave you high and dry.


I understand your point... But I don’t think I can at this point. I was accepted into law schools last year(these beingnamong them), I’m older (33), and Biglaw, I feel is a young attorney’s game. When I graduate I’ll be 36. I postponed for 4-5 years working, and getting pretty high in the entertainment industry( knew I needed more contract knowledge, and power to excel here( If thry know you’re an attorney, you deal with 65% less bullshit, and can make a lot of side money in L.A.( entry level contracts, helping people navigate the system, second opinion on industry deals, can get meetings with confidence to create content, or shows etc...).

I’ve tried, only got so far, as most of my friends are lawyers ( USC, USC, Syracuse, and USD) 2 of them are black lawyers( one is huge in IP, she’s menoring me).

I don’t have the years to waste, or not go. It came down to these two places since I was raised in Seattle, have familu there, and can save up to 70000, attending. Howard is at sticker( though if I do well, I’m told the pay for your next 2 years), I plan to still dabble in the indie film market ( as that was the reason I postponed last year, was to produce a film), and it’s time. It sucks my options aren’t the Yale’s and USC’s, But that’s life.

As my lawyer buddy tells me, “ There’s more than one way to skin a pig”, in reference to making money as an attorney. That’s the reason, I need to move on, and I like knowing things, and the law interests the heck out of me( since I’ve dealt with making, or procuring deals in film for the last 5 years).

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby Jimlaw123 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:32 pm

unsweetened wrote:
Jimlaw123 wrote:
unsweetened wrote:
Jimlaw123 wrote:Pondering if you’re an URM and not in the T-14, should you even go? If so, what are good options?( Howard?),

If you got accepted into a good T3 school, in a booming state, and industry( tech), does that matter?( School is second best in the city).

Any insight is appreciated.

I think that really depends on your goals and reasons for going to law school.

Is there such a thing as a good TTT? I don't think so. Specialty areas don't matter IMO. Second best in the city is not a bad thing if you are talking New York, Chicago, or even LA, but if it's a secondary market, that's not as helpful in terms of seeking employment. Again, this is subject to your employment objectives.



Goal is to be in contracts, corporate, or business Law. The cotybisnSeattle( huge tech industry, and growing), grew up here, don’t “ love the people”, but I can manage.( Wouldn’t mind Health Law)

Howard is a spot I like, but moving to D.C. seems daunting, and if I’m not top of the class, I’m stuck in D.C., which wasn’t the goal, at all.

There is probably an argument to be made for UW with a scholarship. I don't think it's an objectively poor decision to go to a regional T1 school with money. Going to a state school with scholarship money keeps debt down and you'd be in-market, making networking easier. It's not as optimal as ending up at a T14, but it could still be a justifiable decision.


Seattle U gave me 10,000 a year(so, 30,000), and I won’t have to worry about room, and board, or food( Family here), so that take it down about 50-60,000 in this city( Amazon, tech boom, cost of living is L.A. prices(11-1400 for a studio) so, I’d owe at max, 135K( if I don’t donwell, and procure more scholarships, or if I’m at the bottom of my class).

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby 4LTsPointingNorth » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:45 pm

Jimlaw123 wrote:
unsweetened wrote:
Jimlaw123 wrote:
unsweetened wrote:
Jimlaw123 wrote:Pondering if you’re an URM and not in the T-14, should you even go? If so, what are good options?( Howard?),

If you got accepted into a good T3 school, in a booming state, and industry( tech), does that matter?( School is second best in the city).

Any insight is appreciated.

I think that really depends on your goals and reasons for going to law school.

Is there such a thing as a good TTT? I don't think so. Specialty areas don't matter IMO. Second best in the city is not a bad thing if you are talking New York, Chicago, or even LA, but if it's a secondary market, that's not as helpful in terms of seeking employment. Again, this is subject to your employment objectives.



Goal is to be in contracts, corporate, or business Law. The cotybisnSeattle( huge tech industry, and growing), grew up here, don’t “ love the people”, but I can manage.( Wouldn’t mind Health Law)

Howard is a spot I like, but moving to D.C. seems daunting, and if I’m not top of the class, I’m stuck in D.C., which wasn’t the goal, at all.

