Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school better meets my goals?

Columbia
2
14%
Chicago
11
79%
NYU
1
7%
 
Total votes: 14

JerseyState98

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Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby JerseyState98 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:33 pm

Hey all,

So I get HYS is just much better for elite clerkships than the rest of the T14, but given that I did not get into them (LOL) what are your thoughts on clerkship potential for CCN (accepted to all 3)?

On the surface, Chicago seems to have much better placement data as they place like 25% at federal clerkships and Columbia has some very low number like less than 5%. However, Columbia also seems to list some impressive clerkships (150 appeals and 8 SC since 2018), seems to have connections with SDNY, and I imagine a ton of that is a lot of self-selection (just because everyone at Columbia wants BL doesn't mean they are bad at getting clerkships).

I guess where I am coming from is that I have two strong interests that seem to be split between the schools. I absolutely would LOVE an elite clerkship (maybe Chicago better) but I also would like to do a clerkship first, then work in BL in NYC (deff Columbia better for this aspect) for some time and then move to be like an AUSA / Regulatory Org / DOJ or something and see what that's like (with obviously the option to go back to BL after, still pref in NYC).

So I guess given my NYC pref, I am trying to find ways to tell myself that Columbia clerks as well as Chicago so I have the best of both worlds of elite NYC BL placement and an option to clerk at a really cool place.

Any thoughts on this matter would be much appreciated. Oh and I applied so late that I have $ from Uchi but pending at the other two.

Also to be honest I know nothing about NYU whatsoever.

I thought I could post sources here as images but I guess you can't, I can link if people are curious for some of the numbers I cited.

Let me know what you think!

LaChusa2020

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby LaChusa2020 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:52 am

The idea of Columbia v Chicago for some marginal clerkship advantage is typical TLS nonsense. If you want to practice in Chicago pick Chicago, if you want to practice in New York pick Columbia, if you’re fine in either or want a third market where you have ties pick whichever is cheapest/you like better. Good grades at chi or cls will make you competitive for any clerkship, average grades at either you still probably can get a clerkship, maybe even a quite competitive one. If you’re looking for permission to go to Columbia because that’s what you want, you should do it. These schools are peers and the marginal (and unclear) placement differences should not be decisive.

cavalier1138

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:36 am

Don't go anywhere based on "elite clerkship" chances. Even if there were a reliable way of figuring that out, you still have to be at the top of your class to stand a chance.

In general, this is a bad way to go about things. A clerkship is a one-year job that will be accessible from any of these schools. If your goal is bigfed (although frankly, your goal just seems to be to rack up as many prestige points as possible), all three schools will give you a good shot at it. So the answer is the school that's going to cost the least. Once you aren't waiting on offers from Columbia/NYU, you'll be in a better position to answer this question.

nixy

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby nixy » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:41 am

LaChusa2020 wrote:The idea of Columbia v Chicago for some marginal clerkship advantage is typical TLS nonsense. If you want to practice in Chicago pick Chicago, if you want to practice in New York pick Columbia, if you’re fine in either or want a third market where you have ties pick whichever is cheapest/you like better. Good grades at chi or cls will make you competitive for any clerkship, average grades at either you still probably can get a clerkship, maybe even a quite competitive one. If you’re looking for permission to go to Columbia because that’s what you want, you should do it. These schools are peers and the marginal (and unclear) placement differences should not be decisive.

^ this.

LBJ's Hair

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby LBJ's Hair » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:52 am

Columbia has much lower clerkship numbers than Chicago generally but empirically, the students that do clerk are disproportionately in EDNY/SDNY/Second Circuit, which are three of the most competitive clerkships in the country. There are some alumni connections, but this has always suggested to me that the school isn't like, at a disadvantage compared to Chicago, but rather living in NY really turns off otherwise-competitive students from applying to, say, the 6th Circuit. NYU's numbers are similar.

Chicago students are much more geographically flexible - you'll see them in the 5th, 6th, 8th, etc - and as anyone on this board will tell you, the key to getting a clerkship is applying to a lot of judges. (Same seems to be true of HLS - there's a slight name bump, but it's not like median HLS students are regularly picking up SDNY.)

TL;DR, if you want to be in NYC, go to CLS or NYU. You'll be fine.

hlsperson1111

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby hlsperson1111 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:29 pm

For what it's worth, I think there's a good amount of self-section - many of the people who pick Chicago over Columbia/NYU are people who put more stock in clerking, while many of the people who pick Columbia/NYU over Chicago just want to get a job in NYC biglaw.

