Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

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harryfei

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Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby harryfei » Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:02 pm

This is only hypothetical at the moment, unfortunately, as I've only been admitted into Cornell and have been waitlisted by the other four. However, I wanted to get some thoughts on how to choose between them in case that I do get off one or more of these WLs and have to act quickly!

My goal is to get into biglaw – no specific area yet. I'm an international applicant, with some ties in New York City (studied and been working here), but don't really mind working in another major legal markets like Chicago, LA, or DC. For law school, I prefer an urban setting to a suburban or rural one, but not a must. I'm LGBT+ and almost 30, if these things matter.

Cornell offered me some money. Suppose I get offered admission and comparable money from the other schools, which one should be my first, second, etc. choice? Is there even a considerable difference between these schools for my purposes?

I like Duke and Cornell's biglaw+federal clerk stats (with Duke > Cornell), Northwestern's location, and Berkeley's slightly higher prestige and nice CA weather. Michigan is probably last on my list now.

I would really like to hear some thoughts. Thanks!!

cavalier1138

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:05 am

My thoughts are that I'd need to know specific numbers to even hazard a guess. What are your current stats, and exactly how much money is Cornell offering?

harryfei

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby harryfei » Sat Apr 06, 2019 3:35 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:My thoughts are that I'd need to know specific numbers to even hazard a guess. What are your current stats, and exactly how much money is Cornell offering?


My stats are 172/3.7 (AA for int'l). Cornell is offering me 75k.

objctnyrhnr

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby objctnyrhnr » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:21 pm

harryfei wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:My thoughts are that I'd need to know specific numbers to even hazard a guess. What are your current stats, and exactly how much money is Cornell offering?


My stats are 172/3.7 (AA for int'l). Cornell is offering me 75k.


Sounds like an underperformance. How late did you apply?

harryfei

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby harryfei » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:44 pm

objctnyrhnr wrote:
harryfei wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:My thoughts are that I'd need to know specific numbers to even hazard a guess. What are your current stats, and exactly how much money is Cornell offering?


My stats are 172/3.7 (AA for int'l). Cornell is offering me 75k.


Sounds like an underperformance. How late did you apply?


I submitted all my applications around 1/31. I have also been waitlisted at Harvard, Columbia, and Penn. I didn't list them since it's fairly clear to me where I'd want to go if they offered me admission. I have an MA with excellent grades earned in the U.S. and some non-legal WE, but otherwise weak softs. How much do you think the late submission affected my application outcomes?

QContinuum

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby QContinuum » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:53 pm

harryfei wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:My thoughts are that I'd need to know specific numbers to even hazard a guess. What are your current stats, and exactly how much money is Cornell offering?


My stats are 172/3.7 (AA for int'l). Cornell is offering me 75k.

Did you attend college in the U.S.?

Overall, I'd recommend that you reapply early next cycle. Applying in February (okay, January 31st) is extremely late and puts you at a substantial disadvantage as law school admissions is rolling. You should see much better results if you apply next cycle before November.

harryfei

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby harryfei » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:37 pm

QContinuum wrote:
harryfei wrote:
My stats are 172/3.7 (AA for int'l). Cornell is offering me 75k.

Did you attend college in the U.S.?

Overall, I'd recommend that you reapply early next cycle. Applying in February (okay, January 31st) is extremely late and puts you at a substantial disadvantage as law school admissions is rolling. You should see much better results if you apply next cycle before November.


No, I did not go to college in the U.S. I've thought about re-applying next cycle, but the best outcome would likely just be Columbia or NYU. Although I'm waitlisted by Harvard this cycle, it's probably just dumb luck; they've rejected a lot of better applicants. Do you think it's worthwhile to delay a year to get into CLS or NYU?

cavalier1138

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:58 pm

harryfei wrote:
QContinuum wrote:
harryfei wrote:
My stats are 172/3.7 (AA for int'l). Cornell is offering me 75k.

Did you attend college in the U.S.?

Overall, I'd recommend that you reapply early next cycle. Applying in February (okay, January 31st) is extremely late and puts you at a substantial disadvantage as law school admissions is rolling. You should see much better results if you apply next cycle before November.


No, I did not go to college in the U.S. I've thought about re-applying next cycle, but the best outcome would likely just be Columbia or NYU. Although I'm waitlisted by Harvard this cycle, it's probably just dumb luck; they've rejected a lot of better applicants. Do you think it's worthwhile to delay a year to get into CLS or NYU?