There is probably an argument to be made for UW with a scholarship. I don't think it's an objectively poor decision to go to a regional T1 school with money. Going to a state school with scholarship money keeps debt down and you'd be in-market, making networking easier. It's not as optimal as ending up at a T14, but it could still be a justifiable decision.


Seattle U gave me 10,000 a year(so, 30,000), and I won’t have to worry about room, and board, or food( Family here), so that take it down about 50-60,000 in this city( Amazon, tech boom, cost of living is L.A. prices(11-1400 for a studio) so, I’d owe at max, 135K( if I don’t donwell, and procure more scholarships, or if I’m at the bottom of my class).


Paying off 135k in debt is much riskier at 36 than it is at 26. That gives you 10 fewer years to save for retirement. Based on the information available online about Seattle U, I don't think that degree is worth racking up a six figure debt for even if you do beat the odds and end up employed straight after law school.

Getting a higher score on the LSAT and reapplying next year will literally save you tens of thousands of dollars, and it could potentially save you over $100,000. It also gives you one more year to continue to grow in your current career and to start networking with even more attorneys in the Seattle market (it sounds like you've already started, which is great). Although it might feel like you're delaying your career progression, you would actually be optimizing it.

If I were in your shoes, this is the path that I would choose to give myself the highest possibility of future success.

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby hoos89 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:52 pm

Not sure what you think all these entry level jobs that pay well and aren't biglaw are. If you literally just want to get a law degree so that you can "deal with 65% less bullshit" in your current job then I can't imagine it would be worth 3 years of your life and six figures of tuition (not even counting lost wages) to go to a school like Seattle. If what you really want is contract knowledge...you don't need to spend 3 years in law school to acquire that (just watch some lectures online or pay for a bar review course). In any case, it's not like you're going to graduate law school with a bunch of actually useful legal skills.

You being older is even more of a reason not to waste time and money going to a terrible law school.

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby Jimlaw123 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:05 pm

4LTsPointingNorth wrote:
Jimlaw123 wrote:
unsweetened wrote:
Jimlaw123 wrote:
unsweetened wrote:
Jimlaw123 wrote:Pondering if you’re an URM and not in the T-14, should you even go? If so, what are good options?( Howard?),

If you got accepted into a good T3 school, in a booming state, and industry( tech), does that matter?( School is second best in the city).

Any insight is appreciated.

I think that really depends on your goals and reasons for going to law school.

Is there such a thing as a good TTT? I don't think so. Specialty areas don't matter IMO. Second best in the city is not a bad thing if you are talking New York, Chicago, or even LA, but if it's a secondary market, that's not as helpful in terms of seeking employment. Again, this is subject to your employment objectives.



Goal is to be in contracts, corporate, or business Law. The cotybisnSeattle( huge tech industry, and growing), grew up here, don’t “ love the people”, but I can manage.( Wouldn’t mind Health Law)

Howard is a spot I like, but moving to D.C. seems daunting, and if I’m not top of the class, I’m stuck in D.C., which wasn’t the goal, at all.

There is probably an argument to be made for UW with a scholarship. I don't think it's an objectively poor decision to go to a regional T1 school with money. Going to a state school with scholarship money keeps debt down and you'd be in-market, making networking easier. It's not as optimal as ending up at a T14, but it could still be a justifiable decision.


Seattle U gave me 10,000 a year(so, 30,000), and I won’t have to worry about room, and board, or food( Family here), so that take it down about 50-60,000 in this city( Amazon, tech boom, cost of living is L.A. prices(11-1400 for a studio) so, I’d owe at max, 135K( if I don’t donwell, and procure more scholarships, or if I’m at the bottom of my class).


Paying off 135k in debt is much riskier at 36 than it is at 26. That gives you 10 fewer years to save for retirement. Based on the information available online about Seattle U, I don't think that degree is worth racking up a six figure debt for even if you do beat the odds and end up employed straight after law school.

Getting a higher score on the LSAT and reapplying next year will literally save you tens of thousands of dollars, and it could potentially save you over $100,000. It also gives you one more year to continue to grow in your current career and to start networking with even more attorneys in the Seattle market (it sounds like you've already started, which is great). Although it might feel like you're delaying your career progression, you would actually be optimizing it.

I’ve taken the LSAT 4 times in 5 years( postponed 2 times as well), I think I’m at my limit. I went from a 137-157. That’s the best I have to give. I was losing my sanity, time, work, friends etc.. I cannot do it again.