JerseyState98

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby JerseyState98 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:58 pm

So I guess what you are saying is that if I am above median I can hopefully clerk but if I am below median at these places I won't be able to clerk anyway?

QContinuum

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby QContinuum » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:16 pm

JerseyState98 wrote:So I guess what you are saying is that if I am above median I can hopefully clerk but if I am below median at these places I won't be able to clerk anyway?

You'd ideally want to be above median to have a strong shot at any of HCCN, but still possible from below median with enough hustle and faculty support (and willingness to be geographically flexible and consider "less prestigious" clerkships like, say, DConn or DNJ or NDNY).

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:12 am

QContinuum wrote:
JerseyState98 wrote:So I guess what you are saying is that if I am above median I can hopefully clerk but if I am below median at these places I won't be able to clerk anyway?

You'd ideally want to be above median to have a strong shot at any of HCCN, but still possible from below median with enough hustle and faculty support (and willingness to be geographically flexible and consider "less prestigious" clerkships like, say, DConn or DNJ or NDNY).


This. And if your goals are "feeder" clerkships or appellate clerkships in more competitive circuits (I'm basing this on your OP's reference to "elite" clerkships), those are still reserved for the top of the class at any school. A median student at CCN isn't going to get DC Circuit. For that matter, a median student at Harvard isn't going to get DC Circuit. So don't get your heart set on the "elite" part of your clerkship goals.

Necho2

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby Necho2 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:25 am

Everyone's right about the general clerkship prospects (and grades/feeder chances in particular), but I don't really think a 5:1 ratio can totally be chalked up to self-selection by CLS students. CA2/SDNY is definitely competitive and prefers experience, but that's a pretty huge gap to make up.

Getting NY from Chicago is also not particularly difficult at all, and unless there's some part of "elite NYC biglaw" that doesn't start w/ WLRK, I really wouldn't fixate on Columbia's advantages there. $$$ and geographic preferences for your time in school should probably drive this, but not going to Chicago because you're worried about biglaw prospects in NY is a little silly. My vague memory from OCI is that Cravath needs above-median, but not that far grades, Skadden dips to slightly above median, and plenty of big-name NY firms are in play around our (very fuzzy) median.

JerseyState98

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby JerseyState98 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:14 am

Oh wow, this has been helpful thank you so much!

Given the above, do you think it is easier to be above median at any of these places? I know that schools have different grading policies and that these policies can affect your median status or just make things fuzzy around the medians. Any strong thoughts on this?

jsnow212

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby jsnow212 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:03 pm

Necho2 wrote:Everyone's right about the general clerkship prospects (and grades/feeder chances in particular), but I don't really think a 5:1 ratio can totally be chalked up to self-selection by CLS students. CA2/SDNY is definitely competitive and prefers experience, but that's a pretty huge gap to make up.

Getting NY from Chicago is also not particularly difficult at all, and unless there's some part of "elite NYC biglaw" that doesn't start w/ WLRK, I really wouldn't fixate on Columbia's advantages there. $$$ and geographic preferences for your time in school should probably drive this, but not going to Chicago because you're worried about biglaw prospects in NY is a little silly. My vague memory from OCI is that Cravath needs above-median, but not that far grades, Skadden dips to slightly above median, and plenty of big-name NY firms are in play around our (very fuzzy) median.


Perhaps it's not totally self-selection, but it explains a large/in-not-vast majority of the difference. If only 25% of the class is interested in (because CLS/NYU students perhaps trend more heavily toward transaction work than other schools) and meet the grade-requirements of a FC and 90% of them apply to only 2-4 competitive districts (because the thinking out of CLS/NYU is resoundingly "I'd rather not clerk than go to a non-SDNY/EDNY/etc. court"), you're looking at very low FC placement rate post-graduation.

But, perhaps that supports attending Chicago if one is truly interested in clerkships. The culture surrounding FCs at Chicago emphasizes the "apply broadly and everyone who is qualified to get one should seriously apply" approach that garners much greater success for the student-body as a whole.

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby BrainsyK » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:14 pm

JerseyState98 wrote:Oh wow, this has been helpful thank you so much!

Given the above, do you think it is easier to be above median at any of these places? I know that schools have different grading policies and that these policies can affect your median status or just make things fuzzy around the medians. Any strong thoughts on this?


I think Chicago ranks. Columbia doesn't so it might give a tiny bit of flexibility. I think mid-3.2 to 3.4, which is right below the honors cutoff are treated similarly for the most part. The easiest way to parse a transcript is to look for honors so if you miss that, most people are looking for "meh" to "disaster" and below mid-3.2, it starts to look closer to disaster.

