Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school better meets my goals?

Columbia
2
17%
Chicago
9
75%
NYU
1
8%
 
Total votes: 12

Necho2

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby Necho2 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:20 am

JerseyState98 wrote:Wow it is actually crazy how helpful everyone has been; I really appreciate all of your insights.

One last thought. I guess I wanted to clarify my goals a little bit more and maybe that would help. There's certainly a decent part of me that thinks clerking would be super fun but even if thats true it would only be for a limited time of my life (you don't clerk forever). So I guess the point of doing a clerkship in mind would be to open up some doors that normally wouldn't be available to me if I had just done BL or at least give me a leg up for things like an AUSA type position or something regulatory. I know this also sounds like PI to some extent but I am more interested in the type of career where I spend big chunks of my time both in private practice but also doing more government style stuff (which on my understanding you need to focus on BL first).

To get even more basic my end goal is to make money and doing something worthwhile even if I have no idea exactly what that is. Sorry for rambling and again thanks so much for everything!

This is too vague for us to pick w/in CCN for you. If you want to jump back and forth, LRAP won't help you out much, so I'd say you should wait for your CLS/NYU $ and factor COA into the decision (I know this seems like stealth Chicago shilling b/c COL is lower, but think this is legitimately good advice w/ a vague career path like this!)

LBJ's Hair

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby LBJ's Hair » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:36 pm

BrainsyK wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:Is there empirical evidence that this is true? Off the top of my head, Cravath doesn't have a single Chicago student this summer. Paul, Weiss had like 1 or something in the 2016, and 20+ Columbia students, 30+ NYU students. The cutoff for both firms is ~top third. I'm sure students got offers, but it doesn't sound like very many. So if you're gonna make the case that "Chicago students have an easier time getting elite firm jobs with worse grades" I find it very strange that two of the V10 basically wrote the school off.

I'm not saying it's *hard* to get a NY BigLaw job from Chicago. I'm sure anyone from Chicago who wants it can do it. But the idea that it's *easier* to see is just...very odd, and at least doesn't comport with the actual #s people have put in the TLS threads over the years.


Chicago OCI threads suggest that 177(ish) is median and 178(ish) is anywhere from top 40% to ~33%. People posting bidlists w/178 are consistently told to bid Sullcrom, which tends to have pretty hard cutoffs at every school they visit.

Chicago Curve: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=114922&start=225#p3312669
178s Told to Bid Sullcrom: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=250014&start=75#p8706496; viewtopic.php?f=23&t=278998&start=25#p10089993

3.3(ish) at Columbia is median and 3.41, the Stone Scholar cutoff, is anywhere from top 40% to ~33%. People posting bidlists including Sullcrom w/3.4(ish) grades are typically told that Sullcrom has a pretty hard 3.6 cutoff.

Evidence for 3.6 sullcrom cutoff is on the other site and from being told by people who actually have gone through EIP. Actually, people mostly say 3.7.

That suggests to me that similar grades from the two schools generate different results.


OK, great, glad we cleared this up. You're very wrong though. The S&C "cutoff" is not a 3.7 at Columbia/NYU - that puts you in the top 5-10% of the class. That's where you're going into every interview that isn't W&C/WLRK/whatever knowing you're getting an offer unless you're an asshole to the interviewer. I know non-diverse K-JDs going to S&C with 3.5s from one Columbia/NYU - S&C makes 40+ offers a year at each of em. It's a great law firm with smart people, and I'm sure they have some sort of above-median rule at Columbia/NYU. That's about it.

The #s just don't support this theory that Chicago is "better" - which seems to be being advanced, unsurprisingly, by Chicago students/alums. To reiterate: OP should just go where he wants to live after graduation. If OP wants to be in the midwest, Chicago. New York, CLS/NYU. Or do visits? Chicago's big, CLS/NYU are small, etc. More Chicago students seem to be interested in clerking, as a general rule, than CLS/NYU students. I'm sure there are cultural differences.

Necho2

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby Necho2 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:15 pm

LBJ's Hair wrote:OK, great, glad we cleared this up. You're very wrong though. The S&C "cutoff" is not a 3.7 at Columbia/NYU - that puts you in the top 5-10% of the class. That's where you're going into every interview that isn't W&C/WLRK/whatever knowing you're getting an offer unless you're an asshole to the interviewer. I know non-diverse K-JDs going to S&C with 3.5s from one Columbia/NYU - S&C makes 40+ offers a year at each of em. It's a great law firm with smart people, and I'm sure they have some sort of above-median rule at Columbia/NYU. That's about it.

The #s just don't support this theory that Chicago is "better" - which seems to be being advanced, unsurprisingly, by Chicago students/alums. To reiterate: OP should just go where he wants to live after graduation. If OP wants to be in the midwest, Chicago. New York, CLS/NYU. Or do visits? Chicago's big, CLS/NYU are small, etc. More Chicago students seem to be interested in clerking, as a general rule, than CLS/NYU students. I'm sure there are cultural differences.