I think you're looking at significant money all over the T13 (assuming they count you as a URM, but even if they don't). That's why people are recommending you reapply. Your numbers should have gotten you scholarship offers at all these schools, not just Cornell. They should be fighting over you, and unless there's something you haven't mentioned about your app, it sounds like the late timing was the main issue.

harryfei

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby harryfei » Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:10 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
I think you're looking at significant money all over the T13 (assuming they count you as a URM, but even if they don't). That's why people are recommending you reapply. Your numbers should have gotten you scholarship offers at all these schools, not just Cornell. They should be fighting over you, and unless there's something you haven't mentioned about your app, it sounds like the late timing was the main issue.


I don't think LGBT counts as URM, or does it? I'm also Chinese, a group probably over-represented. My softs are weak. And I didn't write any "Why X" essay (a side effect of applying late). But I agree that the main issue was the late timing.

From another perspective, however, is the fact that Cornell only offered me 75k saying something, or could that have also been affected by the late timing? I just looked at a few Cornell admits on LSN with similar stats, and they got between 75k and 105k, but not higher.

QContinuum

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby QContinuum » Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:42 pm

harryfei wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
I think you're looking at significant money all over the T13 (assuming they count you as a URM, but even if they don't). That's why people are recommending you reapply. Your numbers should have gotten you scholarship offers at all these schools, not just Cornell. They should be fighting over you, and unless there's something you haven't mentioned about your app, it sounds like the late timing was the main issue.


I don't think LGBT counts as URM, or does it? I'm also Chinese, a group probably over-represented. My softs are weak. And I didn't write any "Why X" essay (a side effect of applying late). But I agree that the main issue was the late timing.

From another perspective, however, is the fact that Cornell only offered me 75k saying something, or could that have also been affected by the late timing? I just looked at a few Cornell admits on LSN with similar stats, and they got between 75k and 105k, but not higher.

Asians and Asian-Americans are not considered URMs for law school admissions purposes. "AA" on TLS refers to African-Americans, who are considered URMs for law school admissions purposes and receive a significant "boost" to their admissions prospects over non-URMs.

harryfei

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby harryfei » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:02 pm

QContinuum wrote:
harryfei wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
I think you're looking at significant money all over the T13 (assuming they count you as a URM, but even if they don't). That's why people are recommending you reapply. Your numbers should have gotten you scholarship offers at all these schools, not just Cornell. They should be fighting over you, and unless there's something you haven't mentioned about your app, it sounds like the late timing was the main issue.


I don't think LGBT counts as URM, or does it? I'm also Chinese, a group probably over-represented. My softs are weak. And I didn't write any "Why X" essay (a side effect of applying late). But I agree that the main issue was the late timing.

From another perspective, however, is the fact that Cornell only offered me 75k saying something, or could that have also been affected by the late timing? I just looked at a few Cornell admits on LSN with similar stats, and they got between 75k and 105k, but not higher.

Asians and Asian-Americans are not considered URMs for law school admissions purposes. "AA" on TLS refers to African-Americans, who are considered URMs for law school admissions purposes and receive a significant "boost" to their admissions prospects over non-URMs.


Yeah, I know. That's why I was wondering why cavalier1138 assumed that I was URM. And I think Asians/Asian-Americans might actually be over-represented.

cavalier1138

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:50 am

harryfei wrote:That's why I was wondering why cavalier1138 assumed that I was URM.


I misinterpreted your prior reference to "AA" in the thread; didn't realize it was referring to your GPA rating, because most students who didn't go to U.S. schools don't have 4.0-scale grades to report. I still think you should be looking at better options, but I'm not 100% sure how different an AA rating is from a 3.7.

harryfei

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby harryfei » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:11 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
harryfei wrote:That's why I was wondering why cavalier1138 assumed that I was URM.


I misinterpreted your prior reference to "AA" in the thread; didn't realize it was referring to your GPA rating, because most students who didn't go to U.S. schools don't have 4.0-scale grades to report. I still think you should be looking at better options, but I'm not 100% sure how different an AA rating is from a 3.7.


Oh, I see how my "AA" reference could be confusing. I wasn't aware it was used more commonly to mean African American. You are right that international GPAs are not reported to LSAC, and are considered more like a soft by law schools. My 3.7 number is evaluated by WES (World Educational Services).