Howard is the place my friends recommended since they get a shot at Biglaw, but my family is against it( since it’s in D.C.), and it’s at full sticker. Howard doesn’t negotiate schloarships, and I applied late( was accepted last gear as well), if I don’t go now, they’d be done with me. The debt is an issue I have, since I’d have to kill it, literally, to justify the cost of it. Seattle is out of the question I guess?

So being a lawyer means no stability, and going with the wind? Wow.. that sucks.

If I were in your shoes, this is the path that I would choose to give myself the highest possibility of future success.

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby Jimlaw123 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:10 pm

hoos89 wrote:Not sure what you think all these entry level jobs that pay well and aren't biglaw are. If you literally just want to get a law degree so that you can "deal with 65% less bullshit" in your current job then I can't imagine it would be worth 3 years of your life and six figures of tuition (not even counting lost wages) to go to a school like Seattle. If what you really want is contract knowledge...you don't need to spend 3 years in law school to acquire that (just watch some lectures online or pay for a bar review course). In any case, it's not like you're going to graduate law school with a bunch of actually useful legal skills.

You being older is even more of a reason not to waste time and money going to a terrible law school.


I see your point. But, go for sticker at Howard? That’d be worse, right?(220,000), and if I do not do well, I’m stuck in a new city, having to work for the next 6 years or so?

This sucks, being a minority in law.. it seems like walking into a “ burning house”, and people don’t understand that( family and friends), so in your view on the top 14 matter? Fair enough, University of Washington’s employment rate is 68%, Seattle U is 60%, and that’s in Seattle( UW is the biggest school, then Gonzaga, Seattle U, Wilamette etc...), what if my goal is to do a niche market?( intellectual property) or something a long those lines? Or Health law?

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby 4LTsPointingNorth » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:17 pm

Jimlaw123 wrote:
4LTsPointingNorth wrote:
Jimlaw123 wrote:
unsweetened wrote:
Jimlaw123 wrote:
unsweetened wrote:
Jimlaw123 wrote:Pondering if you’re an URM and not in the T-14, should you even go? If so, what are good options?( Howard?),

If you got accepted into a good T3 school, in a booming state, and industry( tech), does that matter?( School is second best in the city).

Any insight is appreciated.

I think that really depends on your goals and reasons for going to law school.

Is there such a thing as a good TTT? I don't think so. Specialty areas don't matter IMO. Second best in the city is not a bad thing if you are talking New York, Chicago, or even LA, but if it's a secondary market, that's not as helpful in terms of seeking employment. Again, this is subject to your employment objectives.



Goal is to be in contracts, corporate, or business Law. The cotybisnSeattle( huge tech industry, and growing), grew up here, don’t “ love the people”, but I can manage.( Wouldn’t mind Health Law)

Howard is a spot I like, but moving to D.C. seems daunting, and if I’m not top of the class, I’m stuck in D.C., which wasn’t the goal, at all.

There is probably an argument to be made for UW with a scholarship. I don't think it's an objectively poor decision to go to a regional T1 school with money. Going to a state school with scholarship money keeps debt down and you'd be in-market, making networking easier. It's not as optimal as ending up at a T14, but it could still be a justifiable decision.


Seattle U gave me 10,000 a year(so, 30,000), and I won’t have to worry about room, and board, or food( Family here), so that take it down about 50-60,000 in this city( Amazon, tech boom, cost of living is L.A. prices(11-1400 for a studio) so, I’d owe at max, 135K( if I don’t donwell, and procure more scholarships, or if I’m at the bottom of my class).


Paying off 135k in debt is much riskier at 36 than it is at 26. That gives you 10 fewer years to save for retirement. Based on the information available online about Seattle U, I don't think that degree is worth racking up a six figure debt for even if you do beat the odds and end up employed straight after law school.

Getting a higher score on the LSAT and reapplying next year will literally save you tens of thousands of dollars, and it could potentially save you over $100,000. It also gives you one more year to continue to grow in your current career and to start networking with even more attorneys in the Seattle market (it sounds like you've already started, which is great). Although it might feel like you're delaying your career progression, you would actually be optimizing it.

I’ve taken the LSAT 4 times in 5 years( postponed 2 times as well), I think I’m at my limit. I went from a 137-157. That’s the best I have to give. I was losing my sanity, time, work, friends etc.. I cannot do it again.