Totally defer to you on Columbia and biglaw cutoffs, but I'm not sure who you expect to weigh in on UChi--> NY other than Chicago students/alums. And the little callback data I have seems to back up strong enough UChi performance that I don't think NY biglaw employment should be much of a factor in this decision. From what you've described and the fact that mid-178 is competitive for S&C, it sounds like the same generally above-median grades work from both schools. Obviously since there's at least 10x the number of CLS/NYU students shooting for NY there'll be tons more at each firm (and maybe that has a slight long-term alum benefit?), but I don't think there clear grounds for this assertion.

Without being a "gotcha"— don't CLS/NYU have like 400-500 students per class? Chicago's about 200 so not sure where you're getting the size comments from. And again, geographic preferences during law school should matter, COA absolutely should matter, but I really don't think that a preference for NY biglaw long-term should really control here absent a preference to clerk exclusively in the 2nd Cir. (and less desire to clerk elsewhere) or a substantial cost difference.

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby LBJ's Hair » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:40 pm

Necho2 wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:OK, great, glad we cleared this up. You're very wrong though. The S&C "cutoff" is not a 3.7 at Columbia/NYU - that puts you in the top 5-10% of the class. That's where you're going into every interview that isn't W&C/WLRK/whatever knowing you're getting an offer unless you're an asshole to the interviewer. I know non-diverse K-JDs going to S&C with 3.5s from one Columbia/NYU - S&C makes 40+ offers a year at each of em. It's a great law firm with smart people, and I'm sure they have some sort of above-median rule at Columbia/NYU. That's about it.

The #s just don't support this theory that Chicago is "better" - which seems to be being advanced, unsurprisingly, by Chicago students/alums. To reiterate: OP should just go where he wants to live after graduation. If OP wants to be in the midwest, Chicago. New York, CLS/NYU. Or do visits? Chicago's big, CLS/NYU are small, etc. More Chicago students seem to be interested in clerking, as a general rule, than CLS/NYU students. I'm sure there are cultural differences.


Totally defer to you on Columbia and biglaw cutoffs, but I'm not sure who you expect to weigh in on UChi--> NY other than Chicago students/alums. And the little callback data I have seems to back up strong enough UChi performance that I don't think NY biglaw employment should be much of a factor in this decision. From what you've described and the fact that mid-178 is competitive for S&C, it sounds like the same generally above-median grades work from both schools. Obviously since there's at least 10x the number of CLS/NYU students shooting for NY there'll be tons more at each firm (and maybe that has a slight long-term alum benefit?), but I don't think there clear grounds for this assertion.

Without being a "gotcha"— don't CLS/NYU have like 400-500 students per class? Chicago's about 200 so not sure where you're getting the size comments from. And again, geographic preferences during law school should matter, COA absolutely should matter, but I really don't think that a preference for NY biglaw long-term should really control here absent a preference to clerk exclusively in the 2nd Cir. (and less desire to clerk elsewhere) or a substantial cost difference.


Typo RE size, that's my bad

I'm slightly confused here. My position is that OP should base his decision on where he wants to live after graduation, cost, class size, and culture, because the schools are all great and aren't any different from one another in terms of outcomes. Basically do whatever ever feels right, can't go wrong.

Your position is that he should go to Chicago because meaningfully better in...what? For NY BigLaw, we've established that it's at best a wash for Chicago, and potentially a net negative, given the paucity of Chicago alumni presence. Is this the clerkship thing? I'm not really convinced there's some sort of Chicago "special sauce" in this area - think it has much more to do with geographic flexibility, as I've stated earlier. Like clerking in non-competitive district courts is do-able from any T6 with top 30% grades - it's not a reason to go to Chicago if someone would otherwise prefer NYU.

For example, here's UVA's data. Great school, good clerkship rates - that are driven mostly by geographic flexibility among the student body. I don't think you would say that an NYU student or Columbia student is disadvantaged compared to a UVA student applying for a district court clerkship in Florida. https://www.law.virginia.edu/clerkships ... s-location

Necho2

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby Necho2 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:57 pm

LBJ's Hair wrote:Typo RE size, that's my bad

I'm slightly confused here. My position is that OP should base his decision on where he wants to live after graduation, cost, class size, and culture, because the schools are all great and aren't any different from one another in terms of outcomes. Basically do whatever ever feels right, can't go wrong.