My personal stance is that if you type fast, know how to write law school exams generally, outline and review early, don't get tangled up in 94 different clubs, and do and review the practice tests you're given with a decent level of diligence, it's pretty hard to get below median. There's like 20-30% of the class that just aren't trying that hard so you're really only looking to beat out 20%-30% of the class to get a B+, which puts you at median. I discovered that I missed about 25% of criminal law that I didn't even know existed an hour before the actual exam and got a B+ anyway.

The most important thing is to know what you're doing from the get go. You don't have to be good at doing it. You just have to know that you need to do it. When you don't know what you're doing, it's very easy to sink into a mode where you treat 1L like college, which most people smart enough to get here probably dominated with minimal effort. Before you know it, half your credits are are Bs for you and you need to be world-class just to touch median.

Then again, I've met people who were below median who felt very differently about how difficult median is. I'd wager most probably didn't know what they're doing from the get go, but shit happens. Relatives die. Relationships end.

That said, I'd go to Chicago--unless lay prestige is your thing. COL is cheaper. If theories about self-selection are true--and there's basically no way to prove that they are--Columbia is similar, but why possibly on par over demonstrated track record? You can get better firms with similar grades from Chicago. Going from Chicago to NYC biglaw is easy. Columbia to Chicago biglaw is significantly less so. Columbia isn't a worse school by any means in terms of reputation, but the size of the student body dilutes placement power.

QContinuum

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby QContinuum » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:20 pm

BrainsyK wrote:You can get better firms with similar grades from Chicago. Going from Chicago to NYC biglaw is easy. Columbia to Chicago biglaw is significantly less so.

I think that's misleading. Going from Chicago to Chicago BigLaw is also significantly less easy than going from Chicago to NYC BigLaw. This is because Chicago is simply a much smaller market with many fewer firms, and even the firms that are there don't take nearly as many summers each as the large New York offices take.

Using the same logic above, you could say, equally misleadingly, "going from Georgetown to NYC biglaw is easy. Columbia to D.C. biglaw is significantly less so."

In fact, I've actually heard tell of Columbia/NYU students having a slightly easier time landing Chicago BigLaw than Chicago students, simply due to how many fewer Columbia/NYU students target Chicago. (Firms always like having a bit of school "diversity" in their classes.)

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby BrainsyK » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:32 pm

QContinuum wrote:
BrainsyK wrote:You can get better firms with similar grades from Chicago. Going from Chicago to NYC biglaw is easy. Columbia to Chicago biglaw is significantly less so.

I think that's misleading. Going from Chicago to Chicago BigLaw is also significantly less easy than going from Chicago to NYC BigLaw. This is because Chicago is simply a much smaller market with many fewer firms, and even the firms that are there don't take nearly as many summers each as the large New York offices take.

Using the same logic above, you could say, equally misleadingly, "going from Georgetown to NYC biglaw is easy. Columbia to D.C. biglaw is significantly less so."

In fact, I've actually heard tell of Columbia/NYU students having a slightly easier time landing Chicago BigLaw than Chicago students, simply due to how many fewer Columbia/NYU students target Chicago. (Firms always like having a bit of school "diversity" in their classes.)


Yeah, I'll cede to that. It's hard to prove either way but it may very not be true that Chicago-->Chicago is a cakewalk.

BrainsyK wrote:I discovered that I missed about 25% of criminal law that I didn't even know existed an hour before the actual exam and got a B+ anyway.


K. I realize this sounds braggy, but to be clear, I am nowhere near the brightest bulb on the tree here. The point is just that getting median is not terribly difficult by any means with consistent effort and a good battle plan.

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby LBJ's Hair » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:59 pm

BrainsyK wrote:
JerseyState98 wrote:Oh wow, this has been helpful thank you so much!

That said, I'd go to Chicago--unless lay prestige is your thing. COL is cheaper. If theories about self-selection are true--and there's basically no way to prove that they are--Columbia is similar, but why possibly on par over demonstrated track record? You can get better firms with similar grades from Chicago. Going from Chicago to NYC biglaw is easy. Columbia to Chicago biglaw is significantly less so. Columbia isn't a worse school by any means in terms of reputation, but the size of the student body dilutes placement power.