Howard is the place my friends recommended since they get a shot at Biglaw, but my family is against it( since it’s in D.C.), and it’s at full sticker. Howard doesn’t negotiate schloarships, and I applied late( was accepted last gear as well), if I don’t go now, they’d be done with me. The debt is an issue I have, since I’d have to kill it, literally, to justify the cost of it. Seattle is out of the question I guess?

So being a lawyer means no stability, and going with the wind? Wow.. that sucks.

If I were in your shoes, this is the path that I would choose to give myself the highest possibility of future success.


If retaking isn't a good option and your only other option is Howard at full price (with all the family and life concerns that would personally attach for you having to move across the country) then it seems like doing something other than law school as your next step is the best available option for you.

Taking the LSAT 4 times takes a lot of grit, and I really respect you for doing that. It will be an equally tough pill to swallow to give up after having invested so much time and effort into this. That said, I firmly believe that giving up on law school will be in your best financial and career interests given the options you have in front of you right now.

It totally sucks, but it sucks much less right now than your life will suck 3 years from now if you try to pursue this along any of the pathways available to you right now.

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby Jimlaw123 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:25 pm

Howard is a spot I like, but moving to D.C. seems daunting, and if I’m not top of the class, I’m stuck in D.C., which wasn’t the goal, at all.[/quote]
There is probably an argument to be made for UW with a scholarship. I don't think it's an objectively poor decision to go to a regional T1 school with money. Going to a state school with scholarship money keeps debt down and you'd be in-market, making networking easier. It's not as optimal as ending up at a T14, but it could still be a justifiable decision.[/quote]

Seattle U gave me 10,000 a year(so, 30,000), and I won’t have to worry about room, and board, or food( Family here), so that take it down about 50-60,000 in this city( Amazon, tech boom, cost of living is L.A. prices(11-1400 for a studio) so, I’d owe at max, 135K( if I don’t donwell, and procure more scholarships, or if I’m at the bottom of my class).[/quote]

Paying off 135k in debt is much riskier at 36 than it is at 26. That gives you 10 fewer years to save for retirement. Based on the information available online about Seattle U, I don't think that degree is worth racking up a six figure debt for even if you do beat the odds and end up employed straight after law school.

Getting a higher score on the LSAT and reapplying next year will literally save you tens of thousands of dollars, and it could potentially save you over $100,000. It also gives you one more year to continue to grow in your current career and to start networking with even more attorneys in the Seattle market (it sounds like you've already started, which is great). Although it might feel like you're delaying your career progression, you would actually be optimizing it.

I’ve taken the LSAT 4 times in 5 years( postponed 2 times as well), I think I’m at my limit. I went from a 137-157. That’s the best I have to give. I was losing my sanity, time, work, friends etc.. I cannot do it again.

Howard is the place my friends recommended since they get a shot at Biglaw, but my family is against it( since it’s in D.C.), and it’s at full sticker. Howard doesn’t negotiate schloarships, and I applied late( was accepted last gear as well), if I don’t go now, they’d be done with me. The debt is an issue I have, since I’d have to kill it, literally, to justify the cost of it. Seattle is out of the question I guess?

So being a lawyer means no stability, and going with the wind? Wow.. that sucks.

If I were in your shoes, this is the path that I would choose to give myself the highest possibility of future success.[/quote][/quote]

If retaking isn't a good option and your only other option is Howard at full price (with all the family and life concerns that would personally attach for you having to move across the country) then it seems like doing something other than law school as your next step is the best available option for you.

Taking the LSAT 4 times takes a lot of grit, and I really respect you for doing that. It will be an equally tough pill to swallow to give up after having invested so much time and effort into this. That said, I firmly believe that giving up on law school will be in your best financial and career interests given the options you have in front of you right now.

It totally sucks, but it sucks much less right now than your life will suck 3 years from now if you try to pursue this along any of the pathways available to you right now.[/quote]


Howard is no good as well? Then if I was a brand new guy, as a minority, where would I need to go? This.. This isa really bad thing to go through. If I don’t go this year, my mother and family would be done with me.. literally.
(Not my main motivation.. but money, time, stress, etc.. wd’ve gone through.. this is my last stand in life.. truly.)

