Columbia or University of Connecticut?

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Columbia or Connecticut?

Poll ended at Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:42 pm

Columbia, 220k debt
16
94%
Connecticut, 40k debt
1
6%
 
Total votes: 17

memo2

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Re: Columbia or University of Connecticut?

Postby memo2 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:55 pm

QContinuum wrote:OP- Thanks for the update, and for seriously considering our advice. I echo cav's kudos re: your decision.

I also echo cav in saying that your case is one of the rare situations where there really isn't much of a point in retaking the LSAT. You aren't going to get in to Y/S/H/Chicago (or Cornell, which is idiosyncratically picky re: GPA) even if you were to bump your LSAT up to 180. Also due to your GPA, you aren't going to get any significant merit aid at Columbia/NYU even if you were to bump your LSAT up to 180. At the same time, your 174 is already plenty high enough to get you lots of $$$ at the "lower" T13/T20; it's already above their LSAT 75%, so they won't really give you more money for bumping the 174 to 180.

So the key here next cycle is to blanket the T13 from Columbia on down (probably excluding Cornell which is not splitter-friendly, and possibly excluding Berkeley which is notably stingy on merit aid). If cost is a major concern you can/should also pick a few T20s to apply to. If you're generally interested in practicing in NYC/DC, probably Georgetown, Vandy and WUSTL would be the T20s to apply to. It looks like you'd likely get a full ride at WUSTL, which you could then consider along with your most generous T13 offer (which is likely to come from Michigan).

Again, though, the best - objective - choice is almost certainly going to be a "lower" T13/T20 with lots of $$$. If you remain unwilling to attend school outside CT/NYC, then you might as well matriculate now to Columbia, because you aren't really going to get a better offer from them next cycle regardless of how high you crank up your LSAT.

cavalier1138 wrote:It's so rare to see a 0L make the right choice on this, so kudos to you.

With your GPA, even if you were able to bump your score up a point or two (or five), it wouldn't matter.


I'm hoping to save up some money by working full-time while living with my parents (that may sound a bit lame, but whatever). I will definitely apply more broadly next time, and will also check out some other schools/cities when I get a chance. Thanks for your advice!

The Lsat Airbender

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Re: Columbia or University of Connecticut?

Postby The Lsat Airbender » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:49 pm

memo2 wrote:\I'm hoping to save up some money by working full-time while living with my parents (that may sound a bit lame, but whatever). I will definitely apply more broadly next time, and will also check out some other schools/cities when I get a chance. Thanks for your advice!


Not lame - great life choice! Don't let any idiotic judgment from people your age get to you.

Necho2

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Re: Columbia or University of Connecticut?

Postby Necho2 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:35 pm

memo2 wrote:
QContinuum wrote:OP- Thanks for the update, and for seriously considering our advice. I echo cav's kudos re: your decision.


I'm hoping to save up some money by working full-time while living with my parents (that may sound a bit lame, but whatever). I will definitely apply more broadly next time, and will also check out some other schools/cities when I get a chance. Thanks for your advice!


Hey I really strongly urge you to spend that money on at least visiting these cities in the next year. If you were willing to handle NY for Columbia, I think it's quite possible Charlottesville, Durham, Austin, Chicago, Philly, or Ann Arbor.

Honestly even if each visit costs 1k, I'd argue that if it makes you aware of a new place that winds up giving you $$$, that money expended now to broaden your horizon is well spent! The vacation part is just a bonus.

QContinuum

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Re: Columbia or University of Connecticut?

Postby QContinuum » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:51 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
memo2 wrote:\I'm hoping to save up some money by working full-time while living with my parents (that may sound a bit lame, but whatever). I will definitely apply more broadly next time, and will also check out some other schools/cities when I get a chance. Thanks for your advice!


Not lame - great life choice! Don't let any idiotic judgment from people your age get to you.

Yes! Airbender's right. Spending prudently/saving money is absolutely the right call here. Don't give in to the peer pressure to shell out for your own apartment when you don't need to.

Necho2 wrote:Hey I really strongly urge you to spend that money on at least visiting these cities in the next year. If you were willing to handle NY for Columbia, I think it's quite possible Charlottesville, Durham, Austin, Chicago, Philly, or Ann Arbor.

Honestly even if each visit costs 1k, I'd argue that if it makes you aware of a new place that winds up giving you $$$, that money expended now to broaden your horizon is well spent! The vacation part is just a bonus.