Is there empirical evidence that this is true? Off the top of my head, Cravath doesn't have a single Chicago student this summer. Paul, Weiss had like 1 or something in the 2016, and 20+ Columbia students, 30+ NYU students. The cutoff for both firms is ~top third. I'm sure students got offers, but it doesn't sound like very many. So if you're gonna make the case that "Chicago students have an easier time getting elite firm jobs with worse grades" I find it very strange that two of the V10 basically wrote the school off.

I'm not saying it's *hard* to get a NY BigLaw job from Chicago. I'm sure anyone from Chicago who wants it can do it. But the idea that it's *easier* to see is just...very odd, and at least doesn't comport with the actual #s people have put in the TLS threads over the years.

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby BrainsyK » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:32 pm

LBJ's Hair wrote:Is there empirical evidence that this is true? Off the top of my head, Cravath doesn't have a single Chicago student this summer. Paul, Weiss had like 1 or something in the 2016, and 20+ Columbia students, 30+ NYU students. The cutoff for both firms is ~top third. I'm sure students got offers, but it doesn't sound like very many. So if you're gonna make the case that "Chicago students have an easier time getting elite firm jobs with worse grades" I find it very strange that two of the V10 basically wrote the school off.

I'm not saying it's *hard* to get a NY BigLaw job from Chicago. I'm sure anyone from Chicago who wants it can do it. But the idea that it's *easier* to see is just...very odd, and at least doesn't comport with the actual #s people have put in the TLS threads over the years.


Chicago OCI threads suggest that 177(ish) is median and 178(ish) is anywhere from top 40% to ~33%. People posting bidlists w/178 are consistently told to bid Sullcrom, which tends to have pretty hard cutoffs at every school they visit.

Chicago Curve: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=114922&start=225#p3312669
178s Told to Bid Sullcrom: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=250014&start=75#p8706496; viewtopic.php?f=23&t=278998&start=25#p10089993

3.3(ish) at Columbia is median and 3.41, the Stone Scholar cutoff, is anywhere from top 40% to ~33%. People posting bidlists including Sullcrom w/3.4(ish) grades are typically told that Sullcrom has a pretty hard 3.6 cutoff.

Evidence for 3.6 sullcrom cutoff is on the other site and from being told by people who actually have gone through EIP. Actually, people mostly say 3.7.

That suggests to me that similar grades from the two schools generate different results.

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby QContinuum » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:50 pm

BrainsyK wrote:Chicago OCI threads suggest that 177(ish) is median and 178(ish) is anywhere from top 40% to ~33%. People posting bidlists w/178 are consistently told to bid Sullcrom, which tends to have pretty hard cutoffs at every school they visit.

Chicago Curve: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=114922&start=225#p3312669
178s Told to Bid Sullcrom: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=250014&start=75#p8706496; viewtopic.php?f=23&t=278998&start=25#p10089993

Perhaps we could get a current Chicago TLSer to comment on the above. The cited thread for 178 being top 40-33% dates from 2010 and the posters admit to A) using guesswork and B) drawing inferences based on even earlier data provided to visiting faculty.

Also, I don't think that second thread of yours - at least the page you cited - suggests "178s Told to Bid Sullcrom." What I saw was a single 178+ person who had Sullcrom ranked pretty far down their bidlist, who was told to move it up to avoid the risk of losing out on landing a screener. I didn't see anything to suggest that 178+ was competitive for Sullcrom. (Maybe you draw that as an implied inference ("if a 178 wasn't competitive, they'd have been told to knock Sullcrom off their bidlist, and that advice wasn't given!") but I'd be wary of reading so much into TLS posts - at least equally possible the responders in that thread simply noted Sullcrom's position on the bidlist and completely ignored OP's likelihood of making it past screener.)

BrainsyK wrote:Actually, people mostly say 3.7.

I've heard a number of Sullcrom rumours over the years and whilst obviously Sullcrom is grade-selective, I've never heard of a 3.7 cutoff for either Columbia or NYU.

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby JerseyState98 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:21 pm

Wow this took off! I was super surprised to hear someone argue that Chicago could actually place better in NYC then Columbia for BL. Every alumni I’ve spoke to said that Columbia’s NYHV BL placement is the top of CCN and rivals HYS. My main concner wa s more that I wanted more than BL but this a knew wrench.


Can anyone smarter than me better parse out the data above?

JerseyState98

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby JerseyState98 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:39 pm

BrainsyK wrote:
LBJ's Hair wrote:Is there empirical evidence that this is true? Off the top of my head, Cravath doesn't have a single Chicago student this summer. Paul, Weiss had like 1 or something in the 2016, and 20+ Columbia students, 30+ NYU students. The cutoff for both firms is ~top third. I'm sure students got offers, but it doesn't sound like very many. So if you're gonna make the case that "Chicago students have an easier time getting elite firm jobs with worse grades" I find it very strange that two of the V10 basically wrote the school off.