I agree that I would be looking at better options reapplying next cycle, but I'm not convinced that it would be worth it. I'm also almost 30, so age is a factor. Anyway, I haven't made my final decision, but I'm leaning towards taking on Cornell's offer.

landingparachute

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby landingparachute » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:12 am

Hey Harry,

You are not alone!! Fellow international Chinese student here. Also got a 170+ (the only score), and a "Superior" on my international GPA evaluation. I got a LL.B. from China and have been working for a US Biglaw's Asian office for approximately a year after graduation from college. RoLs are above average. Also LGBT.

I applied late in the cycle as well (early February actually), got 75k from Cornell and 85k from UCLA. Rejected by UVA (...) waitlisted by Penn (heard rumors they are not so friendly to international Chinese applicants), Michigan (This I don't understand! I wrote my why Michigan essay and recommender is a distinguished alumni), and Reserved by Columbia (can't complain). I am still waiting for decisions from other schools but honestly as May is approaching I am not sensing a good/lucky vibe here.

I've talked to some of the senior associates and partners at our firm and they encouraged me to take the Cornell offer if my goals are NYC biglaws. Cornell have one of the best NYC biglaw placement stats. I reached out to some of the Cornell graduates in our NYC office, all of them spoke highly of the school - most of them mentioned how the small-size community helped them go thru the stressful 1L. There's no way telling if that's pure survivors' bias talking, of course. I've considered sitting out for this cycle but my mentor/close friend (a senior associate formerly in NYC now in HK) talked me out of it.

Fingers crossed for better news!! DM me if you wish to discuss further.

harryfei

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby harryfei » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:59 am

landingparachute wrote:Hey Harry,

You are not alone!! Fellow international Chinese student here. Also got a 170+ (the only score), and a "Superior" on my international GPA evaluation. I got a LL.B. from China and have been working for a US Biglaw's Asian office for approximately a year after graduation from college. RoLs are above average. Also LGBT.

I applied late in the cycle as well (early February actually), got 75k from Cornell and 85k from UCLA. Rejected by UVA (...) waitlisted by Penn (heard rumors they are not so friendly to international Chinese applicants), Michigan (This I don't understand! I wrote my why Michigan essay and recommender is a distinguished alumni), and Reserved by Columbia (can't complain). I am still waiting for decisions from other schools but honestly as May is approaching I am not sensing a good/lucky vibe here.

I've talked to some of the senior associates and partners at our firm and they encouraged me to take the Cornell offer if my goals are NYC biglaws. Cornell have one of the best NYC biglaw placement stats. I reached out to some of the Cornell graduates in our NYC office, all of them spoke highly of the school - most of them mentioned how the small-size community helped them go thru the stressful 1L. There's no way telling if that's pure survivors' bias talking, of course. I've considered sitting out for this cycle but my mentor/close friend (a senior associate formerly in NYC now in HK) talked me out of it.

Fingers crossed for better news!! DM me if you wish to discuss further.


Wow, I hope you get better news, but we're definitely in the same boat now! Given your circumstances, though, I have to say it would make more sense for you (than me) to reapply next cycle. I will DM you!

landingparachute

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby landingparachute » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:17 am

Got your message. I can't seem to DM anyone. Wired. Sure, add my wc:yaheenltblby

QContinuum

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby QContinuum » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:03 pm

landingparachute wrote:Got your message. I can't seem to DM anyone. Wired. Sure, add my wc:yaheenltblby

New users are able to receive private messages (PMs) immediately, but can't send PMs until they've made at least 5 posts.

landingparachute

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby landingparachute » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:44 pm

QContinuum wrote:
landingparachute wrote:Got your message. I can't seem to DM anyone. Wired. Sure, add my wc:yaheenltblby

New users are able to receive private messages (PMs) immediately, but can't send PMs until they've made at least 5 posts.


Gotcha. Thanks.

icansortofmath

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby icansortofmath » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:56 pm

I think Cornell is best choice on the list unless you want to be in California or Chicago for some reason.

That or you don’t want to be in Ithaca. In which case, hope for Berkeley.

harryfei

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Re: Cornell, Northwestern, Duke, Berkeley, or Michigan

Postby harryfei » Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:09 am

icansortofmath wrote:I think Cornell is best choice on the list unless you want to be in California or Chicago for some reason.

That or you don’t want to be in Ithaca. In which case, hope for Berkeley.


Thanks. I was just told by Berkeley that I was ranked in the 4th quartile of their waitlist, so that's out.



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