I'm not sure visiting all those cities would be a wise use of money at this time. OP can apply early (by Halloween), and then sit back and wait for the offers to start rolling in. Then she can pick a select few top choices (based on which offers make the most sense) to travel to & visit (either as part of Admitted Students Day, or independently - admissions offices are very good about arranging ad hoc visits from admitted candidates).

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nealric

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Re: Columbia or University of Connecticut?

Postby nealric » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:33 am

QContinuum wrote:
Again, though, the best - objective - choice is almost certainly going to be a "lower" T13/T20 with lots of $$$. If you remain unwilling to attend school outside CT/NYC, then you might as well matriculate now to Columbia, because you aren't really going to get a better offer from them next cycle regardless of how high you crank up your LSAT.

cavalier1138 wrote:It's so rare to see a 0L make the right choice on this, so kudos to you.

With your GPA, even if you were able to bump your score up a point or two (or five), it wouldn't matter.


I agree an extra few points on the LSAT won't change much. However, I disagree that the objective best choice is a lower T13/T20 with money. Unpopular opinion, but I think young lawyers are overly focused on debt when you are talking about schools at this level.

I'm not suggesting the decision should be taken lightly by any means, but $200k is nothing over a 40 year career. Attending a T20 on a full ride opens the very real risk of missing the biglaw boat entirely, and potentially losing millions in lifetime earnings.

QContinuum

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Re: Columbia or University of Connecticut?

Postby QContinuum » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:03 pm

nealric wrote:I agree an extra few points on the LSAT won't change much. However, I disagree that the objective best choice is a lower T13/T20 with money. Unpopular opinion, but I think young lawyers are overly focused on debt when you are talking about schools at this level.

I'm not suggesting the decision should be taken lightly by any means, but $200k is nothing over a 40 year career. Attending a T20 on a full ride opens the very real risk of missing the biglaw boat entirely, and potentially losing millions in lifetime earnings.

I concur in part, to the extent that for OP's goals I would certainly recommend attending a T13 over a T20. Take MyLSN's predicted outcome of a $100k scholly at Mich, and a full-ride at WUSTL. If that was my best T13 offer and my best T20 offer, I'd take the Michigan offer any day and twice on Sunday.

That said, I don't think it hurts to apply to a few T20s (I suggested applying to 2-3 T20s) just to see how things shake out. In part that suggestion here is motivated by OP's apparent deathly fear of debt (which I do empathize with - not being sarcastic!). Recall, OP was willing to consider attending UConn in order to land a full scholly. If I can nudge someone willing to attend UConn over a T13 due to $ to instead attend WUSTL, I'm going to chalk that up as a TLS success.

To the extent that your post suggests that OP should attend Columbia at sticker over, say, Michigan with $100k, I respectfully disagree. Columbia/NYU do have an edge over the "lower" T13, but not to the tune of $100k. There are cases where that differential might be justifiable - say, Yale at sticker vs. Mich with $100k - but Columbia/NYU over Mich isn't such a case.

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nealric

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Re: Columbia or University of Connecticut?

Postby nealric » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:09 pm

QContinuum wrote:
nealric wrote:I agree an extra few points on the LSAT won't change much. However, I disagree that the objective best choice is a lower T13/T20 with money. Unpopular opinion, but I think young lawyers are overly focused on debt when you are talking about schools at this level.

I'm not suggesting the decision should be taken lightly by any means, but $200k is nothing over a 40 year career. Attending a T20 on a full ride opens the very real risk of missing the biglaw boat entirely, and potentially losing millions in lifetime earnings.

I concur in part, to the extent that for OP's goals I would certainly recommend attending a T13 over a T20. Take MyLSN's predicted outcome of a $100k scholly at Mich, and a full-ride at WUSTL. If that was my best T13 offer and my best T20 offer, I'd take the Michigan offer any day and twice on Sunday.

That said, I don't think it hurts to apply to a few T20s (I suggested applying to 2-3 T20s) just to see how things shake out. In part that suggestion here is motivated by OP's apparent deathly fear of debt (which I do empathize with - not being sarcastic!). Recall, OP was willing to consider attending UConn in order to land a full scholly. If I can nudge someone willing to attend UConn over a T13 due to $ to instead attend WUSTL, I'm going to chalk that up as a TLS success.