I'm not saying it's *hard* to get a NY BigLaw job from Chicago. I'm sure anyone from Chicago who wants it can do it. But the idea that it's *easier* to see is just...very odd, and at least doesn't comport with the actual #s people have put in the TLS threads over the years.


Chicago OCI threads suggest that 177(ish) is median and 178(ish) is anywhere from top 40% to ~33%. People posting bidlists w/178 are consistently told to bid Sullcrom, which tends to have pretty hard cutoffs at every school they visit.

Chicago Curve: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=114922&start=225#p3312669
178s Told to Bid Sullcrom: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=250014&start=75#p8706496; viewtopic.php?f=23&t=278998&start=25#p10089993

3.3(ish) at Columbia is median and 3.41, the Stone Scholar cutoff, is anywhere from top 40% to ~33%. People posting bidlists including Sullcrom w/3.4(ish) grades are typically told that Sullcrom has a pretty hard 3.6 cutoff.

Evidence for 3.6 sullcrom cutoff is on the other site and from being told by people who actually have gone through EIP. Actually, people mostly say 3.7.

That suggests to me that similar grades from the two schools generate different results.


Also I don't understand a lot of terminology in this post. What is a 177 in this context? Is Sullscrom just a top BL firm?

Thanks so much!

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby QContinuum » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:47 pm

JerseyState98 wrote:Wow this took off! I was super surprised to hear someone argue that Chicago could actually place better in NYC then Columbia for BL. Every alumni I’ve spoke to said that Columbia’s NYHV BL placement is the top of CCN and rivals HYS. My main concner wa s more that I wanted more than BL but this a knew wrench.

Each of CCN is tremendously strong, but each has a specialty where they're the strongest. Chicago is strongest at clerkships and academia. Columbia is strongest at BigLaw. NYU is strongest at public interest. They're all still strong in other areas as well - e.g., NYU's still very strong for BigLaw, as is Chicago. But it's not their "main claim to fame," if you will.

IMO, if you look at each CCN's specialty, they're actually stronger than Harvard at that specialty. For instance, NYU is commonly said to be second only to Yale in its public interest placement. And yes, Columbia has stronger BigLaw connections than Harvard. Chicago's posted clerkship numbers significantly outpace Harvard's.

Now, of course, Harvard's strength is that overall it's tremendously strong across the board and has a huge faculty. So on net, Harvard's still a hair above CCN (though some Chicagoans have been disputing that as of late!), even though Harvard doesn't always win in each "specialty" contest.

All this talk aside, each of HCCN is plenty strong enough across the board that differences in strength in a particular area really shouldn't dictate which school you choose. It comes down to finances and, if approximately equal, then to personal preference.

JerseyState98 wrote:Also I don't understand a lot of terminology in this post. What is a 177 in this context? Is Sullscrom just a top BL firm?

Thanks so much!

Chicago has a weird numeric grading system instead of the more traditional letter grades. (Columbia and NYU use traditional letter grades.) So instead of, say, having a GPA of 3.x, you'd have a triple-digit "GPA," like the 177 mentioned above.

You will soon learn that there is a "ranking" of prestigious BigLaw firms that roughly serves the same function as USNWR for law schools. (This is how prestige-obsessed lawyers are...) It's called Vault, and folks on here will talk about "V10," "V20," etc. firms as a rough proxy for prestige. Sullcrom is a "V10" firm (currently ranked #4, IIRC), and is especially known for being grade-selective. (All of the "V10/V20" are grade-selective, but not all to the same extent. Skadden, at #3, is known to be relatively more flexible than many of its "V10" peers.)

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby Necho2 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:19 pm

This is a few years out of date, but I dredged up the callback data OCI offered from the year prior to my OCI included 25/75 percentile figures for callbacks on a firm office basis. For 25ths at the time, Skadden NY dipped into the 176s, S&C's was in the mid-178 range, and Cravath and Cleary were in the high-178 average range. Obviously these will skew high since people w/ high grades will get lots of callbacks, but I think the 25ths are fairly decent guides to where students might be competitive.