Your position is that he should go to Chicago because meaningfully better in...what? For NY BigLaw, we've established that it's at best a wash for Chicago, and potentially a net negative, given the paucity of Chicago alumni presence. Is this the clerkship thing? I'm not really convinced there's some sort of Chicago "special sauce" in this area - think it has much more to do with geographic flexibility, as I've stated earlier. Like clerking in non-competitive district courts is do-able from any T6 with top 30% grades - it's not a reason to go to Chicago if someone would otherwise prefer NYU.

For example, here's UVA's data. Great school, good clerkship rates - that are driven mostly by geographic flexibility among the student body. I don't think you would say that an NYU student or Columbia student is disadvantaged compared to a UVA student applying for a district court clerkship in Florida. https://www.law.virginia.edu/clerkships ... s-location


Yeah I don't really disagree at all with that advice, I'm only pushing back against the idea that if you want to wind up in NY Biglaw, CLS over UChi is an easy pick based on employment outcomes. The only reason I (throwing $$ and geographic preferences out the window, which I don't think he should actually do!) was pushing back was that OP had mentioned clerking and I really do think the gap is large enough that if OP values a clerkship (rather than specifically a 2nd Cir. one) strongly, going to the place w/ a much higher rate, even if there's all sorts of explanations for it (culture, geography, etc.) makes a ton of sense. I get and agree generally with your underlying point about top third+ grads w/ geographic flexibility having a very good chance at a clerkship across CCN, I just tend to think the gap's large enough to tease out an increased probability of that outcome happening.

Yulilo

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby Yulilo » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:12 am

Necho2 wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:Typo RE size, that's my bad

I'm slightly confused here. My position is that OP should base his decision on where he wants to live after graduation, cost, class size, and culture, because the schools are all great and aren't any different from one another in terms of outcomes. Basically do whatever ever feels right, can't go wrong.

Your position is that he should go to Chicago because meaningfully better in...what? For NY BigLaw, we've established that it's at best a wash for Chicago, and potentially a net negative, given the paucity of Chicago alumni presence. Is this the clerkship thing? I'm not really convinced there's some sort of Chicago "special sauce" in this area - think it has much more to do with geographic flexibility, as I've stated earlier. Like clerking in non-competitive district courts is do-able from any T6 with top 30% grades - it's not a reason to go to Chicago if someone would otherwise prefer NYU.

For example, here's UVA's data. Great school, good clerkship rates - that are driven mostly by geographic flexibility among the student body. I don't think you would say that an NYU student or Columbia student is disadvantaged compared to a UVA student applying for a district court clerkship in Florida. https://www.law.virginia.edu/clerkships ... s-location


Yeah I don't really disagree at all with that advice, I'm only pushing back against the idea that if you want to wind up in NY Biglaw, CLS over UChi is an easy pick based on employment outcomes. The only reason I (throwing $$ and geographic preferences out the window, which I don't think he should actually do!) was pushing back was that OP had mentioned clerking and I really do think the gap is large enough that if OP values a clerkship (rather than specifically a 2nd Cir. one) strongly, going to the place w/ a much higher rate, even if there's all sorts of explanations for it (culture, geography, etc.) makes a ton of sense. I get and agree generally with your underlying point about top third+ grads w/ geographic flexibility having a very good chance at a clerkship across CCN, I just tend to think the gap's large enough to tease out an increased probability of that outcome happening.



As an NYU student I agree with LBJ that the trope about UChicago placing better into NYC biglaw than CLS/NYU is absurd. The schools produce similar outcomes, though I have heard from a friend at Chicago that NYC firms have started to look for candidates with a strong "why NYC" story. This seems to cut against the argument that V10 firms are so desperate for Chicago students that they're willing to hire down to median. Moreover, if OP or other students in this position have any desire to do corporate restructuring, the top debtor side shop,(Weil Gotshal), doesn't recruit at Chicago anymore.

For Clerkships, I would agree with Necho that Chicago is probably a better bet ceteris paribus. I only say this because: (1) The school is smaller and will make it easier to connect with faculty, and (2) Their clerkship office is better,(This is probably the biggest gripe my friends uptown have about their school). Obvious caveat is if OP is dead set on 2nd Cir./SDNY/EDNY which in that case points squarely towards CLS/NYU.

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby Necho2 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:54 pm

Yulilo wrote:As an NYU student I agree with LBJ that the trope about UChicago placing better into NYC biglaw than CLS/NYU is absurd. The schools produce similar outcomes, though I have heard from a friend at Chicago that NYC firms have started to look for candidates with a strong "why NYC" story. This seems to cut against the argument that V10 firms are so desperate for Chicago students that they're willing to hire down to median. Moreover, if OP or other students in this position have any desire to do corporate restructuring, the top debtor side shop,(Weil Gotshal), doesn't recruit at Chicago anymore.