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hoos89

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby hoos89 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:29 pm

If you have a STEM degree and want to do IP then your odds are better, but other than that wanting to go into a niche is unlikely to help you. Still doesn't make Seattle a good choice though. Washington is not a great school in its own right, but it's much better than Seattle. Not a place I'd recommend that everyone go, but Washington would probably be a sensible choice for someone like you who is from the area and wants to stay.

Ultimately I'm not understanding why you really NEED to go to law school. Unless you've got a rock solid offer from one of your attorney contacts to come work for them (in a field and at a pay level that you'd be satisfied with), going to Seattle is unlikely to work out for you.

It sounds to me like you're letting your family make this decision for you. I know this is easier said than done, but you need to live your own life...especially since it sounds like you're the one who will be footing the bill, not them. Even a good law school is not some panacea that is going to cure all ills in your life and make everything okay, and Seattle is DEFINITELY not that place.
Last edited by hoos89 on Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Toni V

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby Toni V » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:32 pm

No, to your original Q. In the case of a large metro where firms constantly hire from nearby LS'…..maybe. But you best end up with honors.

(What are your current L&G scores?)

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby QContinuum » Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Jimlaw123 wrote:Pondering if you’re an URM and not in the T-14, should you even go? If so, what are good options?


There are a number of non-T14s that are solid options for many, many people. There are the "Super Regionals": Texas, UCLA, Vandy, WUSTL, USC, which would be great options for most applicants. There are some super strong local schools: Irvine, BU, GWU, BC, Fordham, which would make a lot of sense for folks targeting CA (Irvine), DC (GWU), Boston (BU/BC), and NY (Fordham, and BU/BC/GWU to a lesser extent). Finally, there are also some decently strong local schools that may make sense for certain applicants (e.g., SMU in Dallas, Cardozo in NY, Hastings in NorCal for folks with tech backgrounds).

It's not T14 or bust. That said, Seattle is not a good choice, and given your situation I don't think I'd advocate for Howard either.

Jimlaw123 wrote:This sucks, being a minority in law.. it seems like walking into a “ burning house”


If it helps, this has nothing to do with being a minority. We'd be giving you the exact same advice to avoid Seattle and Howard if you were a white man. If anything, being a URM is helpful to you at this stage, as URMs generally (significantly) outperform their LSAT/GPA in law school admissions relative to non-URMs.

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby Jimlaw123 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:40 pm

Toni V wrote:No, to your original Q. In the case of a large metro where firms constantly hire from nearby LS'…..maybe. But you best end up with honors.

(What are your current L&G scores?)


GPA 3.2, Cal undergrad( and JC in cali), 4 retakes 148, 147, 152, 157( 2 no shows).

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hoos89

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby hoos89 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:02 pm

A URM with 3.2 and 157 got into Texas this past cycle. I suspect that you didn't apply broadly enough if Howard and Seattle are your only two options. I recommend that you spend some time on http://lawschoolnumbers.com/ looking at the results of URM applicants with similar numbers. I also recommend that you look at the potential results if you increase your LSAT by 2 or 3 points. I understand that you've taken the LSAT 4 times but you've increased your score significantly each of the last two times.

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Mokosc

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Re: If not in the T-14, should you even go?

Postby Mokosc » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:09 am

hoos89 wrote:You're forgetting the third option: "Don't go to law school." You don't have to attend Seattle OR Howard. Seattle is not a reasonable choice. You're likely to end up spending 3 years and a lot of money only to get a relatively low paying job (if you get a job at all). Seattle does not have a strong legal market...if you want to end up with a good job there you need to attend at LEAST Washington, if not a T-14.

Your reasonable available choices are: 1) retake the LSAT and get a better score and reapply next cycle or 2) don't go to law school. If you want to get involved in Seattle's tech industry, what's stopping you from getting a job in that sector now? Could you not just get a masters in CS or something instead of a law degree that's unlikely to actually get you a decent job?

There could MAYBE be an argument made for going to Howard if you were okay ending up in DC for the foreseeable furutre because it does have decent (32.0%) placement in firms of 100+ attorneys and federal clerkships. That said, 63.1% placement in full-time, long-term jobs as lawyers is not so great. There's still a significant chance that Howard will leave you high and dry. In any case, I definitely would not go there if your goal is to end up back in the Northwest.


I would follow this. Retake the test.



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