Also anecdotally, my summer I believe WLRK had substantially more people than Cravath, and that Skadden and STB were tops overall in total numbers. I think things might skew quite a bit from year to year since no more than about a quarter of the class winds up in NY?

jsnow212 wrote:
Perhaps it's not totally self-selection, but it explains a large/in-not-vast majority of the difference. If only 25% of the class is interested in (because CLS/NYU students perhaps trend more heavily toward transaction work than other schools) and meet the grade-requirements of a FC and 90% of them apply to only 2-4 competitive districts (because the thinking out of CLS/NYU is resoundingly "I'd rather not clerk than go to a non-SDNY/EDNY/etc. court"), you're looking at very low FC placement rate post-graduation.

But, perhaps that supports attending Chicago if one is truly interested in clerkships. The culture surrounding FCs at Chicago emphasizes the "apply broadly and everyone who is qualified to get one should seriously apply" approach that garners much greater success for the student-body as a whole.


Wow I did not know CLS/NYU skewed so strongly towards transactional work relative to the rest of the T14! If they also really strongly prefer to only clerk within the 2nd Circuit, that would certainly skew these numbers dramatically, though I agree that depending on OP's preferences that kind of clerkship culture might also make a difference and push towards UChicago. I'm pretty sure CLS/NYU probably offers stronger connections to the best 2nd Circuit judges (how could they not?) so if the preference trend for OP is expressly focused on clerking in NY-->BL in NY, that's a point in their favor. But if it's more clerking and then winding up at a great NY firm, I would still push back against a narrative that CLS offers objectively superior outcomes.

Also as an FYI (if my weird numbers at the top of the post don't make this clear) Chicago doesn't rank and has a strange 16X-186 grading scale that makes things even tougher, though I suspect most BL firms are perfectly capable of creating a macro to calculate GPAs based off regardless...

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby jsnow212 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:14 am

Necho2 wrote:
I'm pretty sure CLS/NYU probably offers stronger connections to the best 2nd Circuit judges (how could they not?) so if the preference trend for OP is expressly focused on clerking in NY-->BL in NY, that's a point in their favor. But if it's more clerking and then winding up at a great NY firm, I would still push back against a narrative that CLS offers objectively superior outcomes.

Also as an FYI (if my weird numbers at the top of the post don't make this clear) Chicago doesn't rank and has a strange 16X-186 grading scale that makes things even tougher, though I suspect most BL firms are perfectly capable of creating a macro to calculate GPAs based off regardless...


Agree with the bold. If OP is deadest on clerkship-or-bust, UChicago would put them in the best position, all-else-equal.

My only point (and probably that of others writing favorably about CLS) is that, if OP strongly prefers CLS for location/fit/whatever, they wouldn't be shooting themselves in the foot for clerkships as would be suggested if we were only looking at the LST numbers.

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby JerseyState98 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:03 am

Wow it is actually crazy how helpful everyone has been; I really appreciate all of your insights.

One last thought. I guess I wanted to clarify my goals a little bit more and maybe that would help. There's certainly a decent part of me that thinks clerking would be super fun but even if thats true it would only be for a limited time of my life (you don't clerk forever). So I guess the point of doing a clerkship in mind would be to open up some doors that normally wouldn't be available to me if I had just done BL or at least give me a leg up for things like an AUSA type position or something regulatory. I know this also sounds like PI to some extent but I am more interested in the type of career where I spend big chunks of my time both in private practice but also doing more government style stuff (which on my understanding you need to focus on BL first).

To get even more basic my end goal is to make money and doing something worthwhile even if I have no idea exactly what that is. Sorry for rambling and again thanks so much for everything!

Necho2

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Re: Clerkship Thoughts: CCN

Postby Necho2 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:52 am

jsnow212 wrote:
Necho2 wrote:
I'm pretty sure CLS/NYU probably offers stronger connections to the best 2nd Circuit judges (how could they not?) so if the preference trend for OP is expressly focused on clerking in NY-->BL in NY, that's a point in their favor. But if it's more clerking and then winding up at a great NY firm, I would still push back against a narrative that CLS offers objectively superior outcomes.

Also as an FYI (if my weird numbers at the top of the post don't make this clear) Chicago doesn't rank and has a strange 16X-186 grading scale that makes things even tougher, though I suspect most BL firms are perfectly capable of creating a macro to calculate GPAs based off regardless...


Agree with the bold. If OP is deadest on clerkship-or-bust, UChicago would put them in the best position, all-else-equal.

My only point (and probably that of others writing favorably about CLS) is that, if OP strongly prefers CLS for location/fit/whatever, they wouldn't be shooting themselves in the foot for clerkships as would be suggested if we were only looking at the LST numbers.


Yep, then totally agreed.



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