For Clerkships, I would agree with Necho that Chicago is probably a better bet ceteris paribus. I only say this because: (1) The school is smaller and will make it easier to connect with faculty, and (2) Their clerkship office is better,(This is probably the biggest gripe my friends uptown have about their school). Obvious caveat is if OP is dead set on 2nd Cir./SDNY/EDNY which in that case points squarely towards CLS/NYU.


Fully agree, I'm only pushing that they're all equal enough that other considerations should drive the ultimate choice. Really surprised to hear "why NYC" even anecdotally b/c it's NYC, that's everyone's story... The point on Weil is a good practice note, but I assume you mean on-campus interviews rather than recruiting more generally?

I don't think anyone loves their clerkship office, but UChi faculty are definitely good and motivated on that front, and the small size probably helps that stuff happen organically.

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:28 pm

The 9mo out clerkship figures reported here that show 15% or so for Chi and 5% for CLS are useless. The majority of Columbia students that clerk do so >9 months out from graduation (and a large % of the HLS kids that clerk are in the same boat) and are therefore not captured by that datapoint. For example, 16% of Columbia students from C/O 2016 have now completed or are finishing a federal clerkship (as opposed to whatever the reported percentage is). To obtain accurate data, reach out to the clerkship offices themselves.

The reasons for that statistical variance are myriad, but one of them is purely how far advanced the number one destination for Columbia students is now hiring. Many SDNY and second circuit judges are now hiring so far out that someone starting law school in fall of 2019 could not, no matter how qualified or desirable, clerk in that chambers in fall 2022 because those judges will have hired for that term before those students have received 1L grades. The era of clerking right out of law school is largely dead unless you are willing to do so in a generally less competitive location. No idea why ABA has yet to correct for this; the legal industry is slow moving.

Chances at a competitive clerkship is equal from a Chicago or Columbia. The two schools are considered peers. Happy to discuss clerkships with anyone over DM who is interested.

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby The Lsat Airbender » Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:26 am

jbagelboy wrote:No idea why ABA has yet to correct for this; the legal industry is slow moving.


The ABA cares less about the preftige contest of fedclerk percentages and more about having accurate employment data for the benefit of applicants. Clerkship numbers at graduation are a means to that latter end - federal clerkships should definitely count in the numerator of quality jobs per graduate.

I agree with you that we can't infer a huge difference between Chicago and Columbia (or NYU for that matter) based on the data we have. The only reasonable assumption is that Columbia probably has an edge in the 2nd Circuit and Chicago in the 7th.

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby Yulilo » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:02 am

Necho2 wrote:
Yulilo wrote:As an NYU student I agree with LBJ that the trope about UChicago placing better into NYC biglaw than CLS/NYU is absurd. The schools produce similar outcomes, though I have heard from a friend at Chicago that NYC firms have started to look for candidates with a strong "why NYC" story. This seems to cut against the argument that V10 firms are so desperate for Chicago students that they're willing to hire down to median. Moreover, if OP or other students in this position have any desire to do corporate restructuring, the top debtor side shop,(Weil Gotshal), doesn't recruit at Chicago anymore.

For Clerkships, I would agree with Necho that Chicago is probably a better bet ceteris paribus. I only say this because: (1) The school is smaller and will make it easier to connect with faculty, and (2) Their clerkship office is better,(This is probably the biggest gripe my friends uptown have about their school). Obvious caveat is if OP is dead set on 2nd Cir./SDNY/EDNY which in that case points squarely towards CLS/NYU.


Fully agree, I'm only pushing that they're all equal enough that other considerations should drive the ultimate choice. Really surprised to hear "why NYC" even anecdotally b/c it's NYC, that's everyone's story... The point on Weil is a good practice note, but I assume you mean on-campus interviews rather than recruiting more generally?

I don't think anyone loves their clerkship office, but UChi faculty are definitely good and motivated on that front, and the small size probably helps that stuff happen organically.



Yeah I was talking about OCI. You could always mail in a resume to Weil, but it’s not ideal. My friend’s point about NYC ties is that so many UChicago students see NYC as a back up that a lot of interviewers are skeptical that the student would really take them over, say, Sidley or K&E Chicago. I don’t know if that has any material impact on a student’s chances,(doubt it), but it’s datapoint worthy of consideration. Like LBJ said, if you want to be in NYC, go to CLS or NYU. If Chicago, UChicago all the way.

One final note: OP and others in the same position should also consider the power of alumni connections/law school relationships. One great advantage of going to CLS or NYU is that most of the class will be starting their careers in the city. If you want NYC, it’s great because you have a massive alumni base and most of your good friends from law school will likely be around for at least a couple of years.

If you go to UChicago and are dead set on NYC, Realize that: (1) the alumni base is very small and (2) there is a good chance that most of the people you become close with in law school will go someplace other than NYC. One may think that this is immaterial, but biglaw is a grueling and often lonely experience, which makes having an established support/friend group very important.



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