Darrow v HLS - Help! Forum

[initfortheBiscuit]

Hi Everyone,

Any advice would be greatly appreciated: I've narrowed down my decisions to the Michigan Darrow ($$$$+$) or HLS with no aid (due to not having access to some parental information). A non-parental relative has offered to pay my living expenses at HLS (a maximum of 3K/month) which would equal out to about the max aid that HLS tends to give anyway. The total debt-burden for HLS all said and done would be around $260K.

I toured Mich and fell totally in love! I tour HLS next week. I have no ties to either the Midwest OR the Northeast. Given my interest and debt-aversion I feel completely torn!

I'm interested in doing a clerkship -> international, private Big Law -> potentially academia down the line. I'm not very concerned about prestige, but recognize that if I'm serious about doing international work then prestige might be a factor in hiring.

I love Mich but worry about my placement options for international firms. On the other hand, I'm debt-averse and worry about the limitations such a high debt-burden would place on my life/career freedom. Help!

[The Lsat Airbender]

What do you mean by "international, private Big Law"? Like, depending on what you have in mind, the best option might be deferring for a year and learning Cantonese.

Anyway the answer is obviously the Darrow here. A quarter million in debt would be questionable even in a vacuum.

[QContinuum]

Congrats on your terrific offers!

IMO Michigan's an easy choice here. HLS is worth more than Mich, but most certainly not $260k more.

Also, to the extent HLS' name makes a big difference for international work, the difference is mostly significant for international law/human rights-esque work. International offices of U.S. BigLaw firms will recognize Michigan's strength (as well as the rest of the T13). Be aware that the work done in international offices is mostly capital markets, is not particularly glamorous, and is often viewed as being less sophisticated than the capital markets work done in New York. It's generally advised that U.S. J.D.s begin their career in New York - much easier to go from NY BigLaw to, say, London or Hong Kong than the reverse.

[Yugihoe]

Congrats on your terrific offers!

IMO Michigan's an easy choice here. HLS is worth more than Mich, but most certainly not $260k more.

Also, to the extent HLS' name makes a big difference for international work, the difference is mostly significant for international law/human rights-esque work. International offices of U.S. BigLaw firms will recognize Michigan's strength (as well as the rest of the T13). Be aware that the work done in international offices is mostly capital markets, is not particularly glamorous, and is often viewed as being less sophisticated than the capital markets work done in New York. It's generally advised that U.S. J.D.s begin their career in New York - much easier to go from NY BigLaw to, say, London or Hong Kong than the reverse.

This is pretty spot on. If you're looking to do big law and regular corporate/litigation work, there won't be a noticeable difference between the two schools. What you will notice, however, is when you're making fat stacks in exchange for crushing big law hours, whether that high salary is going into your pockets or to loans.

Honestly, having no debt offers more opportunities because you will be more inclined to take risks or lower paying jobs. Would take Darrow and not look back.

ETA: If by "international, private big law" you mean some niche field like international arbitration, note that (1) those very few big law spots are for people with some sort of international experience and language skills and (2) you may not get that anyway. If you mean international work like FCPA/investigations where you get to travel for depositions, several firms do this and they take students from all the top schools. What QContinuum said about international corporate work (capital markets) is spot on and easy to get from anywhere. I get emails literally every week from recruiters looking to fill these spots.

[QContinuum]

Honestly, having no debt offers more opportunities because you will be more inclined to take risks or lower paying jobs. Would take Darrow and not look back.

ETA: If by "international, private big law" you mean some niche field like international arbitration, note that (1) those very few big law spots are for people with some sort of international experience and language skills and (2) you may not get that anyway. If you mean international work like FCPA/investigations where you get to travel for depositions, several firms do this and they take students from all the top schools. What QContinuum said about international corporate work (capital markets) is spot on and easy to get from anywhere. I get emails literally every week from recruiters looking to fill these spots.

Completely agreed and thanks for adding the info about international arbitration and FCPA/investigations!

[The Lsat Airbender]

Hate to be this pessimistic, but another big problem with trying to get into foreign cap-markets work right now is that Brexit is threatening to upend that market, especially for monolingual English speakers. Conceivably, all the major players might freeze London hiring and start transitioning to Frankfurt or something.

In other words: even if you went to HLS you'd have a substantial possibility of not being able to get biglaw outside of the US, especially without fluency in one of the big Eurasian languages.

[QContinuum]

Hate to be this pessimistic, but another big problem with trying to get into foreign cap-markets work right now is that Brexit is threatening to upend that market, especially for monolingual English speakers. Conceivably, all the major players might freeze London hiring and start transitioning to Frankfurt or something.

In other words: even if you went to HLS you'd have a substantial possibility of not being able to get biglaw outside of the US, especially without fluency in one of the big Eurasian languages.

This is a good point. I don't think London BigLaw will close up shop overnight even if there's a (admittedly likely) "hard" Brexit, but certainly very conceivable they slash/freeze hiring and headcount in favor of offices in Brussels or Frankfurt.

HK BigLaw is also increasingly hard to get for monolingual English speakers. There's a ton of PRC J.D. students in the U.S. who target HK - more than enough to fill up those slots.

[Qtc]

Michigan does a decent job of placing students into academia but there are not nearly as many opportunities as at HLS. There are lots of fellowships etc. If you are not sure about academia and really don’t want debt, you can’t go wrong with Michigan. HLS probably has better resources but it’s also bigger

[QContinuum]

Michigan does a decent job of placing students into academia but there are not nearly as many opportunities as at HLS. There are lots of fellowships etc. If you are not sure about academia and really don’t want debt, you can’t go wrong with Michigan. HLS probably has better resources but it’s also bigger

I think one, OP isn't gunning for academia - they're gunning for BigLaw. They are "potentially" interested in academia post-BigLaw but that is so speculative and far in the future that I don't think we should give it much weight. Certainly it doesn't outweigh paying an extra $260k to attend HLS.