To the extent that your post suggests that OP should attend Columbia at sticker over, say, Michigan with $100k, I respectfully disagree. Columbia/NYU do have an edge over the "lower" T13, but not to the tune of $100k. There are cases where that differential might be justifiable - say, Yale at sticker vs. Mich with $100k - but Columbia/NYU over Mich isn't such a case.


I think Michigan with $100k vs CLS sticker is within the zone of reasonable minds can differ, but I'd still take CLS personally. I admit I'm biased because my spouse attended CLS, but I've seen subtle ways that it paid dividends in a way that Michigan (or equivalent) probably would not have. We did pay CLS sticker tuition (albeit mostly cashflow through my biglaw salary), and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

That being said, I don't think it's a terrible idea for OP to take some time off before starting law school. I think K-JD folks do miss out on some important experiences (especially when they go K-biglaw). It may make sense to ask for a deferral from CLS in order to keep it in the back pocket.

Necho2

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Re: Columbia or University of Connecticut?

Postby Necho2 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 4:30 pm

QContinuum wrote:
Necho2 wrote:Hey I really strongly urge you to spend that money on at least visiting these cities in the next year. If you were willing to handle NY for Columbia, I think it's quite possible Charlottesville, Durham, Austin, Chicago, Philly, or Ann Arbor.

Honestly even if each visit costs 1k, I'd argue that if it makes you aware of a new place that winds up giving you $$$, that money expended now to broaden your horizon is well spent! The vacation part is just a bonus.

I'm not sure visiting all those cities would be a wise use of money at this time. OP can apply early (by Halloween), and then sit back and wait for the offers to start rolling in. Then she can pick a select few top choices (based on which offers make the most sense) to travel to & visit (either as part of Admitted Students Day, or independently - admissions offices are very good about arranging ad hoc visits from admitted candidates).


Totally fair and logical, but this OP seems really hesitant to broaden their horizons, and I'd rather encourage them to visit at much as possible. It sounds like they tend to make snap judgments about where they'll be happy and stick to them, so if more travel helps them loosen up broadly, I think it's worth it. But putting it all off until the $$$ rolls in makes plenty of practical sense, I just thought seeing these places in a less time-sensitive (and potentially much better weather!) setting might be productive.

QContinuum

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Re: Columbia or University of Connecticut?

Postby QContinuum » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:19 pm

Necho2 wrote:Totally fair and logical, but this OP seems really hesitant to broaden their horizons, and I'd rather encourage them to visit at much as possible. It sounds like they tend to make snap judgments about where they'll be happy and stick to them, so if more travel helps them loosen up broadly, I think it's worth it. But putting it all off until the $$$ rolls in makes plenty of practical sense, I just thought seeing these places in a less time-sensitive (and potentially much better weather!) setting might be productive.

Very good point. OP's insistence on attending school in CT/NYC suggests they may have spent all their life in the greater NYC bubble. Traveling some more might go a long way to alleviating their reluctance to move further afield for law school.

I'm very sympathetic to OP - back in the day, I only applied to a limited number of law schools myself! - but, IMO, there's got to be a price at which objectivity overcomes personal preference. Personally, I'd be willing to shell out a few tens of thousands of dollars more to attend law school in my preferred city/state but if the difference was $100k+ - as MyLSN predicts for OP - then I think I would have been willing to suck it up and move.

Necho2

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Re: Columbia or University of Connecticut?

Postby Necho2 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:32 pm

QContinuum wrote:
Necho2 wrote:Totally fair and logical, but this OP seems really hesitant to broaden their horizons, and I'd rather encourage them to visit at much as possible. It sounds like they tend to make snap judgments about where they'll be happy and stick to them, so if more travel helps them loosen up broadly, I think it's worth it. But putting it all off until the $$$ rolls in makes plenty of practical sense, I just thought seeing these places in a less time-sensitive (and potentially much better weather!) setting might be productive.

Very good point. OP's insistence on attending school in CT/NYC suggests they may have spent all their life in the greater NYC bubble. Traveling some more might go a long way to alleviating their reluctance to move further afield for law school.

I'm very sympathetic to OP - back in the day, I only applied to a limited number of law schools myself! - but, IMO, there's got to be a price at which objectivity overcomes personal preference. Personally, I'd be willing to shell out a few tens of thousands of dollars more to attend law school in my preferred city/state but if the difference was $100k+ - as MyLSN predicts for OP - then I think I would have been willing to suck it up and move.

Agree completely. I wound up roughly 1750 miles from where my prior goal school, despite getting in there, and it was a wonderful decision.



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