Two, I think the academic placement numbers are in large part due to self-selection. Hiring committees look primarily to scholarly potential, as evidenced by publication record and research agenda. School prestige is critical, yes, but it's more of a yes/no thing than a means of distinguishing candidates from each other. A Michigan J.D. easily satisfies the prestige requirement.

[initfortheBiscuit]

I just wanted to say thank you all SO much for your responses - it definitely clarified a lot for me. 0Ls get so caught up in the rankings and have such a blind-spot when it comes to actual outcomes beyond 1st year of graduation starting salary/placement that it can feel like you have no real-world context. Not to mention we go to ASWs together and become a giant, collective USNWR echo chamber.

I guess if I'm being honest I'm not entirely sure what I mean when I say "international BigLaw" other than I want the opportunity to work/live overseas. Preferably that would look like helping overseas companies come into the US and helping US companies navigate varying legal frameworks in foreign countries.

Michigan does a decent job of placing students into academia but there are not nearly as many opportunities as at HLS. There are lots of fellowships etc. If you are not sure about academia and really don’t want debt, you can’t go wrong with Michigan. HLS probably has better resources but it’s also bigger

I think one, OP isn't gunning for academia - they're gunning for BigLaw. They are "potentially" interested in academia post-BigLaw but that is so speculative and far in the future that I don't think we should give it much weight. Certainly it doesn't outweigh paying an extra $260k to attend HLS.

Two, I think the academic placement numbers are in large part due to self-selection. Hiring committees look primarily to scholarly potential, as evidenced by publication record and research agenda. School prestige is critical, yes, but it's more of a yes/no thing than a means of distinguishing candidates from each other. A Michigan J.D. easily satisfies the prestige requirement.

You are spot-on in calling me out a little here - academia is more of a fleeting speculation, but not quite fleeting enough that I wasn't still worried about potentially "closing the door" to it by attending Mich. Your comment have assuaged most of my fears!

I loved Michigan and the only thing holding me back was this fear of closing potential doors by not attending HLS - it doesn't sound like I would be missing out on too much except a quarter-million dollars of debt

If anyone in the HLS camp would like to make a case for why it's worth the debt, I'd be interested to hear your perspectives!

[Samark45]

If anyone in the HLS camp would like to make a case for why it's worth the debt, I'd be interested to hear your perspectives!

Read the posts in the other recent thread titled "Harvard vs. Columbia vs NYU vs Duke (vs UChicago?)." There's a few posts there that speak to your concerns/interests, specifically.

[QContinuum]

If anyone in the HLS camp would like to make a case for why it's worth the debt, I'd be interested to hear your perspectives!

Read the posts in the other recent thread titled "Harvard vs. Columbia vs NYU vs Duke (vs UChicago?)." There's a few posts there that speak to your concerns/interests, specifically.

But important to remember this OP isn't in quite the same position. Michigan isn't quite CCN, but is a bit above Duke, especially for academia. And this OP also has the Darrow at Michigan, which is a significantly stronger offer than what that other poster had at Duke.

[RedPurpleBlue]

If anyone in the HLS camp would like to make a case for why it's worth the debt, I'd be interested to hear your perspectives!

Read the posts in the other recent thread titled "Harvard vs. Columbia vs NYU vs Duke (vs UChicago?)." There's a few posts there that speak to your concerns/interests, specifically.

But important to remember this OP isn't in quite the same position. Michigan isn't quite CCN, but is a bit above Duke, especially for academia. And this OP also has the Darrow at Michigan, which is a significantly stronger offer than what that other poster had at Duke.

You all emphasize rankings way too much for academia. Everyone emphasizes the tiers HYS, CCN, and then the rest of the T14 (sometimes even more divided), when the real implications are pretty much as follows scored from 1-10: Y (10), HS (9), CCN (8.5) T14 (7.5). Yeah, there might be a decent number of tiers for there being only 14 schools but all the tiers are pretty much meaningless.

[QContinuum]

If anyone in the HLS camp would like to make a case for why it's worth the debt, I'd be interested to hear your perspectives!

Read the posts in the other recent thread titled "Harvard vs. Columbia vs NYU vs Duke (vs UChicago?)." There's a few posts there that speak to your concerns/interests, specifically.

But important to remember this OP isn't in quite the same position. Michigan isn't quite CCN, but is a bit above Duke, especially for academia. And this OP also has the Darrow at Michigan, which is a significantly stronger offer than what that other poster had at Duke.

You all emphasize rankings way too much for academia. Everyone emphasizes the tiers HYS, CCN, and then the rest of the T14 (sometimes even more divided), when the real implications are pretty much as follows scored from 1-10: Y (10), HS (9), CCN (8.5) T14 (7.5). Yeah, there might be a decent number of tiers for there being only 14 schools but all the tiers are pretty much meaningless.

Sorry if I was unclear. I think earlier today or yesterday I expressly said in another thread that prestige was more of a "yes/no" question for academic hiring, and much less of a way of differentiating between candidates. It's "does the candidate have a T13 J.D.?" and if yes, then "how strong is the candidate's research ability?" looking at the candidate's publication record, research agenda and job talk. I think a T20 J.D. would hurt a candidate - I wouldn't say precludes a candidate, but would certainly be an extra hurdle to overcome.

That said, Michigan has historically had a particularly good reputation in academic circles, which is what I was trying to get at in my previous post. I certainly think it's correct to say that Michigan with a Darrow is stronger than the other poster's non-full-ride Duke offer.